Pulse motor circuit - strange effect ?

[Slider2732]

I seem to have encountered a bizarre effect, with a pulse motor built yesterday.
Rather than clutter the Romero/Muller thread(s) with this, i've decided to ask for help in understanding the circuit in this new thread.
The summary of what is happening, is that the 1F supercap used in the circuit, will charge up on 1 wire only, then run the circuit without any external power for 16 minutes and more, depending on how I have the magnets configured on the rotor.
With the right configuration, the times extend hugely, by many minutes and in the final minutes the rotor adopts a push effect, sending it around in a visibly pulsed fashion.

This is my first such motor, though have 25 years electronics experience and normally my field is within modifications to micro R/C aircraft. I also have history here with plasma speakers,wireless energy and Tesla tower design.
So i'm attempting to understand what is happening here and also to ascertain whether such a run is completely normal.

If the supply voltage is less than 6V, the rotor stops after about 5 revolutions when power is removed.
If the voltage is 6V and greater, then the capacitor charges and displays the long run effect.
During charge, my non too exacting analog meter displays 5.5V on the capacitor. Any time after 2 minutes of powered running, the circuit will carry on without power, displaying the long run effect.
Nothing gets warm anywhere (which may indicate still low efficiency) all the way to 12V.
In the videos there is a 1000uF 16V cap also present, but it was simply left there in situ during tests before the effect was noted and video taken.
I only disconnected the other wire to the full wave bridge rectifier to perform slow down tests and, then, one time it just carried on running ! so I grabbed the camera.

So, I present the circuit diagram that was made with an online drawing prog, found here: Online free circuit design iENK Electronic Trade Factory
Please do forgive errors of etiquette, i'm a hands on type, rather than illustrator mathematically or with software.

First video.
Running with 3 small neodymium magnets, found within the laser assembly of 2 old CD-Rom drives. It shows the assembly, before the hoped for BEMF section was added.
Spoken notes on effects within the video:

YouTube - Pulse Motor - 3 magnet experiment


Second video.
When it carried on running by surprise and trundled along for 10 minutes.

YouTube - Pulse Motor - 10 minute run - no power in


Thoughts anyone ?

My theory is that the pulses are released by the transistor, into the relay and capacitor, but that the waveform from the collapsing field of the relay is AC. This would allow the capacitor to charge through the now half wave diodes rectifier. It would be similar to the Tesla one wire AC power transmission.
There may be no collapsing field collection...after all, i'm new to all this Bedini type work and have much to understand.


I've tried to present the circuit diagram as it is seen within the second video.

[Neight]

Not sure what is happening in your videos, but they were very interesting! I wonder if you evenly spaced those magnets on a bit bigger rotor if it would keep running smooth longer, instead of pulsing faster then slowing down like you had at the end of the 10 minute run video? just an idea i had while watching.
I am new to all of this as well, and would like to start experimenting with caps on the input. i have a 3f cap that I would like to play around with, but I am not sure how to plug it into the input and run the output back to it... plenty more to learn and I look forward to watching where this thread goes, maybe I will learn a thing or two
thanks for posting and I hope you get your answers
N8

[Slider2732]

Thanks N8
There are many principles and calculations that I feel i'm catching up on...you guys have my deepest respects for the work you put in !

Supercaps will normally take a long time to charge (relative to standard circuit 100uF electrolytic say) and then their output will run a digital watch for a day or something. Things have always broken down in usefulness for myself, when trying to apply such energy to any motor.
There are aircraft that can run for a few seconds on supercaps (Air-Hogs did a few some years back) but even those were 1.5V very low output power motors. Indeed though, even they may indicate nothing untoward is happening here ?
Thing is, with an LED straight across and not decoupled from the supercap, the rotor stops within half a dozen rotations and then the LED just sits there glowing.

I know i'm charging via the pulses from the collector. An LED doesn't light until the rotor spins. So, really, is anything coming from the relay coil to create the long runs or is it the pulse charging from the Collector doing everything ?
If there's no energy being collected from the relay, because of the one wire situation..then how come with 2 normal wires from the relay to the FWBR the rotor spins down after 3 minutes maximum ?

