What would happen to an Inventor who could solve the energy crises?

[Savvypro]

Hi Savvypro,

Just to keep things light, as I don't beleive there is really any benifit to arguing such fine details but. Does a "Wind Mill" mill wind ? In my opinion it makes perfect sense to call a Wind Generator a Wind Generator. It's powered by the wind and it generates. A deisel generator does not generate deisel either, but a deisel generator it is.



As far as the free thing go's, and the thought experiment. How would I describe something that was being given at no cost ? Free ?

What is Free then ? Can you list all the definitions because they are all valid.

Even though it is wikipedia it looks correct to me.
Free - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But of course we are all free to use or not use whichever definition of free we so choose.

You do make good points. Free energy can come from a paid for machine or device. It just depends how you want to think about it.

Regardless I am way off topic and I appoligise for that.

Cheers

As I stated earlier: it's the act of conversion, that act of taping it - is not free. I didn’t say the energy source was not free. Oil is free energy - to use it, costs something.

Which leads into the power and control issue. If someone or something comes along that undermines the status quo - everything is done to prevent it from doing so. Thus the world we live in - in which we pay oil companies for the privilege of disposing their toxic waste. To the water companies for the privilege of disposing (more like storing) the toxic waste of the Aluminium industry.

[Farmhand]

As I stated earlier: it's the act of conversion, that act of taping it - is not free. I didn’t say the energy source was not free. Oil is free energy - to use it, costs something.

Which leads into the power and control issue. If someone or something comes along that undermines the status quo - everything is done to prevent it from doing so. Thus the world we live in - in which we pay oil companies for the privilege of disposing their toxic waste. To the water companies for the privilege of disposing (more like storing) the toxic waste of the Aluminium industry.

I must admitt, you are right, if a person does have a solution they are quiet about it. I just watched a 60 minutes episode about Fukishima and now I feel sick to the stomach, angry, sad, and frustrated.

Any inventor who does have a soultion should find some way to get it out. It is badly needed. Half the problem is that when somebody wants to show something they almost need to build a power plant before anyone will take them seriously. And so, many may have real cheap energy machines but know better than to show. I wish I had one because I would show it.

When I show some people some really remarkable things they just say what good is that if we can't buy it or run a whole house from it or a whole country. Then i say, it can't be bought because it is too efficient and the scientific community will not accept it. They say, then it is of no use if we can't buy it . I say, then build it yourself. They say, I'm too busy to do that. Then I say, then don't complain about the price they charge. They then say, I have more important things to do, and they go to watch TV.

So if nobody wants change for the better then it is unlikely anything will improve. Inventors could be killed and hardly anyone would raise an eyebrow.

The only best way to solve the energy crisis is to use less energy. We must be prepared to go without anyway as the constant supply we almost enjoy now is not garanteed.

A very perplexing problem for sure.

Cheers

[MonsieurM]

Want to lower the cost, find a way to force all utilities of the world to compete for the world population: (ie tesla transmission)

thus you lower cost of production and transmission, as well as the barrier to entry: you could become a power producer...

[Inquorate]

If they're secretive they'll be silenced. If they've released their tech bit by bit to their peers all over the world as they've discovered it, they'll be safe and the rest of the world will have to adapt. It's simple. Transparency = no fear. No fear = no control.
That of course assumes the peers can spot a misdirection and aren't too preoccupied and or stupid to verify the tech.

[Farmhand]

If they're secretive they'll be silenced. If they've released their tech bit by bit to their peers all over the world as they've discovered it, they'll be safe and the rest of the world will have to adapt. It's simple. Transparency = no fear. No fear = no control.
That of course assumes the peers can spot a misdirection and aren't too preoccupied and or stupid to verify the tech.

Good call. I agree.
We can reverse the temperature on the pot slow boiling the frog. If it survive's or not is another matter.

I like the theory of, go ahead and do it even if it is difficult because the more people doing it the more the average person will accept and/or want new technologies, even with the teething problems.

I had the idea a while ago to try to start a group, Local Area Networking for Renewable Energy Development, or LANRED for short. It would be difficult to suppress a local group of 20 or so people and their families. The group could be a registered organisation or not. And could still share stuff on the net, patents would be defunct if the rest of the group knew about it.

Also a little bit of help go's a long way sometime's. There must be a few likeminded people close to each other, maybe unable to realise their concepts because of a lack of help. Some spectacular demonstration devices would be good to have to peake some interest.

If something is good a patent should not be necessary to use it on masse.

[Steve220]

A different view

I have often thought that the best way to solve the energy crisis is to stop all conservation of energy and burn it all up as fast as you can. When it is all gone, then the world will be forced to come up with a different form of energy or go back to the stone age.

This may sound drastic, but I think it would work. Just keep going on the way it is now, you are still going to run out any way, but you are going to pay and pay in the mean time, through money and pollution.

It may not be the best idea, but I am sure you would get everyones full attention.

