What would happen to an Inventor who could solve the energy crises?

[dougyt]

My thoughts on the discussions about costs of renewable / fossil fuel powered generating plants is that to get as much power from the wind you need a lot of plants as opposed to the one plant for the fossil fuel generator. That maybe why the cost is initially higher.
As for why the oil cartels and energy providers would buy up "free" energy machine plans etc. it's the same reason it is cheaper to buy a razor than the blades (give away the razor and sell the blades forever more). Once you had the unit working at home then they aren't going to be making monthly residual income as they do now. Yes they pay to get the oil or coal up but they make a large profit on that because nobody else could start doing it cheaply. With power generation, once the knowledge was out a lot of people could copy it and the companies lose their stranglehold on power supply.

Just my opinion

[Roland]

Thanks for your reply, but i read most of that topic honestly i think you guys are going under the concept of free energy!

Free energy would not be available now...

almost 4.6 billion people are in the grid the energy business is a 5 trillion dollar business making free energy concepts are definitely going under the threat of death or of being SHUT UP...

but if a concept was introduced under the title of a solution to the crises but still make the economy grow and expand well i think they would support it rather then shut it down, they KNOW oil will end very soon and reality is going to punch in soon very very soon.

Look at Andrea Rossi's Energy Catalyzer. It may be one that fits the bill that you speak of.

As far as the economy goes don't you think that ANY device that lowers the cost of energy will impact the economy?

The reality is that yes the economy will be impacted. The reality is also, that just because the economy will be impacted does not mean it wont happen anyway. Even Rossi's E-CAT is already making changes in some governments, and some industries. They are reallocating there budgets for this new energy as we speak.
The Bloom Box (Bloom Energy) changed the way 5 of the biggest companies in the world budgeted their money.

I don't see any way around it "short term" economy's will change and or shift. Some people will lose, and others will win, but life will go on.

Keep an eye on the progress of the E Cat. This seems to be the device that opens the main stream door for the other "cheap energy" and or "free" devices to follow.

How the E-Cat technology was not suppressed is beyond me, I'm just glad it was not.

[Savvypro]

What about if I make my own wind generator without using any money and all my food and time does not need to be paid for either ?

Is it free then ?

Just as a thought exersize.
Consider that I can make anything i want to make within reason. And that I do not use money but have resources at hand that do not need to be paid for. My time is my own. I make a wind generator and set it to work.

Is the resulting electricity it produces free or not ?

How do you define free ?

My way is if there is no money or goods given by me to anybody else to make something then it is free. Simple.

Cheers

For your thought experiment - it's only costing you time and effort - and as time is the only limited thing you have it’s time you can't get back. The result is something that will convert one form of "energy" into something usable. But what happens when a part breaks or you need to change something -yet more time and effort that has to be spent.

Based on what you have written, your definition of free is defined by monetary exchange. Someone else could get the same output, by stealing everything they would need to build a wind generator.


The point I was and am trying to get across, is that the means of converting the energy isn’t free.

[Savvypro]

As for why the oil cartels and energy providers would buy up "free" energy machine plans etc. it's the same reason it is cheaper to buy a razor than the blades (give away the razor and sell the blades forever more). Once you had the unit working at home then they aren't going to be making monthly residual income as they do now. Yes they pay to get the oil or coal up but they make a large profit on that because nobody else could start doing it cheaply. With power generation, once the knowledge was out a lot of people could copy it and the companies lose their stranglehold on power supply.

It's all about power and control, and as I stated eairler:

In the words of David Rockefeller, Sr. - competition is a sin.

The moment people are self sufficient and no longer need to buy from someone - what they can make themselves. Those in power lose all their power and control.

[Farmhand]

Well of course you don't expect a wind generator or a set of solar panels to just appear do you ?

Do you charge yourself to flick the switch when you turn on a light too? Or to get out of bed ? Those things take effort too.

I will stick to my definition of free.

Stealing something could often cost more than buying it too. And possible take more effort. I do not condone stealing other people's stuff, not at all.

I have nothing against money or using it, I use it often.

But I refuse to "charge" myself or "cost" myself for doing something for myself. Is it a cost if you enjoy it, even though you do it for free? I think not ! It a pleasure.

My time has nothing watsoever to do with money or cost in any way unless i want it to of course, I have the right to do that.

I don't charge other people for my time either, I either give it or I don't.

