Coil Shorting Techniques.

[Zooty]

Ok here is the link to the basic principle of the mag amp. this may not be related to this thread but somehow I feel it is all related to what we are looking for.
Homemade Magnetic Amplifiers.

So basing shorting on this idea, you could do the following to lower the inducatnce of a coil. This idea uses 2 coils. A bias coil and a multifilar type of coil. this could be any coil of at least 2 windings that share a common core.

1. a bias coil is placed up to the rotor.
2. the energy created by this would be A/C. a magamp needs a D/C current. so it should be rectified and fed into a cap or directly....
3. into a winding of another coil, that shares a common core with the main generating coil. This would electrically lower the inductance of the multifilar coil. this coils inductance would be lowered right at the peak as to simulate shorting at the peak. all that is required for the tuning of this "short" should be to move the bias coil into the propper position, so as its energy is timed to bias the main generator coil at the propper time.

The strength of the lowered inductance would be determined by the energy produced by the bias coil, and by the number of turns of the coil it is connected to.

The magamp looks interesting. Is the author claiming ou when he talks about the gain? I could be wrong but the only problem i can see with using this to simulate shorting is how abrupt it will be at the point of shorting. I believe the shorting itself needs to happen as sharp as possible and the short state needs to be of the lowest resistance possible. I am currently looking at ways to do the shorting electronically with transistors or fets. I find reed switches too inaccurate and too difficult to position especially when you want two of them to fire in perfect sync. I am trying to devise something that will detect the peek of a sine wave and trigger a fet at that point.

[Neight]

The magamp looks interesting. Is the author claiming ou when he talks about the gain? I could be wrong but the only problem i can see with using this to simulate shorting is how abrupt it will be at the point of shorting. I believe the shorting itself needs to happen as sharp as possible and the short state needs to be of the lowest resistance possible. I am currently looking at ways to do the shorting electronically with transistors or fets. I find reed switches too inaccurate and too difficult to position especially when you want two of them to fire in perfect sync. I am trying to devise something that will detect the peek of a sine wave and trigger a fet at that point.

I was wondering the same thing, about triggering with a transistor...
I am using a FWBR and my 3 LEDs and a reed switch right now. I put my oscilloscope on the rectified current and the signal was just ugly....
with the scope un-grounded, the wave form is steady but very spiky along the wave, not clean at all. and when i use the scopes ground, it gets really really messy...
all kinds of lines, all ringing at different rates. depending on how close you focus on the wave (hard to call it a wave honestly, it's pretty scattered) the more scattered it gets.
and with the reed switch, if I use a core in the coil, it's like the shorting isn't happening at all. loads of drag...
I have a few hall sensors I have pulled off of PC cooling fans, but they are all 4 pins, and I really don't know how to use one to be honest.
if you come up with something fairly easy to build using transistors, let me know. I had thought about trying bolt's short that minoly posted, I have the components, but I don't have two coils that are not wound bifiler.
I am winding some small coils on sewing machine bobbins right now, I finished one tonight. with the reed switch shorting I can get it to light one LED, but if i use the same rectifier as with the bigger coil, I can't get any light at all from even one LED. also, with this small coil, I get a good amount of drag, even with the coil shorting. lots to learn i guess
If my fingers can stand winding a second coil tonight (i have to wind them by hand, and my finger tips get nearly raw...) I will try to wire up bolt's short and see what I can do with that.
very interesting to say the least.
If I can find the cord that connects my camera to my comp, I will video the scope shots I get and post them on youtube. the cord is in a box somewhere, as I am in the process of moving at the moment...
even though I really have no clue what I am doing, right or wrong, I am having a ton of fun experimenting!

N8

[Zooty]

I tried minoly's circuit and it does work very well, purple flashes on the neon, 300v+ off an air core coil but it caused drag because i couldn't include the ac cap in the circuit. The idea is to get the scope looking like this.

[Steve220]

Roebel conductors

I am kind of surprised that no one is using Roebel conductors in their units. These conductors enjoy wide use in AC generators due to their low loss in alternating magnetic fields.
They work better at the lower frequencies than Litz wire does. Some work has been conducted using powdered magnetic material covered Roebel conductors and have produced better operating coils than using a solid core.
Just an Idea.

[Neight]

progress!

