Charging Batteries vs. Capacitors

[nilrehob]

[ Moved here from http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post140897 ]

Maybe there is a thread about this, if not, there should be:

When replacing batteries with capacitors and/or vice versa
just keep in mind they are not the same.
In its basic form caps are plates storing charge and batteries are chemical.
It is my belief that batteries charge from voltage and capacitors from current
so their behavior is quite different and they can not replace each other in every situation and give the expected result.

If it is the case, that batteries charge from voltage and capacitors from current, then, if possible,
caps should be charged in series and batteries in parallel,
which means the TS work well with batteries but not so well with caps.

If it is the case, it also means that the chant
"to prove OU replace the batts with caps or its a hoax"
is just plain stupid (or just a smart way of diversion).

/Hob

[nilrehob]

Well,if batteries are charged from voltage and at the same time are sources of big current though low voltage then maybe we could mix two processes : draining battery using load at high current low volts and charging battery using high voltage high frequency ? If part of load is generator of high voltage and high frequency that may work (if battery not explode of course).
Maybe it is the secret of "zero amps" technology ? In fact lead acid battery looks like a capacitor also with fairy huge metal plates.

Isn't this just what a multi-coil SSG does?

/Hob

[boguslaw]

Yes, SSG also. And Aviso car...

[Farmhand]

I think the Zero Amp tech is mostly a scam, like every good scam there is some truth in there.

Have a look at 2:50 mins to 4:15 mins he is supposed to measuring the input current just after measuring the output current.


YouTube - Demonstration of Peter Sumaruck's "Zero Amp Tech"

I don't think that is how the input current should be measured. Why would he do that ? Except to deceive. There is no load on the motors and they are syncronous is all. At one point near the beginning The narrator says he is setting the parameters of the controller but it looks to me like he is just watching the little display till something comes up to charge.

He is likely recycling his losses. As well as some other tricks.

If he won't tell how he does it then why bother.

I don't get that either. If he wants to keep his secret why tell or show anybody anything. Is it to distract or to make money.

Very suspicious

[Farmhand]

I can't comment on the phisics but charging and power transfer seems to be more efficient because of numerous different reasons that change during normal operation of things. Voltage and current will always go together.

With batteries and voltage spike's there is still very high peak current for a very brief period isn't there ? Same with voltage spikes and caps. But the nature of the voltage spikes allows "extra" stuff to happen.

High current continuous DC seems to be brutal to things with heat. But can current itself damage caps ?

A oscillator in parallel with a 12 volt source that is part of a 24 volt source (2x 12v in series) which runs a load to pass current back to the 12 volt source the oscillator is running from ? Does that make sense ? I'm not sure.

I'll make a sketch soon and post it here. Here it is.
http://wv3rsa.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

Maybe there should be a cap on the oscillator source battery. The effect of doing this shoud be to make the source's into loads aswell as sources. Seems simple. But I admit it might not be.

Edit: here is a revised sketch,
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

do you guys think something like this could work ? Paralleling Caps and Batts. Dunno seems like it could work maybe not OU or over cop 1 but ! Is that vital ?

Sorry to seem off topic and maybe I am, but I think some of these things are relevent. There will always be amps but they can go both ways.

Cheers

Edited with sketch

[NickZ]

@ Farmhand:
I was thinking that it might work better to combine both caps and batteries. As both caps and batteries have different ways of absorbing the energy and efficiently storing it, and then releasing it.
I'm working now on doing the above, only using capacitors, and cement batteries cells as a source, to run led lights, either direct or through Hartley type oscillator circuits.
I have not much luck connecting a Captret style or regular parallel capacitor system using 4 or more caps, to cement batteries. I will try connecting the caps all in series next, and see what happens. I probably need to get the right type of storage capacitors, for that to work as intended. But, I'm trying to see if there really is any benefit to the combination of using both caps and batteries for storage and feed-back purposes.
I'm hoping that connecting a Hartley type oscillator circuit to a cement battery bank, will help to feed-back some power back into the battery cells. And therefore keep the battery's output from dropping under load.
Anyway, that is what I'm working on now.
NickZ