Regardless of free or not we cannot expect to have other human beings do stuff for us without giving them what "they" want for it.

If we want what they have then we have to either give them what they want for it or go without. That is simple too. If we keep wanting and relying on what the energy cartels have, they can charge us whatever they please for it.

Right or wrong, there are only so many options if they hoard all the resources. Anyway who sold the resouces to them in the first place, us our Government. We sell our resources dirt cheap then complain when they sell them back to us for increadible price's.

We can't expect to go to the corner store and demand they sell us stuff at a certain price, we must pay what they ask or go without.

Cheers

[clueless]

Just my opinion but

I think so called free energy or OU already exists and I can give you at least three examples. I watched a video from a professor at MIT from '06 I think about a process for extracting and storing hydrogen in what he then called personal power plants for a $100. Fast forward 5 years and what do you find? A start up company with federal grants and the CEO; is a joint venture capitalist. Have you heard anything more about these $100 power plants? What will happen is that the units will only be produced in sizes a power company can afford. Does anybody believe that power companies will lower their prices to reflect this cheaper energy? I don't.
Another example is another professor either in Mass. or Conn. that has a process for extraction production grade gasoline from wood and other feedstocks. You know what he said,' This (the fuel) is so good you will not even know you're using it.' That statement is the key, "you won't know you're using it." Will the price at the pump reflect a lower cost? Will either of these processes be made widely available.
For a historical perspective go to the link savvypro provided, Alcohol as a Gas, and you see up until 1918 or so cars were designed to run on either alcohol or gas. Rockefeller derailed the competition by financing the Women's Temperance League ( I think was their name) and Prohibition was born.
My opinion is the car, oil, and power companies all welcome so called free energy as long as they are the only ones that have it.
-Clueless

[khabe]

Lets say your local powerhouse will come something like gigant Muller dynamo, real selfrunning one is it free energy? Of course not, unreal hope this local energy company will not send you monthly bills and these bill will come higher than today You will build your own? Surely they will figure out some law you cannot use it, or OK you can if your one is not a copy, but you must pay energy taxes And every user will pay wind or solar taxes
Or for example you built your own energy machine, you do not need to pay, but your envious neighbours bring action against because your energy machinne interferes mobil phones, radio and tv, frustrates local people, none can sleep at nights and finally comission find out your machine causes cancer then surely Man in Blac will visit and confiscates machine + advanced amercement like $1.000.000
This is gibberish, of course, but all is possible in human community.
cheers,
khabe

[Farmhand]

Well I must admitt there are numerous ways personal rights can be infringed by the "authorities", and they do it with almost everything (not just energy ), but when it becomes apparent to the majority of the populace that the majority of our "authorities" have engaged in and still are engaging in very illegal, very immoral and very damaging activities, which have caused us all many hardships. They will do something about it.

It is already happening. They cannot continue to fool us all forever and they cannot possibly hope to ever defeat the power of the people when badly wronged. They would be well advised to start to change things for the betterment of all, and do it fast.

Because revolutions can happen overnight.

We cannot stop the dust from gathering during the year but we can have a spring clean and remove it. If we want. Dirt is easily removed.

Cheers

[jtanguay]

In order to turn those 3 sources you described (ultimately just one - the sun) - you have to do something. Solar, wind, wave/hydro (or anything else) don't just miraculously turn into electricity, that you can use without a conversion process. That conversion process is where the "free" bit ends, and is what causes the free energy to not be free - but actually have a cost. That is what I mean buy there being no “free energy”, and not that there is not vast amounts of available energy everywhere all the time.

Need I remind you that you live and breathe without price? You were given life without cost. How much does it cost you for your heartbeat?

Now as for free electricity in the form that can be used in modern electronics and appliances, you are more or less on the money.

[aljhoa]

Wow that is one of the most dangerous things I have ever seen.

I must be missing something. What does it do ? Except for present the very real possibity of being dismembered or killed by it .

Wow wow and WOW !

I am curious, I miss a lot of stuff. So if I missed what it does it wouldn't be the first time.

It's addictive to watch .

Choosing a High Power Alternator
A Few Basic Facts about Conventional Alternators

This type of alternator is usual identified by the maximum amount of power that it can produce when the engine is operating at high speed -- however, it cannon produce this amount of power for more than a few minutes without overheating and potential damage. The most power that such an alternator can be expected to provide continuously is about 1/2 the maximum rated output power -- possibly as much as 2/3 for a conventional "heavy duty" design.