Ok, got a few quick updates...
I am working with the one coil I wound on the sewing machine bobbin.
not sure how many turns is on it, as I lost count
26ga magnet wire is what I used and it's on a small Singer brand sewing machine bobbin.
the coil has to be oriented in the right way or it makes a lot of drag. It looks like I am still using CCW facing the rotor.
still using reed switch shorting trigger.
I used some small nails that are just a bit longer than the bobbin core for my coil core, and I am using a small neo bar magnet as a biasing magnet.
same FWBR though now I am lighting 6 LEDs up over half brightness (I can make them nearly full brightness, but right now I don't have anything to set the coil on that will line it up properly with the rotor (using a soda cap at the moment ).
the most interesting thing about this setup is, with the core and biasing magnet, there is a balance point where the coil will sit still. too close and it sucks to the rotor, and too far and the rotor magnets will push the coil away.
My coil sits perfectly still about 1/2" from the rotor, no need to hold it.
another interesting thing (at least to me ) is with this setup, I get a thumping noise very similar to what I am hearing on the romero/muller machine videos...
not sure if that means anything or not, but to me it says "keep going, your on the right track"
also, with this setup, my scope shot is a lot more clean. it's still messy, and doesn't look like the pics that Zooty posted, though it is getting a bit closer
I will get a video up asap, but my camera cord is still MIA, so it might take me a few days to actually post one, though I am taking video of what I am doing, and will upload when I can.
very interesting work here

N8

Edit: I do get some drag on the rotor with this setup. I am sure it is mostly due to the nails I am using for a core. It's not a lot of drag, but it's more than I was getting with my bigger coil and air core.

[Steve220]

Velcro

N8 sounds good. From what I have seen so far, the key to the R UK device seems to be to use a simple rotor magnet / coil setups to tune in on the sweet spot so as to understand how to make a larger unit later on.

I was thinking of making a simple rotor set up on a Velcro pad that a person could place coils at various positions once a sweet spot has been found by hand. Once a sweet spot has been found for one coil and Velcroed in place, then another coil operated by hand to find another sweet spot and then Velcroed down and so on.

Some of the coil placements I have seen in some devices on You Tube don't make any sense to me, but it must make sense to a magnetic field and thats what counts.

The noise of the R UK device I thought was interesting. Kind of a clunky out of step sound. Not a nice smooth generator sound. Not very fast, but clunky.
Clunky may be good.
Good work, BTW I enjoy our discussions too, thanks. Steve

[Neight]

N8 sounds good. From what I have seen so far, the key to the R UK device seems to be to use a simple rotor magnet / coil setups to tune in on the sweet spot so as to understand how to make a larger unit later on.

I was thinking of making a simple rotor set up on a Velcro pad that a person could place coils at various positions once a sweet spot has been found by hand. Once a sweet spot has been found for one coil and Velcroed in place, then another coil operated by hand to find another sweet spot and then Velcroed down and so on.

Some of the coil placements I have seen in some devices on You Tube don't make any sense to me, but it must make sense to a magnetic field and thats what counts.

The noise of the R UK device I thought was interesting. Kind of a clunky out of step sound. Not a nice smooth generator sound. Not very fast, but clunky.
Clunky may be good.
Good work, BTW I enjoy our discussions too, thanks. Steve

good idea about the velcro pad! I have been using masking tape right now, it works, though it's not perfect by any means...
and I am finding that placement is everything with coil shorting.
Last night, I got it just right for the first time, and was blown away at how well it worked.
using the same small sewing machine bobbin (nail core and small biasing magnet) with a reed switch, I was able to get all 6 LEDs I am using to light up to nearly full brightness, and my rotor was spinning just as fast as I have ever seen it go.
I have ordered a lazer tachometer to actually see some RPM numbers to prove it even to myself, but I know that my rotor was spinning at dang near full speed if it wasn't actually going full speed.

And I agree that the noise doesn't seem right, but the way I had it set up last night was also the loudest I have heard it go. I took a short video, but my was cut off because my memory card was full. I have enough video to show how loud it was, but I didn't get to show the scope, or do much explaining before the video stopped.

I started it back up today, but something must have moved just a bit, because it wasn't working quite as well. it was close, but the waveform on the scope wasn't quite as clean as it was last night, and I was once again getting slight drag, slowing the rotor down

also, on the scope last night...
my sine wave was still a bit (for lack of a better word) wavy, but the patter of the wave along the wave was absolutely regular for the first time. each peak had the exact same patter on it. and the spikes you can see from the reed switch working were also much cleaner, and they looked like they were moving backwards on the wave form. kind of hard to describe, but hopefully soon I will have my camera cord and will be able to post a video showing what i mean

either way, I am super excited to have at least gotten it right once, and I have wound up another small coil, and will try the circuit from minoly's video tonight if I can find some time to build it.

