Unlimited electric power discovery

[Steve220]

I have always thought electricity from solar panels was the direction to go for pollution free energy. The Sun contains free energy for the taking, if you can find a way to convert it to electricity at a low cost. But here is a question I have thought about during the past year.
What if, for some reason, a breakthrough in solar panel design caused a, say 95% conversion of electrictiy from Sunlight? Not only that, but the material and construction of the panels came out to only a few dollars per square foot, then a flood of pollution free cheap high output panels hit the marketplace almost overnight.

All of a sudden there would be unlimited amounts of electric power. What would be the fate for existing forms of energy production? Would this throw millions of people out of work or create millions of new jobs, or both? World wide economic damage beyond repair, world wide wealth for everyone, a economic boom, economic bust?
What would be the social costs? More wars, less wars, no wars, heaven on earth, global destruction? Over population to the point of wars over food instead of oil? Praise for the inventor of the panels, a rope and a tree for the inventor of the panels?
Just what would happen? I think it is a valid question. It is one of those "be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it" questions.

If you look at most of the discussions regarding alternative energy, they always seemed to be based on the struggle to increase the availability of energy, with no discussion of what happens if you actually do increase the availability of energy beyond anything you could ever dream of.

Then what happens? I think this is something that is missing from the whole area of alternative energy. I think a special page should be included on the Renewable Energy web site for just this very important discussion.

I would be interested in hearing different points of view about this important subject. Thanks steve220

[boguslaw]

Current economy is based on ill concepts.

[Bill H]

Ok..I'll throw my 2 cents in here Steve. The way I see it is "Big Oil" runs the world, they have the governments wrapped around thier finger. That's where suppression of technology comes in. The government knows there is technology out there to make solar panels more efficient, so they suppress it..they decide to not allow patents for solar panel efficiency of over 18 percent I think it is, and limit all the big manufactures to this through tax incentives etc. after all "Big Oil" will look after the government if it looks after them.
So here we are in our forums looking for breakthroughs...and we find them, Then it it up to us...what do we do? If we raise too big a deal about it, then the "Men In Black" make us disappear??? Or we decide that we have what we need and we just disappear from the forum and look after ourselves? Or in the perfect world we try to get the technology to as many people in the open source communitity as we can and slowly more and more people will make thier own energy and "Big Oil" will be left out to dry.
As you can see there is no way change will happen overnight as long as "Big Oil" and the Government have the power over the People.
We need to make the change...But it won't be easy.
Bill H.

[Joit]

Current economy is based on ill concepts.

I agree with you here, Reasons, see at Posting #1

[Stealth]

Many inventors(experimenters) have built self running and even overunity devices. The problem comes when they either try to patent ir, or start their own company buiding these systems. It simply want be allowed to continue. Those in power have too much control, and can stop it whenever they want. The one way to get around this si open source. Or buid one for yourself, then family and friends. Soon they will tell other people about it and the word will spread.It is when they try to make a business out of them that the authorities step in. They are not concerned about a few,but they don't want them to become available to the general populace. It would be a boom for business, as more people would be buying these panels, or any other proven technology repacing or lessening electric power and their bills. Open source seems to be the route. Good Luck. stealth

[Roland]

I believe there are companies right now selling free energy devices. The impact of these devices will depend how fast they catch on. If a cheep device catches on too fast it could have Major negative effects on first world country's, and positive effects on third would country's.

I believe these devices are already here, and they are popping up more and more frequently. At this point I don't believe they can stop the cheep/free energy revolution. But i do believe they will try to slow it down to a acceptable pace. Bloom Energy is a example of a device that has had it's performance choked back not to disrupt the economy. (just Guessing)

I think if someone did something amazing and demonstrated free energy that got pickup by the major news and witnessed by millions, that it would be discredited with no holds bared. Men In Black style. Those folks would wish they where not born.

The times they are a changing, like it or not. And just like the Buggy Whip somethings will become part of the past.

[wayne.ct]

More Energy would be a Good Thng

If done right it would improve the economic well-being of the world, because the world economic system runs on energy. If done wrong there are a million things that can go wrong. I think the best plan is using open source wisely and be careful to not get greedy.

[Steve220]

Interesting comments

I would like to thank those who responded to my question. I know it is not a hot topic, however I do think it is an important topic of discussion.

I really do think there will be a huge breakthrough resulting in the production of unlimited electric power soon that will change the world for ever. But I do wonder if it will be a good change or a bad change.

I think it is human nature to be locked into a struggle for survival from birth to death. It seems to create a mind set of always being at a loss and trying to make up the difference through either hard work or some other means.