I'll try a larger rotor and hopefully much more. This is after all my first one and it's just hotglued to the table lol

[Slider2732]

Well chaps. here we have pointers to a possible further use of the simple circuit - rejuvenation of batteries, like the Bedini ones apparently do.
I say 'apparently', because a recent full day of experiments completely following the Bedini schematic produced a non runner for me. My parts are all salvaged from broken bits of electronics though, that's why i built up my own circuit.

Went outside to the shed to find a larger diameter rotor, or indeed a hard drive that I could gut and put a CD on top of.
I found a 6V sealed lead acid battery, one of those kiddie bike/car hand sized things. It had been unused by me through not charging any which way I tried and it had been found during 'Minnesota Clean Up Week' on the street, during 2006 or 2007, before we moved to Oklahoma.
For a laugh, I connected it to the circuit, instead of the 1F capacitor.
The circuit rotored around at 6V for 5 minutes into the battery.
It's now been running from the 6V dead battery for many minutes and continues on as i'm writing this post!!!

[Neight]

Well chaps. here we have pointers to a possible further use of the simple circuit - rejuvenation of batteries, like the Bedini ones apparently do.
I say 'apparently', because a recent full day of experiments completely following the Bedini schematic produced a non runner for me. My parts are all salvaged from broken bits of electronics though, that's why i built up my own circuit.

Went outside to the shed to find a larger diameter rotor, or indeed a hard drive that I could gut and put a CD on top of.
I found a 6V sealed lead acid battery, one of those kiddie bike/car hand sized things. It had been unused by me through not charging any which way I tried and it had been found during 'Minnesota Clean Up Week' on the street, during 2006 or 2007, before we moved to Oklahoma.
For a laugh, I connected it to the circuit, instead of the 1F capacitor.
The circuit rotored around at 6V for 5 minutes into the battery.
It's now been running from the 6V dead battery for many minutes and continues on as i'm writing this post!!!

I do know from my own tinkering that it takes more than a standard SSG to desulfate an old battery like that. it is interesting that you are getting your simple circuit to work from that dead battery though. sounds like it is efficient enough to run from what little power is in there...
I have 4 of those 6V batteries here that i would like to work with. I don't have the exact components that you have (relay and transistor) but perhaps if i can find something to work from, I could replicate what you have and see if my batteries will do the same thing. I do have a 3F cap that I would like to use also. I am thinking of a few ideas to try based on what you have going, and see what i can come up with. not sure when I will get it done, but if i find anything interesting on it, I will be happy to share!
thanks for posting!
N8

[Slider2732]

Please do replicate, because...
It's STILL RUNNING lol

I started watching the time at 16:26 to time how long a 5 minute charge up would run it for.
Got a short video, edited that, uploaded it to YouTube and here it is:
YouTube - 6V batt - rejuvenated - own circuit

It's now 17:32 and the thing is, it seems mildly quicker now than at the start!
I'm saying nothing, except it could be really efficient and the circuit be using say 5mA, as my meter seemed to show (it's only an analog needle thing though). The battery could have been charged up well enough for this length of a run...I dunno.

I picked the transistor because of its low saturation voltage and low output maximum from the Collector of 100mA. I felt that any pulse motor wouldn't need 100mA and so the lowliest type of transistor would 'do'. I'd imagine a very common 3904 or something would work.
The relay came off some random circuit board. I connected just to the 2 contacts of the coil.
Either which way, the battery never could light even an LED previously.

[Neight]

i need to get some hall sensors, all i would have to work with atm is a bifiler coil, and I do not know what the draw of a hall sensor compared to a trigger coil would be. if i can come across a hall sensor to use, I will see what i can come up with.
are you still leaving the other lead coming off of the coil unused?
if so, maybe try hooking it directly to the cap or the battery and see if that doesn't feed some power back into the system, rather than through the FWBR and stop the rotor from spinning. I have no idea if this suggestion is even applicable, as i am still very new to circuitry, but if it works better only using half of a FWBR, and you have a loose lead, it seems like it's possible to feed some energy from the coil back to the cap or battery and extend the run time that much longer.

what was the initial voltage of the 6V you are using, was it flat dead, or did it have a charge still sitting on it? it seems odd that if you left it sit for several years unused that it would not be sulfated to the point of being nearly useless.
either way, pretty interesting and I hope to find a hall sensor and see if I can make anything happen

regards
N8

[barbosi]

Slider,

I have redrawn your schematic the way it made sense to me, so you may confirm or use it to do corrections. By the way, a better program for schematics and is free (for non-commercial purposes) is Eagle from CadSoft. It has all the symbols you need and you can use it for PCB design too.

