Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect

[Farmhand]

Ok I don't see how it is all that much different to the effect when produced by this setup of mine. My setup is just a solid state resonant generator which puts out a sine wave at about 480 Khz the amplitude can be varied. In the video it uses just about 900 Ma at 12.5 volts, so about 11.25 watts while powering a load of 6 x 5 mm LED's, not sure of the current through those not much. Then when I load the system with the cap discharger to charge a battery more energy is used there but the input current halve's, it reduces to only about 450 mA at 12.5 volts or about 5.625 watts , thereby saving me 5,625 watts from an already loaded condition. Which in my opinion is better than a saving from an idle condition eg. (no load).

So all up I saved about half of the original input by using a couple of watts.

Started with 11.25 watts slightly loaded
Went to 5.625 watts when loaded by more load, maybe a couple of more watts not much.

Obviously this is fairly efficient as compared to over 70 watts input power to supply a load with 2 watts. And much safer too I might add.

Reduced input current with added load.wmv - YouTube

I'm not saying there is anything special about this effect, I think it happens because the load is sufficient to drag down the sine wave which in turn reduces any reverse effects, of course. And this reduces losses and thereby input power. Thats just how it works.

Incase no one noticed, the amount saved was almost exactly the same as the amount it used under the extra load.

And the effect is exactly the same when a small incandescent bulb is used in place of the battery.

Cheers

[hherby]

Ok I don't see how it is all that much different to the effect when produced by this setup of mine. My setup just a solid state resonant generator which puts out a sine wave at about 480 Khz the amplitude can be varied. In the video it uses just about 900 Ma at 12.5 volts, so about 11.25 watts while powering a load of 6 x 5 mm LED's, not sure of the current through those not much. Then when I load the system with the cap discharger to charge a battery more energy is used there but the input current halve's, it reduces to only about 450 mA at 12.5 volts or about 5.625 watts , thereby saving me 5,625 watts from an already loaded condition. Which in my opinion is better than a saving from an idle condition eg. (no load).

So all up I saved about half of the original input by using a couple of watts.

Started with 11.25 watts slightly loaded
Went to 5.625 watts when loaded by more load, maybe a couple of more watts not much.

Obviously this is fairly efficient as compared to over 70 watts input power to supply a load with 2 watts. And much safer too I might add.

Reduced input current with added load.wmv - YouTube

I'm not saying there is anything special about this effect, I think it happens because the load is sufficient to drag down the sine wave which in turn reduces any reverse effects, of course. And this reduces losses and thereby input power. Thats just how it works.

Incase no one noticed, the amount saved was almost exactly the same as the amount it used under the extra load.

And the effect is exactly the same when a small incandescent bulb is used in place of the battery.

Cheers

Hello Farmhand,
So far the experiments conducted show that generation can be accomplished at high frequencies with a high impedance coil without drawing an extra load on the prime mover and actually decreased the driving load. Take into account the prime mover used in these experiments so far are not very efficient.

Now consider what would happen when the prime mover is a very high efficiency motor with energy recovery. A primary bank of batteries drives a high efficiency pulse motor (driving a mechanical load) and recovers lets say 90% of the energy into a second charging bank of batteries. Obviously if you keep swapping the batteries from front to back, eventually the batteries will become depleted to the point they will not run the load. Now if you can augment the system to make up the 10% loss and end up with a 1:1 charge ratio between the primary bank and the charging bank, then you can continually run the motor and load for free by simply swapping the banks from front back when needed.

This is where the delayed lenz effect can benefit this situation. In the scenario above, you can add enough delayed lenz generator coils to generate enough power to make up for the 10% loss WITHOUT exerting an extra load on the motor.