So to think in terms of unlimited amounts of electric power does not even compute for most people. It makes no sense to even talk about because it is never going to happen anyway.
So any discussion of it, is for the most part dismissed as empty talk and so back to the grind stone and try to squeeze a few more miles per gallon of gas in some new car engine car, a new econo watt light bulb design, reinsulate your attic.

So what if something really does come along that makes all that struggle nul and void? A complete exercise in futility. Is the human mind able to shift gears fast enough to cope with such a change? From all kinds of limits on power production, to no limits at all?

I do think it is a important question and maybe a renewable energy web site is not the proper place to discuss this topic because most of these kind of sites, I found, are designed around the struggle to increase the production of energy or reduce the consumption of energy and not deal with unlimited energy. Unlimited energy production, without the struggle.

I also understand that the struggle can give meaning to life. Sometimes people relate struggle to a meaning for their existance.
Struggle= self worth. No struggle= no self worth.
Some people can not deal with a life without a fighting the day to day battle to just exist. If there is no battle to wage, they just fall apart.
No inner peace, just a external struggle for existance.

Some people may or may not be able to cope in a world with unlimited power production.

I hope to receive more thought on this subject and maybe also be able to find a better place to discuss this important topic.

Thanks, Steve220

[Stephen Brown]

Good - Bad?

But I do wonder if it will be a good change or a bad change.

Good - Bad?
I guess it depends on your point of view.

Good: ?
Oil cartels exploiting the world population and causing incredible pollution.
Nuclear energy, clean coal, etc, etc, etc!

If that's the paradigm your worried about getting rid of then you are still in the embrace of human nature.
We would rather stick with the devil we know than face change.
If you are comfortable with change, then you've found the key to this whole place.

I heard a quote once:
Moving into the future, for most people, is like taking a trip across sea, with a leaky boat and a mutinous crew.

Just some thoughts.
Stephen

[Farmhand]

Hi Steve cool topic, My thought's are that when talking of unlimited electric power there will aways be a limit. And that is that at some point storage become's impractical, so the amount of electricity produced will always be limited to how much can be used.

Therefore we will need a lot of hardware to utilise all this Electrical Power. And anyone with no clue how to do it will still need others to help them. Thats if they can convince all the people with the electrical knowhow to do anything because they will have everthing they need almost. Lucky for us hey but not for those who don't dabble in electronics. This hobby could be the best thing any of us has done for ourselve's.

With unlimited electrical power there would be a huge increase in the demand for appliances and equipment the human race would take off through evolution like a bullet through hot butter. What a ride that would be.

I can only imagine.

Cheers

[Neight]

I think it is human nature to be locked into a struggle for survival from birth to death. It seems to create a mind set of always being at a loss and trying to make up the difference through either hard work or some other means.

Interesting that you say that
kind of reminds me of the post on here trying to define the "vacuum" that radiant energy is being pulled from. humans creating an imbalance (dipole) through struggle, that allows new energy (ideas?) to come into the system and make useful for work.
funny how everything seems to relate back to imbalance trying to work it's way back to a balanced state....

personally I think there would be a period of chaos, as usually happens when some new idea is introduced into human existence. you can see examples of that chaos following the muller dynamo work done by romerouk and everyone trying to replicate his work. He has personally been pressured to the point of stepping out of the center of the work being done, and is no longer posting. He was able to stick around long enough to get his information out to the forums, and now the rest are struggling to replicate what he did. the "system" trying to rebalance itself to the status quo has pushed romerouk out of the picture, and stop his work from being realized by the greater public. inversely, his input no longer being given to the upstart system (replicators) has created an imbalance that they are also trying to fill by completing the work and spreading the word. the two systems are clearly at odds with one another right now, and I have no doubt that one side will come out the victor (and we can only hope that the replicators will succeed and things may actually have a chance at changing!)

I believe it is more than worth the risk of chaos to change the current system. Imagine if "free energy" were realized and spread like wildfire to the world. as has been pointed out, this would cause a blow to first world countries as the balance of power switches from big energy to the common person in their own home. third world countries would benefit, but there you also have an avenue for mass chaos, depending on who is in control of those countries.
but imagine life on the other side of this particular struggle...
you no longer have to pay money for "comfortable" modern living. you can generate your own power, heat, and networks. depending on how resourceful you are, you could even start to live without having to be employed by someone else. grow your own food, tend a small amount of livestock. have your own water well and live your life without the need for someone to provide these things for you. (picture little house on the prairie but with electricity )
instead of being a slave to a job to pay bills, you could support yourself and your family and do it on your own terms. what currency you do have can be used for gain, and not in a struggle to simply keep up. and with this new found freedom, I believe people would have the time and energy left over to make further improvements to the system as a whole!

while we do have to consider the ramifications to the world at large with these new ideas, we cannot forget that the possible gains on the other side could be very well worth the struggle in the meantime. humanity has always been able to adapt, and thrive in the face of oppression and adversity. life will find a way as the saying goes. it's time to stop following the path of least resistance and carve our own path forward. stop other people from having control over your day to day functions and live a life where the struggle you face benefits you, and not the company you pay to bring you the things you want. people being more self sufficient is always a good thing in my personal opinion.