[Farmhand]

@ Farmhand:
I was thinking that it might work better to combine both caps and batteries. As both caps and batteries have different ways of absorbing the energy and efficiently storing it, and then releasing it.
I'm working now on doing the above, only using capacitors, and cement batteries cells as a source, to run led lights, either direct or through Hartley type oscillator circuits.
I have not much luck connecting a Captret style or regular parallel capacitor system using 4 or more caps, to cement batteries. I will try connecting the caps all in series next, and see what happens. I probably need to get the right type of storage capacitors, for that to work as intended. But, I'm trying to see if there really is any benefit to the combination of using both caps and batteries for storage and feed-back purposes.
I'm hoping that connecting a Hartley type oscillator circuit to a cement battery bank, will help to feed-back some power back into the battery cells. And therefore keep the battery's output from dropping under load.
Anyway, that is what I'm working on now.
NickZ

Hi Nick, Sounds like a good line of experiment, the theory I'm going by is the batteries keep the levels and the caps collect and give out the energy, all things being equal but if not the batteries could give charge temporarily. Such as at startup. I would start the oscillator first to prime the 24 volt section or the higher voltage section it could be 2.4 volts over 1.2 or anything really. Anyway priming that if the batteries are already charged before starting the motor would fill the big cap and raise the 24v batteries voltage to above usual resting voltage. Then the motor could be started and when it started to pass current that would fill the cap and raise the voltage of the single battery. if the oscillator frequency/output is determined by the motor power draw it would be recirculating without drawing on or trying to charge tha batteries.

The 0.5v drop from the diode's should keep the caps at a higher voltage than the battery. I imagine.

I think it could work. The more efficient the setup is the less external power would be needed for continuous operation.

Cheers

[boguslaw]

I can add to the list : Magnacoaster, Kunel
Yes, Farmhand I believe it may work, but I prefer much simpler circuit. Just one or two batteries in parallel as a source of high current low voltage, then oscillator (kind of) charging caps in parallel. Caps negative terminal connected to negative of batteries and maybe to ground.Positive of caps via switch and load to the positive of batteries.Caps charged to 400V, discharged via load to the battery at chosen rate.I've tested it in small scale and it really charges battery that way.Of course no OU in small scale ,because the key is in oscillator size and high current (generating radiant energy when stopped).
It may be not OU still ,but a way to amplify power during small period of time. Imagine a 500W-2000W device run for a couple of minutes from 2 dead lead acid batteries at the cost of 100W initial charge.
Adding more large caps and complex electronics may end up with Aviso circuit.

[Farmhand]

I can add to the list : Magnacoaster, Kunel
Yes, Farmhand I believe it may work, but I prefer much simpler circuit. Just one or two batteries in parallel as a source of high current low voltage, then oscillator (kind of) charging caps in parallel. Caps negative terminal connected to negative of batteries and maybe to ground.Positive of caps via switch and load to the positive of batteries.Caps charged to 400V, discharged via load to the battery at chosen rate.I've tested it in small scale and it really charges battery that way.Of course no OU in small scale ,because the key is in oscillator size and high current (generating radiant energy when stopped).
It may be not OU still ,but a way to amplify power during small period of time. Imagine a 500W-2000W device run for a couple of minutes from 2 dead lead acid batteries at the cost of 100W initial charge.
Adding more large caps and complex electronics may end up with Aviso circuit.

Sounds good, that should work to. I am getting a cap bank together to try mine, I already have 120 000uf at 35 volts (8 x 15 000uf caps) and I just ordered another 120 000uf I should be able to use only 35 volt if I use some other higher voltage caps to buffer the bank I'll charge the cap banks across the batteries from smaller 400v caps and SCR or something to damp the spikes. My bedini Energiser has a problem with it's wheel (worn out) so I need to find and adapt a new rotor for it. One with a shaft that rotates to take a generator.

