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  • The Challenge...perpetual energy

    I would like to submit to the Physics community a proposal for Perpeptual Energy. Now usually when a bonafide physicist catches wind of a nutjob claiming perpetual energy; it is commesurate to blood in the water, the sharks come calling.
    However, to establish a common ground let me first say that while I am not a physicist, I do understand the laws of physics very well. And I know that this has been said countless ways, all of them valid in their own perspective however the laws of thermodynamics are essentially this; 0. there is a game. 1. You can't win. 2. The best you can do is break even. 3. The only way to break even is at absolute zero.
    Now I will present my idea, the mathematical theorem, and the actual numbers plugged into the theorem to prove its validty. To save time I will do my utmost to argue your points for you so that you do not have to waste your keystrokes or breathe as it were.
    The idea is simple, combine photovoltaic cells with Light Emitting Diodes, to exchange light for electricity in a perfect balance. The mathematical theorem is as simple as the pythagorean theorem and is none less valid. Led input - PV output = 0. Now I know immediately that this is how you feel. How many times do we have to go through this?
    Now let me argue your points for you. OK, Shawn let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that there is a new solar cell just invented that is 100% efficient and it is connected to a revolutionary LED just created that is 100% efficient. Now lets even say that they are connected with a superconductor (that does not require power hungry machines). Let's even say that we placed all this inside a 100% reflective box so that no light is lost. Even with all this do you not understand that light carries heat and that some of that heat would be absorbed into the mirrors therefore depleating the whole process until it completely shuts down? To put it bluntly, you are wasting your time. Hopefully, I have argued your point well enough. And I completely agree that [(Led input i pv ouput = (0) or (+1)] I.E. to break even or acheve over-unity is NOT possible through and increase of efficiency.
    Now as to not waste your time I will share with you my viewpoint. I beleive that both "breaking even" and "overunity" can be achieved through electrical manipulation. Gentlemen, we have been approaching this problem from the wrong perspective. I will explain how this can be acheived if you will simply keep reading.
    I have actually run this experiment at my house with a reflective box lined with solar cells. I used a 200 watt LED that at 6 amps put out 16,000 lumen. This 16,000 lumen caused the solar cells to put out 670 milliamps. A small recap 200 watts of light (6 amp input) produced 16,000 lumen which produced (670 milliamps ouput). I used 6 amps to produce the light but only created a tenth in ouput, nowhere near perpetual. Now comes the I told you so's. The rational train of thought would be to try to raise the ouput somehow. Yet the only way to raise the ouput is through efficiencies and the best we could do any any circumstance is to get out as much as we put in; 6 amps in and 6 amps out. Yet as previously stated it is a waste of time and NOT possible even at 100% efficiency.
    God grant me the patience to accept the things i can not change, the bravery to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
    If we know that we can not acheive over-unity through an increase in efficiency then why don't we simply "accept the things that we can not change". Yet we need to have the "bravery" to change the things we can." Instead of using the input as the base of comparison/goal what if we used the output as the goal. By raising the voltage on an led you can drop the amperage required. So if we used a high voltage LED at 200 volts and 1 amps it would still produce the same 200 watts required to produce the required 16,000 lumen of light and 670 milliamps of output. A small recap. 1000 milliamps Input produced 670 milliamps ouput. Now this is 67% of perpetual. Does an LED like this exist...yes. Could we make the required voltage...yes by using amorphous silicon to produce the voltage, combined with monocrystalline solar cells to produce the amperage. Now in your head you are probably saying 67% is not even close enough to get a nod from me.
    Alright, let me tempt you once more. what if we used an Led that was 400 volts and 500 milliamps? This would still be 200 watts and still produce 16,000 lumen of light which would still produce 670 milliamps of output. A small reacap: 500 milliamps of input produces 670 milliamps of output. Ladies and gentlemen as once stated to me, "If you deny the laws of physics which have never been proven wrong then you are simply committing the unforgivable sin if wilfull ignorance." I do not deny the laws of physics or thermodynamics, as it were, but this does not break the laws. Yet I ask you is it "Wisdom" to deny the theorem(LED input - PV ouput = +1) and the math which proves it? Is this also not willful ignorance? And I know the burden of proof is on me. However, I would appreciate constructive feedback and focus on the proposal, as well as any assistance in acheiving my goal at a quicker pace, and not my poor spelling, grammer or punctuation. The challenge? If there is a physicist that understands this and agrees and is willing to put their reputation at stake, along with their time, energy and backing then I will share monitary gain, credit and even play second fiddle to all public acknowledgements.