I hope all of that made some sense, and thanks for starting this topic Steve220, I think some interesting conversation could result from it
N8

[Steve220]

Interesting that you say that
kind of reminds me of the post on here trying to define the "vacuum" that radiant energy is being pulled from. humans creating an imbalance (dipole) through struggle, that allows new energy (ideas?) to come into the system and make useful for work.
funny how everything seems to relate back to imbalance trying to work it's way back to a balanced state....

personally I think there would be a period of chaos, as usually happens when some new idea is introduced into human existence. you can see examples of that chaos following the muller dynamo work done by romerouk and everyone trying to replicate his work. He has personally been pressured to the point of stepping out of the center of the work being done, and is no longer posting. He was able to stick around long enough to get his information out to the forums, and now the rest are struggling to replicate what he did. the "system" trying to rebalance itself to the status quo has pushed romerouk out of the picture, and stop his work from being realized by the greater public. inversely, his input no longer being given to the upstart system (replicators) has created an imbalance that they are also trying to fill by completing the work and spreading the word. the two systems are clearly at odds with one another right now, and I have no doubt that one side will come out the victor (and we can only hope that the replicators will succeed and things may actually have a chance at changing!)

I believe it is more than worth the risk of chaos to change the current system. Imagine if "free energy" were realized and spread like wildfire to the world. as has been pointed out, this would cause a blow to first world countries as the balance of power switches from big energy to the common person in their own home. third world countries would benefit, but there you also have an avenue for mass chaos, depending on who is in control of those countries.
but imagine life on the other side of this particular struggle...
you no longer have to pay money for "comfortable" modern living. you can generate your own power, heat, and networks. depending on how resourceful you are, you could even start to live without having to be employed by someone else. grow your own food, tend a small amount of livestock. have your own water well and live your life without the need for someone to provide these things for you. (picture little house on the prairie but with electricity )
instead of being a slave to a job to pay bills, you could support yourself and your family and do it on your own terms. what currency you do have can be used for gain, and not in a struggle to simply keep up. and with this new found freedom, I believe people would have the time and energy left over to make further improvements to the system as a whole!

while we do have to consider the ramifications to the world at large with these new ideas, we cannot forget that the possible gains on the other side could be very well worth the struggle in the meantime. humanity has always been able to adapt, and thrive in the face of oppression and adversity. life will find a way as the saying goes. it's time to stop following the path of least resistance and carve our own path forward. stop other people from having control over your day to day functions and live a life where the struggle you face benefits you, and not the company you pay to bring you the things you want. people being more self sufficient is always a good thing in my personal opinion.

I hope all of that made some sense, and thanks for starting this topic Steve220, I think some interesting conversation could result from it
N8

Well said, thanks.

[wayne.ct]

Recommendation

Perhaps you might find the ideas of Peter Joseph and Jacque Frescoe (sp?) of interest. They have been in the news quite recently. Peter Joseph is associated with the Zeitgeist Movement and Jacque runs the Venus Project. You'll find them on Google, etc.

[Iotayodi]

grow your own food, tend a small amount of livestock. have your own water well

About 400 Million people in the states. Around 50 million live in rural areas. Lets leave it like that! There are 4 towns in my county. The population of the whole county is less than 25,000. We keep corporate growth at bay. We are mainly agricultural and cattle with some phosphate mining. Local landowners and cattle ranchers want to keep it that way.

[Neight]

About 400 Million people in the states. Around 50 million live in rural areas. Lets leave it like that! There are 4 towns in my county. The population of the whole county is less than 25,000. We keep corporate growth at bay. We are mainly agricultural and cattle with some phosphate mining. Local landowners and cattle ranchers want to keep it that way.

we live in very similar areas it sounds like and i couldn't agree more, I would very much like it to stay that way. I don't like cities and i really don't like huge metropolitan areas, my ideal home would be some land out in the country with a lot of trees and a little bit of room to farm for sustenance. I like having room to roam, and quiet...

my point was mostly that if you give people the power to make their own power, we are not likely to be slaves to the corporations and governments. there will be more freedom for everyone to do what they choose to do, and not just do something because they have to make enough money to pay for power and comfort. life would be better for everyone if things got a whole lot simpler. it might be a bit harder for some than others, but people will adapt