Also keep in mind the tests done so far had a motor driving a single coil. A single coil does not generate enough output to be of practical use. But you can add more coils WITHOUT loading down the motor. If you keep adding coils in this fashion, you will reach a point where you can generate enough power to drive the motor and its load. Hence the system would be self powering. So even with an inefficient motor, if you add enough generator coils all you have to do is get the motor up to speed so the generator can supply all the power the motor needs to run and then it will run itself. There is no free lunch here. It will cost you to build the generator and maintain it. The cost savings of not having to pay for the energy to drive the system will eventually offset the cost it took to build the generator. That is the payback period. After that point it truly runs for free.

Hope this helps.

Alex

[Allen Burgess]

Magnet core output.

This may be mildly off topic, but I feel it's still germaine.

I produced a video that helps explain the whopping 20 volts of a.c. power Mr.Whip generates with his 200 mh diametric magnet core coil.

zebok3's Channel - YouTube

The video's in poor winter lighting. It's a replication of Leon Dragone's Magnet Pump. Basicly what I demonstrate here is that a pulse coil sandwiched between two disk magnets generates a current when the field is cut and then allowed to repenetrate the coil windings through seperate contacts of a DPDT switch to insure the accumulated charge is not BEMF.

The point is, the output coil magnet core can generate a current in the coil windings merely by passing the flux alone over the wraps while stationary. The rotor magnets cause the flux torque as they pass, hence the cause for the increased output along with the neutral Lenz effect.

[Overunityguide]

Hello Farmhand,
So far the experiments conducted show that generation can be accomplished at high frequencies with a high impedance coil without drawing an extra load on the prime mover and actually decreased the driving load. Take into account the prime mover used in these experiments so far are not very efficient.

Now consider what would happen when the prime mover is a very high efficiency motor with energy recovery. A primary bank of batteries drives a high efficiency pulse motor (driving a mechanical load) and recovers lets say 90% of the energy into a second charging bank of batteries. Obviously if you keep swapping the batteries from front to back, eventually the batteries will become depleted to the point they will not run the load. Now if you can augment the system to make up the 10% loss and end up with a 1:1 charge ratio between the primary bank and the charging bank, then you can continually run the motor and load for free by simply swapping the banks from front back when needed.

This is where the delayed lenz effect can benefit this situation. In the scenario above, you can add enough delayed lenz generator coils to generate enough power to make up for the 10% loss WITHOUT exerting an extra load on the motor.

Also keep in mind the tests done so far had a motor driving a single coil. A single coil does not generate enough output to be of practical use. But you can add more coils WITHOUT loading down the motor. If you keep adding coils in this fashion, you will reach a point where you can generate enough power to drive the motor and its load. Hence the system would be self powering. So even with an inefficient motor, if you add enough generator coils all you have to do is get the motor up to speed so the generator can supply all the power the motor needs to run and then it will run itself. There is no free lunch here. It will cost you to build the generator and maintain it. The cost savings of not having to pay for the energy to drive the system will eventually offset the cost it took to build the generator. That is the payback period. After that point it truly runs for free.

Hope this helps.

Alex

@Alex, this is exactly what I would have said to Farmhand, Thanks for posting, it saves me a lot of time.

So one more thing to Farmhand, Please keep in mind that my setup is only showing 'proof of principle' There can be a lot done to improve this setup But that is not what I was trying to achieve...

The only two real important parameters right here are high frequency and high impedance.

With Kind Regards Overunityguide

Difference Between Shorting and Loading, Delayed Lenz / Negative Lenz Effect - YouTube

[Shadesz]

Don't forget that once you put all the generator coils on, if you have a differing number of coils to magnets, you will be avoiding even more drag that the test system has to overcome.

[Farmhand]

Hi guys, I don't believe that adding more coils will have the effect you say. Chiefly because adding more coils will increase the power used for the system to idle at any speed and the amount "extra' used to run the machine to the same fast speed at idle will be the amount able to be saved. So you see OU will still be the same distance away. In my opinion. Or further.

If the setup uses say 78 watts to run fast with one coil and 2 watts can be saved. My bet is that if it were run at the same fast speed with two coils more than two watts extra would be used to do it and if two watts were saved then there is a loss not a gain. So I would say one extra coil would cause it to use more extra power than the extra power it would save. Just my guess.