Then maybe I can drive a Van De-Graff machine real cheap from the SSG. For fun. Haha.

I'm trying to get a small Quadbike frame to and a electric motor to propel it.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Ok Guys, What would happen in this circuit ? How much charge would C5 take on ? reletively, or something I don't know how to put that. Anyway maybe it won't work but why ? I dunno it doesn't seem even.

I'm thinking of Neon Sign Transformer with more rated output than input. And how do they do it ? Could it be something like this.

Edit: Note C5 is grounded to 12 volts.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...se..jpg?psid=1

I had to ask it was bugging me.

Cheers

P.S. I realise the Mosfets won't switch properly like that I was just enquiring about what charge C5 would take on if the fets switched properly with the correct driver. The circuit above is a quick variation of this one below just so I could ask.
http://wv0v9q.bay.livefilestore.com/...err.jpg?psid=1

[Farmhand]

Hi Guys, I think this drawing below can work. I set it all up hap-hazard and ran it without caps, (got some video) just to see it working. So i'll try to get a neat enough setup to see it all and compare with batts and caps and just batts and then I will see what happens if I disconnect the series batteries while it is running. Motor is a regular DC small one in series with a 270uH coil and switching the negative with a mosfet. Like the drawing but one motor one coil then switch. Motor draws 1 amp full power on 12v. But I have it restricted to about 0.5Amp minimum from 12v. Works pretty good by the looks of it.

http://wv3rsa.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

Cheers

[Slider2732]

I think you guys are talking my kind of language
If you see my recent thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ge-effect.html
There was a problem, in that it was my first ever pulse motor. Having no idea about these, i'd begun to trial a Bedini circuit, from videos online. Couldn't get that to work, so built my own circuit. It's a lot like the way Farmhand and you other guys are looking at the charging and directly relates to the Romero thread.
In my case, I had a 10 minute run from a 1F capacitor, but only when a certain 'balance' point was attained with the magnets/coil placements.
Here was that video: YouTube - ‪Pulse Motor - 10 minute run - no power in‬‏
Turns out that my FWBR had become an AV, when I disconnected one of the wires during tests.
Interestingly too, that was in repulsion, flinging the magnets away. Later tests have produced a 16 minute run as the best to date from that capacitor, in attraction mode. 2 minutes charge up, 15 minutes run. The circuit is now unstuck from the table (was hotglued) and now sits on a piece of cardboard. 3 more have been built and are being tested.
Capacitors have been noted to pulse no matter what the magnet configuration, speeding the rotor up and then relaxing back say half a dozen times in a minute - is that their chemical nature or the circuit ?

But, stick a 6V lead acid battery on the same circuit instead of the cap and things become very cool indeed.
A deceased 12V lead acid car battery has charged up off the circuit, if left connected to the wall adapter at 12V..though the little system hasn't been able to cope with maintaining that charge and improving it, with the transistor/wiring/diodes/magnet placement or whatever that need to be tweaked for that. It might never do a 12V, but it does do 6V.

So, I think that caps and batteries are different. My circuit hasn't been able to continuously run a cap in the same way as a battery. A voltage doubler doesn't work on mine to improve performance it seems, but that was another route of thought if we have the voltage to current differences to consider, with both types of powering.

[Farmhand]

I think you guys are talking my kind of language
If you see my recent thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ge-effect.html
There was a problem, in that it was my first ever pulse motor. Having no idea about these, i'd begun to trial a Bedini circuit, from videos online. Couldn't get that to work, so built my own circuit. It's a lot like the way Farmhand and you other guys are looking at the charging and directly relates to the Romero thread.
In my case, I had a 10 minute run from a 1F capacitor, but only when a certain 'balance' point was attained with the magnets/coil placements.
Here was that video: YouTube - ‪Pulse Motor - 10 minute run - no power in‬‏
Turns out that my FWBR had become an AV, when I disconnected one of the wires during tests.
Interestingly too, that was in repulsion, flinging the magnets away. Later tests have produced a 16 minute run as the best to date from that capacitor, in attraction mode. 2 minutes charge up, 15 minutes run. The circuit is now unstuck from the table (was hotglued) and now sits on a piece of cardboard. 3 more have been built and are being tested.
Capacitors have been noted to pulse no matter what the magnet configuration, speeding the rotor up and then relaxing back say half a dozen times in a minute - is that their chemical nature or the circuit ?

