Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect

[qvision]

Thanks OUG.

I have been experimenting with the short circuit acceleration affect at different RPM's, here are the results :

AUL EFFECT 0.5 VOLTAGE RANGE TEST.xls

DSC01433.JPG

[Overunityguide]

Hello from Australia. My understanding of the delayed lenz effect is that the output current is out of phase with the the magnetic flux that created it therefore the lenz law flux can be timed to coincide with the departure of the magnate and 'push' it away, hence an rpm increase.

Surely the same effect can be obtained by inserting a suitable inductor in series with the load? The current through the inductor coil gets delayed by the inductance. Seeing as it is in series with the generator coil, the current drawn from the generator coil is also phase delayed behind the generating flux.

Which means you can tune most off-the-shelf generators with a suitable external inductor in series with each winding to get it to run in lenz-push mode.

Hello Sydney, Unfortuanatiilly I have to disappoint you, not every off-the-self generator can be equipped with extra external series inductors. Of course you can do so, but your results won't be satisfying. Here is the reason why:

If you would match the normal 50 Hz / 60 Hz of a normal generator coil with an external inductor to get over the lenz delay treshold. Then you would see that you would need really really high inductance. (which in theory is possible of course) But really really high inductance would bring one drawback with it, and that is the internal resistance. So the internal resistance of the really really high inductance would result in really really high internal resistance, which will result in almost no usable output.

So for now the most practicable way to get and use the Delayed Lenz effect is to go to high rpm / frequency and high inductance / impedance with an acceptable internal resistance.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Most Recent, Regenerative Acceleration Effect inside a Transformer:
Transformer Part 2, the Delayed Lenz Effect with Scope Shots - YouTube

[Overunityguide]

Thanks OUG.

I have been experimenting with the short circuit acceleration affect at different RPM's, here are the results :

AUL EFFECT 0.5 VOLTAGE RANGE TEST.xls

DSC01433.JPG

Hello qvision,

Based on what I saw on your photo, I am feeling that you use a thick wire, you can get the delayed lenz effect easier by making use of a thin wire for your coil with many turns... (high impedance)

Keep up the good work, And With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Most Recent, Regenerative Acceleration Effect inside a Transformer:
Transformer Part 2, the Delayed Lenz Effect with Scope Shots - YouTube

[Sydney]

Regarding the above OverunityGuide post. Firstly much thanks to OverunityGuide for doing all the good videos.

At 200hz the phase shift between V&A occurs so that you can put more flux into the core and transfer the 'power' into the load.

At 940hz you get no phase shift and therefore don't get any additional flux going into the core for the load. Which means the load can only draw power from whatever flux was being created by the primary during no-load conditions. I don't really see much advantage on that path.

With a permanent magnet generator, a suitably delayed lenz flux can apparently push the rotor pole and increase the rpm, but keep in mind that any V-A phase shift will lower the power-factor so to keep the power-out at a maximum you need to keep the phase shift to a minimum. The best compromise would be a generator with many closely packed poles (like a stepper motor with 1.8 degrees per step) so that as little as 1.8 degree current lag can give you a pole push with very little negative effect on power factor.

The question yet to be answered is whether this would constitute an overunity situation. The laws of nature always seem to take away our enthusiasm and I suspect that when true power (power factor of 1 ) readings are taken of input and output then we might be disappointed yet again, but I hope not.

[Sydney]

Correcting my above '1.8 degree current lag' statement. 1.8 degrees would be the shaft step size which has nothing to do with the V-A phase difference.

On a pole by pole basis the current would always need to peak midway between poles in order push away the creating pole and attract the next pole. This implies a low power factor per pole.

Having many poles just means you can achieve this at lower rpm

[citfta]

Having many poles just means you can achieve this at lower rpm

I am not picking on Sydney in particular because he is just saying the same thing I have seen several other people say. But he is talking about delaying the Lenz effect by the speed at which the magnets approach the coil. I agree that a lot of the experiments we have seen do seem to be showing this effect. I disagree that adding more poles allows us to achieve this at a lower rpm.

Think about this for a minute. We have a rotor with magnets in a 8 inch circle. Lets say there are four of them. Now lets turn the rotor at 1000 rpm. I haven't done the math so lets just say the speed of the magnet approaching the coil is X. And this X is not enough in this case to delay the Lenz effect. Now lets add 4 more magnets. Now lets rotate the rotor at the same 1000 rpm. Have we changed the speed at which the magnets are approaching the coils. No we have not. We are still approaching the coils at a speed of X. We have changed the frequency of ac we would be getting from all the coils together but not the speed of the magnets approach to the coil. From all the testing done so far it seems that for the same coil and core and magnet configuration the speed of the magnets approach is one of the critical elements we have to look at not the frequency of the AC output. But adding more magnets to the rotor does not change the approach speed. I hope this helps someone to understand the difference between speed of the magnets and frequency of the generated signal.

Respectfully, Carroll

[Allen Burgess]

Core magnets.

@overunityguide,

Do you think it would help the secondary output by raising the lamination core saturation level with the addition of a few small magnets? The experiment would begin to resemble JLN's 2SGen.

[Sydney]

@ citfta

No problem, the usefulness of the forum is for us to share ideas and discuss, eventually learning enough to get a result.