It would be easy for you to test with you're nice neat setup. you just need another coil.

When will there be a usefull implemenation of this system ?

I think the bi-toroid setup is similar, in that he is not taking into acount how much power it takes to run the load in a normal way as compared to his way.

The input power to keep the system running at idle in his configuration as compared to normal. He just shows that the load make an inefficient process a bit more efficient.

Cheer

[Farmhand]

Don't forget that once you put all the generator coils on, if you have a differing number of coils to magnets, you will be avoiding even more drag that the test system has to overcome.

Avoiding more extra drag that you just created by adding more coils.

This needs to be tested, theory is just not good enough. And will only get us so far. It's obvious adding one coil adds drag. Why would a second coil not also add drag initially ? So you would only ever be able to avoid the drag you make. In my opinion.

It should be tested.

Cheers

P.S. I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong. I actually hope I am wrong.

[Farmhand]

I like to think of myself as a realist not a skeptic. So the way I see it I could be doing some people a big favor. If i'm right it could save a some people a lot of money, and considering the danger involved with high speed rotors with magnets stuck to them, I could be saving somebody's life.

Overunityguide, has a very good setup, and seems willing to test things. We should take advantage of that. If I were interested enough to find out the truth I would even go so far as to send some money to him to help meet the extra costs of more coils to test it. But I have other things to do. And I'm fairly sure of my thoughts on this.

Like I said I hope I'm wrong.

Will the regenerative acceleration also work if the prime mover is a windmill or a water wheel or a horse ? Or will it only work when using an electric motor as the prime mover ?

I'm not keen on seeing my horse get sped up by the generator into overunity.

Cheers

[Shadesz]

Avoiding more extra drag that you just created by adding more coils.

This needs to be tested, theory is just not good enough. And will only get us so far. It's obvious adding one coil adds drag. Why would a second coil not also add drag initially ? So you would only ever be able to avoid the drag you make. In my opinion.

It should be tested.

Cheers

P.S. I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong. I actually hope I am wrong.

Carmen Miller- NEMCA talk on Muller Magnetic Motor - YouTube

Skip ahead to 41 mins and watch through 48 mins.

[Farmhand]

Carmen Miller- NEMCA talk on Muller Magnetic Motor - YouTube

Skip ahead to 41 mins and watch through 48 mins.

Yes but that's a Muller, it uses the asymetrical relationship between the rotor and stator forces to reduce drag from cogging. And he's actually got a computer controlled one. Very cool.

In my simple way of looking at things cogging is different to Lenz, because cogging will happen without any power being developed like when turning by hand. But Lens I think is caused by electricity. So eliminating cogging should not automatically eliminate Lenz. I don't think.

When the generator is spinning its magnets past the coils with no load at normal speed there is some drag, then when if all go's well when power is drawn, before the sine wave is dragged down (which causes lens to show and slow the motor) limiting the output the generator, the motor (prime mover) will increase power to overcome it so there is more power availiable for more load.

Otherwise you just ran out of output.

The higher impedance of the coil and the higher frequency I think will seriously limit the ability of the coil to output power. But I might be wrong.

I still don't get it. A Muller is different.

[Shadesz]

Yes but that's a Muller, it uses the asymetrical relationship between the rotor and stator forces to reduce drag from cogging. And he's actually got a computer controlled one. Very cool.

In my simple way of looking at things cogging is different to Lenz, because cogging will happen without any power being developed like when turning by hand. But Lens I think is caused by electricity. So eliminating cogging should not automatically eliminate Lenz. I don't think.

When the generator is spinning its magnets past the coils with no load at normal speed there is some drag, then when if all go's well when power is drawn, before the sine wave is dragged down (which causes lens to show and slow the motor) limiting the output the generator, the motor (prime mover) will increase power to overcome it so there is more power availiable for more load.

Otherwise you just ran out of output.

The higher impedance of the coil and the higher frequency I think will seriously limit the ability of the coil to output power. But I might be wrong.