But, stick a 6V lead acid battery on the same circuit instead of the cap and things become very cool indeed.
A deceased 12V lead acid car battery has charged up off the circuit, if left connected to the wall adapter at 12V..though the little system hasn't been able to cope with maintaining that charge and improving it, with the transistor/wiring/diodes/magnet placement or whatever that need to be tweaked for that. It might never do a 12V, but it does do 6V.

So, I think that caps and batteries are different. My circuit hasn't been able to continuously run a cap in the same way as a battery. A voltage doubler doesn't work on mine to improve performance it seems, but that was another route of thought if we have the voltage to current differences to consider, with both types of powering.

G'day Slider, You might like this setup then.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tor-drive.html

Good to see so many people are getting such good results. Exciting time's.

I like caps and batteries but batteries are a pain that is for sure.

Cheers

P.S. I've watched a few of you're vids a while ago, you do good work. We all seem to be inspiring each other on to better things. It's very encouraging.

[Farmhand]

Hey Guy's, I'm back on topic ! But not sure this will make sense. I've been looking and thinking and scratching my head, and I am wondering if the capacitor is a good (source) of current, while a battery is a good (source) of voltage, being that it is easier to change the voltage of a cap than a battery but it is easier to get heavy current from a cap. I'm going backwards I know.

Seems to me to be charged the battery needs both as does the capacitor but in different mixture's, the best result for both in parallel would encompass a bandwidth of co-operative behavior or effects/reaction.

What do you guys think ? I'm thinking there is a time factor there too, like from minute to minute or hour to hour as well as "near instantanious".

Cheers

[wings]

Hi Guys, I think this drawing below can work. I set it all up hap-hazard and ran it without caps, (got some video) just to see it working. So i'll try to get a neat enough setup to see it all and compare with batts and caps and just batts and then I will see what happens if I disconnect the series batteries while it is running. Motor is a regular DC small one in series with a 270uH coil and switching the negative with a mosfet. Like the drawing but one motor one coil then switch. Motor draws 1 amp full power on 12v. But I have it restricted to about 0.5Amp minimum from 12v. Works pretty good by the looks of it.

http://wv3rsa.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

Cheers

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"ok guys let me tell you how this idea come to my mind

i am a scientist and have worked on various project in starting of this year(2009) one of my friend ask me to develop a UPS /inverter with extended backup power operating on 12volt battery coz power cuts are too much now a days in his country

i give him an idea that just like if you are driving a car on a highway on staright road you can save fuel by just neutral the car for some time and get it back on gear after some time due to inertia car will remain in movement for some time
like wise we can use the hysteresis curve (retentivity of magnetic force) in transformer in the same way, we can call it magnetic inertia. I develop the circuit and its working the backup of the same 1KW UPS extended by 60 % now its operating for 6 hours before it use to last in 4 hours this is a good product for solar panels as well

the same friend ask me to develop voltage stabilizer in low cost that was only possible if i some how finish the use of transformer from the stabilizer
so i thought of siphon and designed the stabilizer which can increase the voltage without transformer so we can save the cost of transformer. copper is getting expensive day by day.

i developed the stabilizer successfully

while we conduct tests we realize that the input voltages are 30 at 1.5 yielding 220 with 0.7 amps
i was not at all designing any thing related to over unity or perpetual motion but the efforts for some thing else turned into what we have now

even if we do not think of any thing else this device can work as a transformer less A/C voltage stabilizer by all means

Ali"