I understand it like this. For the lenz-push to occur, the lenz flux must be delayed until the centre of the rotor pole has moved past the centre of the stator coil, or it will oppose the motion. In a two pole rotor at 1000 rpm it takes 180 degrees of arc for that to occur. In a 50 pole rotor at 1000 rpm it take 360/50 degrees to pass centre which is a much shorter time and therefore a push effect can be achieved with a lower rpm or a lower coil inductance compared to a 2 pole rotor.

My assumption is based on a 2 pole rotor having 2 big magnets which each occupy nearly half the circumference. However, if the 2 pole magnets are the same small physical size as the 50 pole magnets then I agree with you that adding more poles would not reduce the required lenz delay.

I guess the rule for the delay time would come down to the speed and physical size of the rotor pole magnet, not the amount of poles.

[Overunityguide]

Regarding the above OverunityGuide post. Firstly
At 940hz you get no phase shift and therefore don't get any additional flux going into the core for the load. Which means the load can only draw power from whatever flux was being created by the primary during no-load conditions. I don't really see much advantage on that path.

@Sydney,

At 950 Hz There sure is Flux going to the secondary as a result of driving the primary at 950 Hz. So no: 'whatever flux' This flux will be used by the secondary. The only interesting thing what is taking place at 950 Hz is that the high impedance secondary coil isn't fast enough to create back EMF. Instead of creating back EMF it is riding on the flux wave created by the primary. But is not opposing it... So in this case, the primary won't be affected in a negative way, so that for now we can supply real power to the load on the secondary side, while running the primary coil purely reactive!
So sorry, but I do see much advantage in this.

Please watch:
Transformer Part 2, the Delayed Lenz Effect with Scope Shots - YouTube
for more information...

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

[Mario]

Hi Overunityguide and all,

thanks for sharing your vids and results. It would be interesting to put one probe on the secondary coil and see what happens between the primary and secondary voltage with and without load, you'll probably see a phase shift at 950 Hz. The only problem will be the hi voltage on the secondary in no load condition, don't know the limit of your o-scope.

I've also done quite a few tests rotored and solid state versions, also including resonance. When you hit the resonant frequency of the secondary (rotor or solid state) the secondary reflects the biggest possible load to the primary, even without an actual load on the secondary, just through resonant action, be it with the coils natural resonant freq. or using a parallel cap.

Anyway I'm saying this because I've noticed that your input power didn't decrease while you were dialing from 200 to 950 Hz, which it should since the impedance of primary is going up. it's also possible that at 950 Hz you are getting close to a resonant or sub-resonant spot of your secondary.
In that case it would mean that you would see an increased primary consumption in no load condition, and decreased primary consumption in load condition because the load, depending on its resistance, is shorting and diminishing the resonant condition.

regards,
Mario

[Overunityguide]

Hi Overunityguide and all,
I've noticed that your input power didn't decrease while you were dialing from 200 to 950 Hz, which it should since the impedance of primary is going up.
regards,
Mario

Hello Mario,

The power didn't decrease because of my setting to the U/f characteristics in my frequency drive controller. At 200 Hz it tries to put 60 Volts rms to the load (by a Puls Width Modulation / PWM Signal...) And I have programmed my Frequency drive controller so that at 950 Hz it will put out 120 Volts rms PWM. So there’s the reason why at the total bandwidth its staying at around 20 Watts...

In this video you can see both values on my frequency drive controller display: Transformer Delayed Lenz Effect - YouTube

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

[Mario]

Hello Mario,

The power didn't decrease because of my setting to the U/f characteristics in my frequency drive controller. At 200 Hz it tries to put 60 Volts rms to the load (by a Puls Width Modulation / PWM Signal...) And I have programmed my Frequency drive controller so that at 950 Hz it will put out 120 Volts rms PWM. So there’s the reason why at the total bandwidth its staying at around 20 Watts...

In this video you can see both values on my frequency drive controller display: Transformer Delayed Lenz Effect - YouTube

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide

Hi Overunityguide,

I see, that explains it

It still would be interesting to put a probe on the secondary and compare the voltage phase between the two coils.
Btw, here's an interesting site, sorry in case you've already seen it, check page 10 and specially the graphs on page 11.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/

regards,
Mario

[qvision]

@ OUG, i didn't see any phase shifting in the video, only an amplitude change, but it is hard to see with the PWM frequency in the way.

@ Citfta

Having ran staged voltage tests on both an Adams style rotor and a single diametrically magnetised magnet i now think the speed of the rotor doesn't 'cause' the effect.

I have had the effect from 1100 RPM and all the way up to the max RPM of whatever device.

It seems to me this is all about coil design, obviously more magnets is a higher frequency and therefore more power out, once a working coil design is achieved.

Here are my results if you haven't seen them, i saved the spreadsheet scrolled to the right so you have to scroll to the left to see the start :

AUL EFFECT 0.5 VOLTAGE RANGE TEST.xls

DSC01433.JPG


An addition to this, i did the maths for the speed of the magnet and the RPM's were just ridiculkous and nothing like what people were seeing on the bench.

Here is the spreadsheet for that :

lenzbend.xls

[hatchi]

To.Sydney

[I guess the rule for the delay time would come down to the speed and physical size of the rotor pole magnet, not the amount of poles]

I am no more than agree with you !!!

Impressive.

[Allen Burgess]

Resonance.

Interesting video:


Resonance in a Bifilar Coil - YouTube