  • #2
    Your logic reminded me of an accounting riddle or joke that my accounting teacher gave us in high school. I couldn't remember exactly how it went so I did a search on the Internet to try and find it, or something similar to share. I never did find the puzzle I was thinking of, but these serve the same purpose. When you figure out what you are trying to say, give us another version of your idea. Maybe then it will make more sense.

    •What's the difference between an accountant and a lawyer?
    The accountant knows he is boring.
    •A patient was at her doctor's office after undergoing a complete physical exam. The doctor said, "I have some very grave news for you. You only have six months to live."
    The patient asked, "Oh doctor, what should I do?"
    The doctor replied, "Marry an accountant."
    "Will that make me live longer?" asked the patient.
    "No," said the doctor, "but it will SEEM longer."
    •The opulence of the front office decor varies inversely with the fundamental solvency of the firm.
    •What is the proof that accountants have no imagination?
    Naming a firm PriceWaterhouseCoopers.
    •A fellow has been learning to be a balloonist and takes his first solo flight. Unfortunately the wind gets up, he is blown off course and is forced to land. He is in a paddock close to a road but has no idea where he is. He sees a car coming along the road and hails it. The driver gets out and the balloonist says, "Can you tell me where I am?'.
    "Yes, of course", says the driver. "You have just landed in your balloon and with this wind you have obviously been blown off course. You are in the on Jim Hubble's farm, 12.5 miles from Boerne. John will be plowing the paddock next week and sowing wheat. There is a bull in the paddock. It is behind you and about to attack you." At that moment the bull reaches the balloonist and tosses him over the fence. Luckily he is unhurt. He gets up, dusts himself off and says to the driver, "I see you're an accountant". "Good Grief", says the other man, "you're right. How did you know that?"
    "I employ accountants," says the balloonist. "The information you gave me was detailed, precise and accurate. Most of it was useless and it arrived far too late to be of any help."
    •How do you know if an accountant is an extrovert or introvert?
    An extrovert looks at your shoes when talking to you, an introvert looks at their shoes when talking to you.
    •A guy in a bar leans over to the guy next to him and says, "Want to hear an accountant joke?"
    The guy next to him replies, "Well, before you tell that joke, you should know that I'm 6 feet tall, 200 pounds, and I'm an accountant. And the guy sitting next to me is 6'2" tall, 225 pounds, and he's an accountant. Now, do you still want to tell that joke?"
    The first guy says, "No, I don't want to have to explain it two times."
    •What's an auditor?
    Someone who arrives after the battle and bayonets all the wounded.
    •If an accountant's wife cannot sleep, what does she say?
    "Darling, could you tell me about your work."
    •There are three kinds of accountants in the world:
    Those who can count and those who can't.
    •There once was a business owner who was interviewing people for a division manager position. He decided to select the individual that could answer the question "how much is 2+2?"
    The engineer pulled out his slide rule and shuffled it back and forth, and finally announced, "It lies between 3.98 and 4.02".
    The mathematician said, "In two hours I can demonstrate it equals 4 with the following short proof."
    The physicist declared, "It's in the magnitude of 1x101."
    The logician paused for a long while and then said, "This problem is solvable."
    The social worker said, "I don't know the answer, but I a glad that we discussed this important question.
    The attorney stated, "In the case of Svenson vs. the State, 2+2 was declared to be 4."
    The trader asked, "Are you buying or selling?"
    The accountant looked at the business owner, then got out of his chair, went to see if anyone was listening at the door and pulled the drapes. Then he returned to the business owner, leaned across the desk and said in a low voice, "What would you like it to be?"
    •How do you drive an accountant completely insane?
    Tie him to a chair, stand in front of him and fold up a road map the wrong way.
    •A young accountant spends a week at his new office with the retiring accountant he is replacing. Each and every morning as the more experienced accountant begins the day, he opens his desk drawer, takes out a worn envelope, removes a yellowing sheet of paper, reads it, nods his head, looks around the room with renewed vigor, returns the envelope to the drawer, and then begins his day's work.
    After he retires, the new accountant can hardly wait to read for himself the message contained in the envelope in the drawer, particularly since he feels so inadequate in replacing the far wiser and more highly esteemed accountant. Surely, he thinks to himself, it must contain the great secret to his success, a wondrous treasure of inspiration and motivation. His fingers tremble anxiously as he removes the mysterious envelope from the drawer and reads the following message:
    "Debits in the column toward the file cabinet. Credits in the column toward the window."
    •Budget: An orderly system for living beyond your means.
    •Saint Peter starts asking him all the usual questions required to get into heaven. The accountant, it seems, has repeatedly helped people cheat on their taxes and embezzle funds. Finally, in exasperation, St Peter asks, "Well, have you ever done anything good, anything totally unselfish and altruistic in your entire life?"
    "Well," says the accountant, "Once I saw this pretty lady being beaten up and about to be raped by a bunch of bikers. So I yelled "Hey jerks, why don't you pick on somebody your own size" and I then kicked all their hogs over, all six of em, and took off running. They forgot about her for a second and she managed to run also. Saint Peter asks, "I'm looking through the book of your life, and I don't see this incident recorded. When did it occur?"
    The accountant replies, "About five minutes ago."
    •What's the definition of an accountant?
    Someone who solves a problem you didn't know you had in a way you don't understand.
    •What's the definition of a good tax accountant?
    Someone who has a loophole named after him.
    •An accountant applies for the position of Chief Financial Officer. There are a number of candidates and he is called in for an interview. They ask him a number of questions and one of the panel suddenly says "What is nine multiplied by four?" He thinks quickly and says "Thirty five."
    When the interview is over he goes outside, takes out his calculator and finds the correct answer is not thirty five. He thinks "Well, I blew that" and goes home very disappointed. Next day he is rung up and told he has got the job. "Wonderful," he says, "but what about nine multiplied by four? My answer wasn't right."
    "We know, but of all the candidates you came the closest."
    •What do actuaries do to liven up their office party?
    Invite an accountant.
    •There was this man that was an accountant for the mob. He happened to be deaf and mute. While working for the mob he collected over $500,000 by stealing from the books. The mob boss finds out about this and sends two hitmen to his house. Since the accountant was deaf and mute his brother translated what his brother said.
    Hitman 1: Where is the money?Accountant signs he does not know
    Brother: He said he does not know
    Hitman 2: Tell us where the money is or we will kill your wife and kids, burn down your house, and castrate you! Accountant signs fast and furiously that the money is in a safe that is hidden in the floorboard of his closet and gives the combination.
    Hitman 1: What did he say?
    Brother: You don't have the balls!
    There is a reason why science has been successful and technology is widespread. Don't be afraid to do the math and apply the laws of physics.