Is your engine large enough?
For example, if you are driving your alternator with a diesel engine, and assuming adequate flywheel mass and a 3:1 engine drive pulley to alternator pulley ratio, a high efficiency, high current, 12V alternator will require about 1 hp per 30 amps of output power + about 1-2 hp for engine operating/muffling loads -- when operating at its maximum rated output current.
Therefore, for a 150 Amp alternator, operating at full output, the expected diesel engine load would be about 7-8 hp.
If using a gasoline engine instead of a diesel, with a slightly lower 2 to 2.5:1 drive ratio, figure on a requirement of about 1 hp per 15 amps of output power + about 1-3 hp for engine operating/muffling loads -- i.e., 11-14 hp for a 150A alternator.
Learn about choosing and retrofitting high output alternators

Al

[jtanguay]

Well I must admitt there are numerous ways personal rights can be infringed by the "authorities", and they do it with almost everything (not just energy ), but when it becomes apparent to the majority of the populace that the majority of our "authorities" have engaged in and still are engaging in very illegal, very immoral and very damaging activities, which have caused us all many hardships. They will do something about it.

It is already happening. They cannot continue to fool us all forever and they cannot possibly hope to ever defeat the power of the people when badly wronged. They would be well advised to start to change things for the betterment of all, and do it fast.

Because revolutions can happen overnight.

We cannot stop the dust from gathering during the year but we can have a spring clean and remove it. If we want. Dirt is easily removed.

Cheers

Yes, the 'authorities' do infringe our 'rights'. Behind the scenes there is a lot going on that we don't know about. The only way that we can be enslaved is by permission. We give that permission either knowingly or through ignorance. But very rarely does anyone knowingly submit themselves as it is truly impossible for us to know the full implications and cost of 'selling ourselves out'.

One such event was the stock market crash of the 1920's. Even though the people of that period sold themselves out, it was easy because they were suffering hardships. Most of them were too uneducated and feeble minded to understand the full consequences of their actions. After all, as long as they registered and signed on the dotted line, they were given food stamps and able to eat, as well as given money! What could possibly go wrong there? Fast forward to today, and you can easily see just how easy it is to 'boil a frog'. It must be done slowly so the frog won't jump out. The 'master plan' is nearly complete and today's generation has for the most part willingly sold themselves for cheap pleasures and thrills. If only they knew the cost of it all, and the wicked creditor waiting to take what is owed, there would be no question that the light would shine worldwide, and the awakening would destroy all evil on this earth. But as long as the circuses and bread keep on coming, the chattel won't really do much until they're on the chopping block, when it's too late.

[Savvypro]

Well of course you don't expect a wind generator or a set of solar panels to just appear do you ?

Do you charge yourself to flick the switch when you turn on a light too? Or to get out of bed ? Those things take effort too.

I will stick to my definition of free.

You defined the limitations of the thought experiment - my answer was based on those limitations. So please reread your thought experiment post and then my reply.

On the time issue, when you get a job - how do they pay you. As most people, get paid by the hour. Which means that their time is worth what others are willing to pay them for it.

Even if you were paid on commission, you would still be exchanging time for money - the only difference is that you don’t have a fixed rate.

And even if you were to work for yourself or own your own business, it will still come down to hours exchanged for money earned. You may have other means of defining the benefit you gain, for the time you exchange. But the tax man is still going to demand legal tender, and so will most other people in exchange for: time, services or goods.

As I stated, time is the only limited resource everyone has, everything else you can get more of - time, you can’t. You do not know how long you will live. So every second you spend doing something, is a second you can not get back. Plus you can not be in two places at the same time doing something you love vs. say working. I know that some people love the work they do but the vast majority of the people don't.

Stealing something could often cost more than buying it too. And possible take more effort. I do not condone stealing other people's stuff, not at all.

My point was that the end result would still be the same - a wind to electricity converter (wind generator - which is the wrong name for it, as it don't generate wind. It converts it to electricity or some other usable output, think: wind mill).

I have nothing against money or using it, I use it often.

I never said you did, just that your definition of free was defined by monetary exchange. Based on what you wrote.