I still don't get it. A Muller is different.

I agree that lenz is a different monster than cogging. However, your original criticism (not in a bad way) was questioning the power input required to overcome cogging AND lenz. I simply wanted you to realize that you can't criticize OG's current power input requirements because when you remove cogging from the equation you reduce the required input power that much more.

Lenz is a whole different story. I have some ideas to overcome it, but they don't assume high speed is all you need. In fact, I believe you can overcome lenz at lower magnet speeds by designing a coil that relates the magnets strength to the cores hysteresis loop. But that is for another thread, another time, and waiting for me to generate some data to back it up.

My original point holds, by designing a lenz tricking generator using a non whole coil to magnet ratio, you cancel out the energy needed to overcome cogging.

[Farmhand]

I have to admitt, you are right. It all helps. And could very well be a big benifit to many situations, including both motors and generators like windmills and such. The thing is a motor generator needs to be able to power a load not just go faster. Swapping electrical output for speed, I see no use for unless for driving a wheel like a car or something and then does load on the rotor like that cause more power to be consumed or less ? Or does some load cause more speed ?

It needs to be somehow usefull.

With a solid state setup I just tune it to give more power if i want it, up to a limit of of course, things will get warm if it's overdone, and that uses more input power, but it is still efficient.

I hope I don't seem like a big wowser , I like to see things spin fast too.
AlternateFarmhand1's Channel - YouTube

There could be something to it, but I think it could be more related to an increase in rotational speed or rotational power for efficiency than electrical output, from what I've seen. I admitt I haven't seen all the video's related to this stuff either.

All research is good.

Cheers

[Mr.Whip]

Hello I just had a comment on Farmhands post

In my simple way of looking at things cogging is different to Lenz, because cogging will happen without any power being developed like when turning by hand. But Lens I think is caused by electricity. So eliminating cogging should not automatically eliminate Lenz. I don't think.

On my motor I have 6 coils and 6 magnets lots of cogging. But at 12.09 V and 200ma I can short the coils and the motor speeds up motor draw iis still only 200ma So I'm in agreement with the statments that coil impedence and freq.- speed of magnets passing coils makes a huge difference and a delayed or Less lenz effect present. There is defently a window of oppertunity here to advance these effect.


When the generator is spinning its magnets past the coils with no load at normal speed there is some drag, then when if all go's well when power is drawn, before the sine wave is dragged down (which causes lens to show and slow the motor) limiting the output the generator, the motor (prime mover) will increase power to overcome it so there is more power availiable for more load.

My simple Bedini swith does not require more power when loaded. But motor will have to be strong enough to sustain its rotational speed to manage load true.

Thanks

Randy W.

[Allen Burgess]

Lenz delay proof.

Here's yet another concrete video demonstration of the "Lenz Delay Propulsion" effect uploaded yesterday by "mariuscivic":

strange behavior of the coil - YouTube

[Farmhand]

Here's yet another concrete video demonstration of the "Lenz Delay Propulsion" effect uploaded yesterday by "mariuscivic":

strange behavior of the coil - YouTube

To me it looks like the rotor sped up without the bulb/load as well, and probably just as much or more than when shorted. Or did you miss that ? And when the coil was loaded and then shorted the load stopped receiving power because the generator coil became a motor coil using the power it generated itself to speed up the rotor, at this point it kind of stopped being a generator and just became a motor.

Seems like a very similar effect to what Overunityguide showed but with a rotor speed increase as well as using a bit less power. I noticed the volts meter voltage rose when the coil was shorted so less load on the supply.

Still he is correct it is strange behavior of the coil for sure ! Especially if you want to light the second bulb but when you connect it they both go out and the rotor speeds up. But for what? If the rotor is loaded mechanically or with other generator coils it will use more power again or go faster.

Is the point to get electrical output or just to spin a rotor really fast ?

I also think if it was just delaying Lenz there would still be electrical output from the coil, but the load is robbed of power.

Cheers