    Comment


    • #3
      400 volt LED!

      Hi shawnnweed,

      When you find a 400 volt Led then maybe you should come back and try again to explain your idea. You claim to know something about physics but it is clear you don't know anything about electronics. There is nothing wrong with thinking about things from a different point of view but you have to have some kind of background to be able to talk intelligently enough to get people to take you seriously. Spend some time studying basic electronics and then try again.

      Good luck, Carroll

      PS Don't forget to find a good source for those 100% efficient solar cells too.
      Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them your enemy. We can disagree without attacking someone.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is possible. Just find a source of light which do not require huge amps. Fluorescent bulb is almost ideal.It was proven to work in close loop with solar panel, not usable but works.

        Comment


        • #5
          citfta

          I really did not expect anyone with a low IQ to grasp the idea simply because they may not know the terminology. But anyone that understands that volts times amps equals watts(which should be any physicist) should understand implicitly. And by the way last year the highest operating direct current voltage for an LED was 46 volts; this year it is 220 direct current volts. So do not say that I am lagging when it comes to knowledge of LED's(electronics). The fact stands that I have come closer to producing a viable source of free energy than anyone in the world, physicist included. How can you NOT take this seriously seeing the numbers. And if you know something I don't that would preclude an LED from being able to operate off of 400 volts and 500 milliamperes when it CAN operate from 220 volts and 1000 milliamperes then please let me know. I'm not opposed to learning. And I did not hear a definitive reason how this would go against the laws of physics...the fact is that it does not. The fact is that 16,000 lumen from any source of light will produce a minimal of 670 milliamperes of output from my set up. Other sources of light, because they are not as efficient, will require higher amounts of wattage to produce 16,000 lumen, however despite the higher wattage a CFL emitting 16,000 lumen will cause the solar cells to produce the same 670 milliamperes. So what is so difficult to understand?