[Steve220]

Another different view

"Any inventor who does have a soultion should find some way to get it out. It is badly needed. Half the problem is that when somebody wants to show something they almost need to build a power plant before anyone will take them seriously. And so, many may have real cheap energy machines but know better than to show. I wish I had one because I would show it."

Farmhand, I take what you are saying to is, you would show it if it did more good than harm.

As I have said in other posts, free energy may not always be free.
For example, if a new way was found to obtain free energy, however at the same time be able to kill off millions of people at a time through a unforseen side effect, would this be good?
It would be free energy, but at a high cost.

May be the reason that some free energy devices are kept silent is because of a danger to the people of planet, not just because of the greed of the 1% of the population that is claimed to control the world.

I really do think that not all free energy devices are danger free too.
Some free energy device may have other uses besides free energy.
Those uses may have a great danger attached to them.

I do think this should be considered when discussing the restricting of information regarding free energy devices.
There are other things than greed to consider.

[Neight]

May be the reason that some free energy devices are kept silent is because of a danger to the people of planet, not just because of the greed of the 1% of the population that is claimed to control the world.

I agree that the use of free energy cannot come at the cost of more lives or destruction of the planet, but I do not believe any of these type of devices have been suppressed for our safety. if that were the case, they would also be suppressing the types of energy that we are already paying for...
petroleum products, plastics, fossil fuels in general, nuclear, all these things pose a significant threat to public health and safety if you really think about.

I don't think you are going to find too many extreme dangers behind magnetic motor/generators, or even solid state devices that can obtain energy from the atmosphere and make use of it. the only real dangers I can see from these types of devices are the possibility of electrocution, which is a real threat from the current tech anyway...
unless someone finds some disease caused by magnetic fields, I think the threat level of these devices has been realized already.
I agree with farmhand, if it's out there, lets find it and spread the word, quickly!

I do see your idea for burning up the resources we are currently using being a novel approach, but there again, the more people learn, the more of these resources become available to us.
look at "fracking", they are now able to get crude and natural gas from oil fields that have long been considered drained. there is a lot of environmental concerns for this kind of tech, but it's happening anyway.
if we don't find a way to get knowledge out to the general public that there might just be a better way, nothing will change until, as you say, the resources are drained. with this fracking process that is being used now, there is estimated to be at least several hundred years worth of oil now available. can we really survive another century or two of the status quo before we are forced to make some changes?
just my two (or so ) cents
N8

[Steve220]

Good point

I agree, if oil was discovered today, it would be banned from burning anyway, by the EPA. This is my whole point. We have already done enough damage to the enviroment and people living on Earth. Sure don't need any more.

I do hope any free energy device will be, for the most part, problem free also. I am not against free energy devices, only free energy devices that could cause huge unforseen problems in the future.
I know anything new will have some problems, no matter what it is.
I am talking, no huge problems.

When oil was first discovered, it was like there was going to be a more wonderful world in the future for everyone because of it. But what a mess we have now.
I just hope it does not happen all over again with free energy.

I do think that some, but not all, free energy devices could have a severe down side to them that would not show up for a while and are being currently silenced to protect the population. I know you don't agree, but we just disagree here on this part.

There is enough oil gas and Coal to last a while longer. I think the pollution will get us all, long before running out of fuel. Of course that is part of the problem. The pollution is creeping up slowly world wide so you don't notice much unless you live in a city with high air pollution. I have no idea how to rid the world of the existing gasses in the air, even if the burning of fuels stopped today. It would be a huge task for sure.

[Neight]

I agree, if oil was discovered today, it would be banned from burning anyway, by the EPA. This is my whole point. We have already done enough damage to the enviroment and people living on Earth. Sure don't need any more.

I do hope any free energy device will be, for the most part, problem free also. I am not against free energy devices, only free energy devices that could cause huge unforseen problems in the future.
I know anything new will have some problems, no matter what it is.
I am talking, no huge problems.

When oil was first discovered, it was like there was going to be a more wonderful world in the future for everyone because of it. But what a mess we have now.
I just hope it does not happen all over again with free energy.

I do think that some, but not all, free energy devices could have a severe down side to them that would not show up for a while and are being currently silenced to protect the population. I know you don't agree, but we just disagree here on this part.

There is enough oil gas and Coal to last a while longer. I think the pollution will get us all, long before running out of fuel. Of course that is part of the problem. The pollution is creeping up slowly world wide so you don't notice much unless you live in a city with high air pollution. I have no idea how to rid the world of the existing gasses in the air, even if the burning of fuels stopped today. It would be a huge task for sure.

lol, you and I have had a few good debates on this topic already
I think we are both mostly saying the same thing, and just disagree on a few of the finer points...
either way, you are right, we really don't want to do anything that will ultimately cause more harm in the future.
the only way we will see change is through open source projects, and trying to teach people what is possible. it's obviously not going to happen through the channels that have the power already.
good points, always enjoy these conversations

N8

[Farmhand]

"Any inventor who does have a soultion should find some way to get it out. It is badly needed. Half the problem is that when somebody wants to show something they almost need to build a power plant before anyone will take them seriously. And so, many may have real cheap energy machines but know better than to show. I wish I had one because I would show it."