N8

[Steve220]

Great work

It looks like coil placement is critical for sure. I think R UK said he worked a long time to get the coil placements just right. As you say, your noise level was higher too. Noise, for what ever reason, may be a positive indicator.

R UK said he had to turn it off after 3 1/2 hours because his neighbors complained about the noise it was making. It looks like he was running it outside in his back yard on a table, I would guess because of the high noise level and did not want it running in the house.

The noise part may be because the magnetic fields are doing something they don't normally do and are complaining about it. Could be that Lenz reduction has a noise attached to it. If so, louder may be better.

If you got it right once, I would hope you could find it again. I think R UK said that, just a little off and it would not work right, your findings seem to indicate this.
Anyway, great progress, I hope to see your video.

Steve

[Zooty]

I remember setting up my first Bedini SSG with the magnets all facing south outwards while the coil was configured correctly. It made a thump but still spun ok, just not as fast. The coil was pushing virtual north in between the souths so it was still spinning but there was still interactions with the souths which was pulling the rotor back a bit causing the wheel to judder, making noise. I wonder if this has anything to do with it?

[Steve220]

Schmitt Trigger

"I am trying to devise something that will detect the peek of a sine wave and trigger a fet at that point"

Zooty, you might want to try a Schmitt Trigger op amp.

The Schmitt trigger is a comparator application which switches the output negative when the input passes upward through a positive reference voltage.

They are very good at taking a rough analog input signal and giving a clean square wave output signal.
Some Schmitt Trigger op amp chips have adjustable times, amplitude and duration of the output signal.

Schmitt Triggers are used in all kinds of devices that require a clean output signal from a analog input, such as a pick up coil.
They are available at most electronic supply houses. I seen some for about 53 cents each.

[Zooty]

Cheers Steve

[Neight]

anyone know of a good place to look for AC caps? I have only found one in all the parts I have salvaged from old/non working electronics (mostly TVs and comps that people were willing to give me for free )
the one I have is .47µF 250V. reading some of the posts on the muller thread about coil shorting has me pretty interested in using an AC cap that will resonate with the coil shorting. I would like to find several different kinds to test with my rig, and see what I can get out of it.
I will buy some online if i have to, but getting parts for free from electronics that would have been thrown out anyway is always much nicer

[ZeropointEnergy]

Keep it up Bro

anyone know of a good place to look for AC caps? I have only found one in all the parts I have salvaged from old/non working electronics (mostly TVs and comps that people were willing to give me for free )
the one I have is .47µF 250V. reading some of the posts on the muller thread about coil shorting has me pretty interested in using an AC cap that will resonate with the coil shorting. I would like to find several different kinds to test with my rig, and see what I can get out of it.
I will buy some online if i have to, but getting parts for free from electronics that would have been thrown out anyway is always much nicer

Hey N8,

I'm not sure about where you would obtain for free, maybe a Neon sign store, or an AC motor shop is best bet.
I do have few in the shed I will have to check out the values and test them out.
I have a few reed switches on order and read the post about removing the Hall effect sensor switch from PC and will have to check it out.

Have you been calculating the reasonance out on paper first, or varying components?

Oh, on the coil issue I just made myself a winder that is all wooden except the crank. (made handle, then attached threaded bar.)
However, wasted cash on two counter that dont work on this rotary system
LOL, the 2nd counter I just obtained was called a rotary counter so I kept invoice and will grab replacement/refund
When I complete I will scan you my notes on it buddy. I have made it for large SSG sized coil and will have to made other attachments so can wind different size coils.
The only limit is coil size, 7.9mm shaft utilized so may have to weld new crank/shaft size to it for the Muller/RomUK design.

Great posts all, this project is on my to do list.

Regards
Zero

[Zooty]

I am about to make a Schmitt Trigger from a couple of NPN transistors and some resistors. This should allow a controlled short for any duration at any point in the sine wave. I hear read switches are a bit unreliable and difficult to position to get the right amount of ON time. Will post with results asap.

[Steve220]

Coil winder

I use a power screwdriver clamped in a vise.
Using a small reostat in series with the battery, the speed can be controlled some what. Sure saves your fingers.

Different bobbins can be used by building up the screwdriver blade with tape, since it is going slow anyway.
I put a mark on the bobbin and keep count of the rotations, well most of the time anyway.