          Comment


          • #6
            bogus law

            Originally posted by boguslaw View Post
            This is possible. Just find a source of light which do not require huge amps. Fluorescent bulb is almost ideal.It was proven to work in close loop with solar panel, not usable but works.
            I had no idea that anyone actually succeeded in closing a loop with CFL's and solar panels. It would be interesting for me to read...is there an article? And if this is true then someone had gotten closer than I have which means I could stand to learn something from him or her. And by the way I figured out How to make 'work' with it since an overage is possible; considering the numbers. If you or anyone you know would be interested in teaming up with me on this project then let me know. I'm always willing to take constructive feedback or learn from a more knowledgeable person. And thank you for taking the time to respond.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shawnnweed View Post
              I really did not expect anyone with a low IQ to grasp the idea simply because they may not know the terminology. But anyone that understands that volts times amps equals watts(which should be any physicist) should understand implicitly. And by the way last year the highest operating direct current voltage for an LED was 46 volts; this year it is 220 direct current volts. So do not say that I am lagging when it comes to knowledge of LED's(electronics). The fact stands that I have come closer to producing a viable source of free energy than anyone in the world, physicist included. How can you NOT take this seriously seeing the numbers. And if you know something I don't that would preclude an LED from being able to operate off of 400 volts and 500 milliamperes when it CAN operate from 220 volts and 1000 milliamperes then please let me know. I'm not opposed to learning. And I did not hear a definitive reason how this would go against the laws of physics...the fact is that it does not. The fact is that 16,000 lumen from any source of light will produce a minimal of 670 milliamperes of output from my set up. Other sources of light, because they are not as efficient, will require higher amounts of wattage to produce 16,000 lumen, however despite the higher wattage a CFL emitting 16,000 lumen will cause the solar cells to produce the same 670 milliamperes. So what is so difficult to understand?
              Hi Shawn,

              Your argument is not valid. You state the obvious, (volts x amps + watts) and apply it to your LED situation. You note that you can spend your 200 odd watts however you like, @ low voltage high amperage, or at high voltage low amperage. But you have failed to apply this to the solar panel. You say that if the light can be powered by 400v @ 500ma for 16,000 lumen, and you will get 620 ma off your solar panel...but at what voltage?

              620ma @ 12v = 6 watts give or take a watt. Are you saying you have 620ma @ 400v coming off your solar panel? If you are really interested in pursuing this avenue I would suggest looking at different spectrums of light, you may find that some light spectrums give better voltage and current off your panel. Have a look at HID lighting (which is even more efficient that LED) and look at all the different Kelvins you can try. Considered some way of re-focusing or magnifiying the light before it hits the panel? Dont have to have any user input for a lens.

              BTW, Tom Bearden wrote recently of a small solar cell that had been tested as over 2 x output for light input, validated by the Department of Energy in America themselves.

              Regards
              "Once you've come to the conclusion that what what you know already is all you need to know, then you have a degree in disinterest." - John Dobson

              Comment


              • #8
                ren

                My argument to you is not valid because you do not grasp how different solar cells work. Solar cells produce .5 or half a volt. It take two solar cells to produce a single volt; 4 solar cells to produce two volts, etc., etc., etc. These can be added up to any amount of voltage you need. I most certainly have never heard of a cap or ceiling to the amount of voltage that a solar panel can produce. If you need 30 volts use 60 pieces. If you need 60 volts use 120 pieces. There is no cap on the voltage. However the amount of milliamperes a solar cells produces is relegated to the size, efficiency and the amount of infrared light produced by the light sources. The larger the cell the more milliamperes they produce. Bottom line...when it comes to solar cells voltage is easy to attain while current (amps) is difficult. So to bluntly answer your question..but at what voltage? Any voltage I require even 200 volts. However, I do not have that much room in my box and this is why I am using amorphous silicon panels to add up the voltage quickly. I have a 1"x1" panel that produces 6 volts from a 300 lumen light source that is 5" away. It's max potential is 7 volts. When you strap these together positive to negative your voltage goes through the roof of course you have no real amperage to run anything that is why you have to combine these with mono or poly crystalline. However, I acknowledge your point; I was so focused in on the amperage because it is the most difficult that I did not mention the output voltage. Yes, I can produce 200 volts and 670 milliamperes.
                And thank you for the suggestion of trying different light sources. I have tried HID, CFL's, Halogen, and Led's of varying wavelengths to include UV and Infrared. The most efficient at producing a current was Halogen then HID. CFL's and LED's pretty much tied. However the reason I went with LED's even though they were the lowest producing on the totem pole was because they are the most efficient at producing great amounts of light with little amperage. And since the panels have difficulty producing amperage to use the other ones would be a dead end. They other light sources would require far more amperage than the panels could ever produce. But the main reason the other sources cause the panel to produce a higher current is due to the amount of heat(infrared light) they produce. Which is a detriment for me because once you get the cells over 100 degrees they start taking a loss in energy. By the time you heat the cells up to 130 degrees F. you have taken a 20 percent hit in energy. The best Kelvin or color temperature to use for my project is between 2600 and 3300. Mainly because of the red phosphors used or infrared light. Mono crystalline absorbs 704(near infrared) nanometer light the most efficiently and polycrystalline absorbs 922(infrared) nanometer light the most efficiently. And there is no need to collimate the light due to the fact that I am trapping the light in a mirrored box. The light that misses the cell will find it's way back to the cell, it has nowhere to go. However, I thank you for your constructive input this time. I really appreciate it when I'm taken seriously because like I said, I'm not a physicist but I'm not ignorant either.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think the argument is why light up an LED with 3V 20mA for the same lumen as 3V 5mA.