Farmhand, I take what you are saying to is, you would show it if it did more good than harm.

As I have said in other posts, free energy may not always be free.
For example, if a new way was found to obtain free energy, however at the same time be able to kill off millions of people at a time through a unforseen side effect, would this be good?
It would be free energy, but at a high cost.

May be the reason that some free energy devices are kept silent is because of a danger to the people of planet, not just because of the greed of the 1% of the population that is claimed to control the world.

I really do think that not all free energy devices are danger free too.
Some free energy device may have other uses besides free energy.
Those uses may have a great danger attached to them.

I do think this should be considered when discussing the restricting of information regarding free energy devices.
There are other things than greed to consider.

Yes you are totally correct, I think the only thing that actually kept Tesla safe in his old age was that the authorities were actually scared of him and what he could do with some of his directed energy devices. I would not have liked to try to threaten Nikola Tesla back then. He might just vaporise anyone who tried to harm him. Seriously.

All this stuff is already used by different militaries, and the only thing that stops them using the tech more is that it would become too obvious to the general populace who now live in denial. If the tech itself became widely known there would be no need to hide it any longer, and very bad things could happen.

But what is better, get it out in the open or let them secretly use these thing on whoever they want, while these things are secret they can use them and most people don't beleive it because they think it is all SCi Fi. and fiction.

If everybody has the tech it is a stalemate, or complete chaos. Order come from chaos. But chaos is no fun, that is for sure.

You do make good points we should consider, and I don't profess to know a whole lot. People can change their veiws and should when new information comes to light, I do.

Cheers

[clueless]

Savvypro I was only painting with broad strokes

to make a point. That point being if any type of energy device is discovered that produces more energy than it consumes, or one that is efficent,simple and cheap we will probably never know it. But that doesn't mean it will not be in use. It just means we will not get any relief from it. I'll go out on a limb and say that anything made will wear out in time, even one with no moving parts.
That very good video,"Alcohol as a Gas" you pointed me to shows plainly how alcohol was first choice for the ICE and how easily it was suppresed. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see alcohol make a comeback once the energy companies have those energy fields under control.

How is a $100 power plant free. This is what I'm trying to get at. Not that the devices do not exist. It is that they are not free, they have an initial cost and most likely an on going cost (to maintain it and replace broken or warn out parts). The resulting energy isn't free but cheap. The initial cost can take many forms, it's not just limited to monetary exchange

[Savvypro]

to make a point. That point being if any type of energy device is discovered that produces more energy than it consumes, or one that is efficent,simple and cheap we will probably never know it. But that doesn't mean it will not be in use. It just means we will not get any relief from it. I'll go out on a limb and say that anything made will wear out in time, even one with no moving parts.
That very good video,"Alcohol as a Gas" you pointed me to shows plainly how alcohol was first choice for the ICE and how easily it was suppresed. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see alcohol make a comeback once the energy companies have those energy fields under control.

My post wasn't to take issue with your comments, it was to show that a $100 device isn't free. That device may tap into a source that is free, but just to be able to do so - required $100 to be spent. Thus no such thing as free energy - but cheap energy.

Take alcohol - it is the usable form of free solar energy. But to get it to that state (alcohol) took time, money and effort.

[jtanguay]

@jtanguay

This thread and my responses are about energy. But I'll reply to your post:



That may be so, but the last time I checked: food, water, shelter, heating/cooling - have a cost to it. Unless the life plan is to be a freeloader, in a stable non varying climate with easy access to abundant free food and water.



Thank you, finally someone gets it.

The cost isn't always monetary. If you go by the true currency of free men, then karma is what you're after. Complete equilibrium with nature means you are truly free and the chains that bind you are no more. Sadly it is only a concept welcomed by very few.

Before the 'white man' came to north america, the natives had abundant fresh water and food. We just need to get back to basics and quit polluting the earth. Many modern conveniences would need to be done away with. The less work we do, the more we atrophy. We also rely more on the 'system' which has disconnected us from the ways of our forefathers who knew how to till the soil and live off the land. Back to basics is the only way out of the rabbit hole.

[aljhoa]

We just need to get back to basics and quit polluting the earth. Many modern conveniences would need to be done away with. The less work we do, the more we atrophy. We also rely more on the 'system' which has disconnected us from the ways of our forefathers who knew how to till the soil and live off the land. Back to basics is the only way out of the rabbit hole.

In power, the Khmer Rouge carried out a radical program.......... The purpose of this policy was to turn Cambodians into "Old People" through agricultural labor. These actions resulted in massive deaths through executions, work exhaustion, illness, and starvation.
Khmer Rouge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Al