I found one or two unorthodox things which I prefer not to comment (it might be the magic you search to explain). There are few things though with I hardly can make sense:

1. The "Ground" symbol at the negative terminal of polarised Cap (C1) is the Earth Ground? is the minus of battery?

2. Why would you want to discharge the polarised cap with the triac? If the "Ground" is connected to battery minus, then you put a short on battery too.

Could you please clarify? You may alter my attached picture if you feel it helps you.

Regards.

[Slider2732]

Thanks Neight...(i've emailed Neight btw with some info, wasn't ignoring the fella)

Thanks for the schematic barbosi
As you may well have summised, I ran out of room to link the cap back to the negative of the power supply...but that's what it is.
The circuit looks correct, but the cap is feeding into the power input connections, which I hope clarifies.
Is Eagle PC software ? I'm running Lubuntu Linux here, cos my PC is from 2002

In truth - forget the cap and put a 6V or 12V lead acid battery on the circuit in its place. You'll see why, when independent testing with metered readings has been performed

[downunder]

Slider,

I have redrawn your schematic the way it made sense to me, so you may confirm or use it to do corrections. By the way, a better program for schematics and is free (for non-commercial purposes) is Eagle from CadSoft. It has all the symbols you need and you can use it for PCB design too.

I found one or two unorthodox things which I prefer not to comment (it might be the magic you search to explain). There are few things though with I hardly can make sense:

1. The "Ground" symbol at the negative terminal of polarised Cap (C1) is the Earth Ground? is the minus of battery?

2. Why would you want to discharge the polarised cap with the triac? If the "Ground" is connected to battery minus, then you put a short on battery too.

Could you please clarify? You may alter my attached picture if you feel it helps you.

Regards.

1. I am not sure about the earth ground symbol, however I would guess that it means "connect to the battery negative" in this case.

2. I believe Slider used the triac symbol to represent the two diodes being used in a bridge rectifier with only one AC leg connected. This should act just like an Avramenko plug, and I attached a modified copy of your schematic to show what I think Slider wanted to show.

Please correct me if this is wrong.

[seth]

Thanks for the great thread slider!

Im sorry to interrupt!

Some very intelligent questions being asked which I dont want to distract anyone from. I have a much more basic question which will demonstrate my lack of knowledge and experience with basic electronic circuits

Is the L1 coil which is pulsing the main rotor a 24V relay coil (with the dust cover taken off, right?) ?? i.e you didnt wind your own coil? I'm almost convinced that the answer is yes, but ive never worked with any relays before so im very unfamiliar with them (i have the wiki page up right now)

Thanks a lot for the advice concerning freecycle and an old PC - if the coil is just the coil from a relay switch, then all of these components can be found in most old PCs. A very cheap device, and ideal for replications - lets go!

[Slider2732]

Thanks for the correction to the schematic downunder and sorry again barbosi...it was what seemed to fit, from the circuit symbols on that online circuit designer
It is indeed a 'happen chance' AV plug, that started as a FWBR, til the circuit ran better with only 1 wire connected from the coil
Well, we have it straightened out !

Yep Seth, just a regular 24V relay uncased. It was on my workbench and I needed a coil. Taking apart a PC monitor, I found another that matched, so knew it was 24V. 12V might work, different transistors most probably will. The resistor is there because I blew up many I/R receive LED's in levitation circuits a while back...so didn't trust the Hall sensor to a full 12V.