But I refuse to "charge" myself or "cost" myself for doing something for myself. Is it a cost if you enjoy it, even though you do it for free? I think not ! It a pleasure.

DIY vs hiring someone to do it for you - sometimes it's cheaper and easier to outsource it - other times it's cheaper and easier to do it yourself.

Also see my previous limited time statements.

My time has nothing watsoever to do with money or cost in any way unless i want it to of course, I have the right to do that.

Never said you didn't, I just pointed out that based on the limitations of the thought experiment - which you defined. Time and effort were the things you were spending.

I don't charge other people for my time either, I either give it or I don't.

See my statements at the beginning of this post - i.e. job, time for money etc.

Regardless of free or not we cannot expect to have other human beings do stuff for us without giving them what "they" want for it.

Most people want money, and will do anything for money. I woun't even go into beliefs or fiat currency.

If we want what they have then we have to either give them what they want for it or go without. That is simple too. If we keep wanting and relying on what the energy cartels have, they can charge us whatever they please for it.

Right or wrong, there are only so many options if they hoard all the resources.

Agreed

Anyway who sold the resouces to them in the first place, us our Government. We sell our resources dirt cheap then complain when they sell them back to us for increadible price's.

It's a small minority who seek to benefit at the expense of the many. And pass off their benefit as a benefit for all.

We can't expect to go to the corner store and demand they sell us stuff at a certain price, we must pay what they ask or go without.

Cheers

Agreed, but that doesn't stop people from haggling or steeling.

[Savvypro]

I think so called free energy or OU already exists and I can give you at least three examples. I watched a video from a professor at MIT from '06 I think about a process for extracting and storing hydrogen in what he then called personal power plants for a $100. Fast forward 5 years and what do you find? A start up company with federal grants and the CEO; is a joint venture capitalist. Have you heard anything more about these $100 power plants? What will happen is that the units will only be produced in sizes a power company can afford. Does anybody believe that power companies will lower their prices to reflect this cheaper energy? I don't.
Another example is another professor either in Mass. or Conn. that has a process for extraction production grade gasoline from wood and other feedstocks. You know what he said,' This (the fuel) is so good you will not even know you're using it.' That statement is the key, "you won't know you're using it." Will the price at the pump reflect a lower cost? Will either of these processes be made widely available.
For a historical perspective go to the link savvypro provided, Alcohol as a Gas, and you see up until 1918 or so cars were designed to run on either alcohol or gas. Rockefeller derailed the competition by financing the Women's Temperance League ( I think was their name) and Prohibition was born.
My opinion is the car, oil, and power companies all welcome so called free energy as long as they are the only ones that have it.
-Clueless

How is a $100 power plant free. This is what I'm trying to get at. Not that the devices do not exist. It is that they are not free, they have an initial cost and most likely an on going cost (to maintain it and replace broken or warn out parts). The resulting energy isn't free but cheap. The initial cost can take many forms, it's not just limited to monetary exchange

[Savvypro]

@jtanguay

This thread and my responses are about energy. But I'll reply to your post:

Need I remind you that you live and breathe without price? You were given life without cost. How much does it cost you for your heartbeat?

That may be so, but the last time I checked: food, water, shelter, heating/cooling - have a cost to it. Unless the life plan is to be a freeloader, in a stable non varying climate with easy access to abundant free food and water.

Now as for free electricity in the form that can be used in modern electronics and appliances, you are more or less on the money.

Thank you, finally someone gets it.

[Farmhand]

Hi Savvypro,

Just to keep things light, as I don't beleive there is really any benifit to arguing such fine details but. Does a "Wind Mill" mill wind ? In my opinion it makes perfect sense to call a Wind Generator a Wind Generator. It's powered by the wind and it generates. A deisel generator does not generate deisel either, but a deisel generator it is.

My point was that the end result would still be the same - a wind to electricity converter (wind generator - which is the wrong name for it, as it don't generate win. It converts it to electricity or some other usable output, think: wind mill).

As far as the free thing go's, and the thought experiment. How would I describe something that was being given at no cost ? Free ?

What is Free then ? Can you list all the definitions because they are all valid.

Even though it is wikipedia it looks correct to me.
Free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But of course we are all free to use or not use whichever definition of free we so choose.

You do make good points. Free energy can come from a paid for machine or device. It just depends how you want to think about it.

Regardless I am way off topic and I appoligise for that.

Cheers