                  3V * .02 = .06 watts let's say 3 lumen
                  3V * .005 = .015 watts 3 lumen

                  Let's say 3 lumens gives .001 watts.
                  .001/.06 = .017 = 1.7% efficient
                  .001/.015 = .067 = 6.7% efficient

                  Sure one can light up an LED with little to non current. Dr. Stiffler done it and so does many members in here with the variation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    stop it...lol

                    Originally posted by quantumuppercut View Post
                    I think the argument is why light up an LED with 3V 20mA for the same lumen as 3V 5mA.

                    3V * .02 = .06 watts let's say 3 lumen
                    3V * .005 = .015 watts 3 lumen

                    Let's say 3 lumens gives .001 watts.
                    .001/.06 = .017 = 1.7% efficient
                    .001/.015 = .067 = 6.7% efficient

                    Sure one can light up an LED with little to non current. Dr. Stiffler done it and so does many members in here with the variation.
                    Man you sure do have a good sense of humor.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How this forum manage to attract these strange persons?

                      Some time ago there was one guy who wanted to recreate the electro magnetics theory from scratch. Tried to talk sense into him, did not succeed. Topic died and I believe he has gone nowhere.

                      And now comes this. Over-unity due to higher output current? Seriously?

                      Man, what can I say, stop using these silly diodes, take a nice big old-school electric transformer (step down one, of course). You will be able to get as much as 10 times more electric current out, as You put in. Even more.

                      Meh, If You understand physics, prove it - get a MSc degree in physics. Or technical physics (engineering). Or better - doctor degree.

                      Ok, back to serious stuff.
                      Energy For Free For Everyone! EFFFE!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tehnoman View Post
                        How this forum manage to attract these strange persons?
                        They pop up all time, when there is a Discussion about a unusual Device,
                        with a lot new Topics and Forms with unusual new Ideas, Concepts or Builds.

                        Well pass it is may the best you can do.
                        Theorizer are like High Voltage. A lot hot Air with no Power behind but they are the dead of applied Work and Ideas.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          IMHO You can light CFL with no current if you have it self-made, and using high voltage and high frequency. Basically what I wanted to test (and believe it would work) is to step up 1.5V from a cap (charged from solar panel) or small battery into 400V DC and chopper using mosfet or transistor + coil or big joule thief circuit to kV. CFL's should light with almost no current, but commercial ones are build with kind of suppressor inside on walls (I don't know exactly ) which is the main reason for consuming current.
                          I have no time to test it now (and no solar panel), it's up to you to consider this option.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ooops I meant CFL tube or neon light , not CFL with electronics.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tisk, Tisk, Tisk, Tehnoman

                              Originally posted by Tehnoman View Post
                              How this forum manage to attract these strange persons?

                              Some time ago there was one guy who wanted to recreate the electro magnetics theory from scratch. Tried to talk sense into him, did not succeed. Topic died and I believe he has gone nowhere.

                              And now comes this. Over-unity due to higher output current? Seriously?

                              Man, what can I say, stop using these silly diodes, take a nice big old-school electric transformer (step down one, of course). You will be able to get as much as 10 times more electric current out, as You put in. Even more.

                              Meh, If You understand physics, prove it - get a MSc degree in physics. Or technical physics (engineering). Or better - doctor degree.

                              Ok, back to serious stuff.
                              Really? So you are saying that you alrady created perpetual energy in your spare time but have hidden it from the world? Right and monkeys can fly! Inverting voltage into current or vice versa does not make make more energy only transforms what is already there. You of course already know this but feign ignorance to mock me. And the only thing you will learn in those courses is what is already know. You will learn nothing new unless YOU push the boundaries of what is already know. And what have YOU done in all your wisdom and knowledge to add to or correct a physics book? Inquiring minds want to know?! Let me guess...nothing. Why don't you go take your own 'step down' and 'shut up' class, no...really!

                              Comment

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