The whole story, is that I had attempted a Bedini circuit the previous day, to learn about such things and to try out a pulse motor at the same time. i couldn't get the circuit to work, so redid it in a very simple fashion from what I understood.
With following the Romero/Muller thread with much interest at both forums, I used the 1N4148 based FWBR method, as it had worked so well for my micro Tesla towers. The understanding there was that the collapsing coil was an AC voltage.
The supercap i'd been using would run the circuit for about 1 1/2 minutes and up to 3 minutes if I got the magnets positioned correctly...but...3 or 4 or 5 magnets could be used.
N8 suggested a different rotor in his posts and that sent me out to the shed to look for hard drives etc to stick a CD on. That idea came from Lidmotor's wonderful work in many videos. I found the 6V lead acid battery while in there and connected it in place of the supercap.
I'd watched many video's by Imhotep, then by that mechanic guy who builds circuits on YouTube (looks like the 1980's version of UK TV host Jeremy Beadle) and from many folks on here, so that was how the battery method came about.
The battery had been dead since we moved from Minnesota in 2008 and i'd found it during a 'Clean Up Week' they have up there, just on the street.
It charged up in 5 minutes @6V, though I actually don't know if I mistakenly put it on 12V for a minute, which would be similar to the old cobweb busting method of Ni-CD batteries. Anyway, after 5 minutes I switched off at the wall to check magnet alignment (I found they just stick on to the sides of a processor fan rotor).
The thing kept running !
I decided to time it.
It kept running.
It carried on running all night on it's own and then I made videos of it powering a fan and running an exciter circuit.
Left a day to see if the battery lost power again, i've tested it just now and it spins up a PC fan fine. Appears to have charged very well.

There's a 12V car battery that was similarly dead, for 1 1/2 years, that i've been working with since. It was tried in repulsion and, while that has worked to bring it back to life, the battery hasn't held on to any more charge perhaps than the 12V adjustable wall adapter has given it. It would appear to have desulphated, it will run the circuit longer each time the wall adapter gets switched off, but hasn't been as responsive as the 6V battery yet.
So, i've altered the magnets to the same configuration now as the 6V system and running in attraction, anticlockwise spin.

So, you see, this is a team effort, from all of us, where I seem to have stumbled on something very effective from watching everybody else. I don't have test equipment above a scope that is old and I don't know how to use well and an analog needle meter that quits at 250mA. No claims, no anything, it's only a pulse motor circuit from a newbie to the scene.
Until the rest of the team independently confirm. That's you guys

If all goes well, it'll be known as the White Crow circuit.
I name anything with a 'W', it all started with Wardenclyffe and Jimboot asking me to say Wensleydale on camera lol. Built a Tesla tower called Wensleydale and 'W' has featured on the 'Walgreen' and 'Windsor' micro tower designs.

[Slider2732]

I ought to mention, that the circuit is following a very bad practice, presumably. The charge battery is directly connected to the input from the wall in initial powering. That's why I say about the only power coming out of the car battery being from whatever the wall adapter gave it.
Also, that there is a KBP206 FWBR rectifying the wall adapter voltage, because my adapter is horribly AC spiked and won't run anything without doing that. Maybe that's the trouble for the car battery...0.3V drop at least from doing that, if they are Schottky's in the rectifier.

*edit* circuit tamed...i've put a 1N4007 between the charge battery and Positive power source in. The effect is to disallow raw wall adapter voltage to the charge battery. It's going to knock the power down by 0.7V about, but is a fix to that problem when using higher input power than supercaps or a battery would use. No idea if I needed to do that.


Here's the car battery.
First pic, as it was in situ abandoned.
Second pic, my wife showing the 1V it had left on it.

What do you reckon, ever seen a better candidate for rejuvenation ? lol

[Slider2732]

And another post.

Here's an update video, after the 1N4007 diode was connected. I left it to run, with the 12V wall adapter connected for 30 minutes. Switched off at the wall.
I was going to try a 13.5V wall adapter, to rid the problems of the 12V maximum from the wall.
Took the video below, with the fan running.
I then tried to flat the battery with the fan and that started at 11:35am. Gave up at 11:40, because it was running exactly the same and the rotor speed hadn't changed at all.
Take from that experience what you will

YouTube - Car battery update

[Zooty]

Slider, did you keep the original magnetic strip inside the fan hub?