Peter Daysh Davey Water Heater Query

[evolvingape]

Vortex tubes, interesting technology, temperature separation in fluid flows and harmonic frequencies observed:

http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/200513271.pdf

RM

[PhysicsProf]

Thanks for the vids, Rob, especially the one on resonance.

Yesterday evening, 28 Feb 2012 -- I performed some experiments involving BOILING, both in the control experiment (using an electric kettle and bringing a measured amount of water to boiling) and with my two-bell sonic boiler (2BSB).

CONTROL run was instructive. Attached photos show the Kaloric electric kettle once again. Note that the jug can be simply removed from the electric-power-supply-base. This makes measuring the weight of the jug and jug+water (shown on the right) straightforward, with no cord to worry about. The weight/mass scale can handle up to 5000 g, which is plenty for these experiments (so far).

Measuring the weight of the jug+water, I was rather surprised at how much evaporation took place AFTER boiling had been reached, if the jug was left sitting with lid opened. Tens of grams evaporated over a period of about a half hour, observed.
Also, water mass is lost during the warm up to near 100C also. These are important effects, significant to the measurement of efficiency. I can see how ERRORS could easily be made! Water spitting out of the vessel (as water, not steam) is another potential problem causing measurement error.

Having observed the magnitude of these easy-to-make errors, I re-emphasize that any claims of ou need to be checked by an independent person or lab. And a CONTROL absolutely MUST be run, the same way that the DUT run is performed.

I found using the control that if I would first heat the water to near boiling with the lid closed, then weigh the vessel, then proceed with boiling -- then weigh again, the input electrical energy agreed with the output heat as determined from the mass evaporated:

Qevap = 2261 J/g * delta-mass (the mass of the evaporated water)

As Nerzh showed, since 3600 J = 1 W-hr, then we can express this equation for Qevap in terms of W-hours:

Q evap = 2261J/g *1 W-hr/3600 J * delta-mass

= 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams.

For the control run, heating the water using the Kaloric electric kettle itself plugged into the energy meter, the mass just before the 2BSB run was 1991g and just after, 1947g, for a mass change of 44g. So

Qevap = 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams = 0.628 * (1991g - 1947g) = 29.5 W-h (output energy).

The input electrical power I measured with a watt-hour meter, which I calibrated recently by measuring temperature rise in water and determining Q that way, see equation in an earlier post, as well as comparing with another brand of watt-hour meter for consistency. The watt-hour meter that reads down to 0.1 W-hr is about 4% high, so that is a minor correction easy to make.

The input power was then measured as 29.8 W-hrs for the control, which is in very good agreement:
calculated efficiency is n = energy-out/energy-in = 29.5/29.8 = 99%.

I like this method, then I applied the same approach, weighing the water before and after and this time using the 2bellSB, and found:

Qevap = 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams = 0.628 * (1742g - 1700g) = 26.4 W-h (output energy).

The input energy from the calibrated energy meter = 22.3 W-h, so there appears about 18% excess energy during boiling, using the 2-bell device I built. Scientific caution here: needs more testing, more data.

Of course, I ran the experiment again, longer this time. Unfortunately -- there was a bright flash and a circuit breaker was thrown. I found that the data on the energy meter was lost... I found the scar where one bell had managed to touch the other, no doubt under the force of steam pressure between the bells. I can recover, but that's all for now... Note that vigorous boiling was occurring just before the pop.

I'm planning to build another 2-bell system, this time with holes in the tops of the bells to allow steam to escape more readily. Is anyone else still doing experiments of this type?

I do think that the sonic boiler works "better" while producing steam, based on others' comments and my own experiments. Kinda fun...

[evolvingape]

Warm water vibrates longer than cold water

Explanation of the Phase Anomalies of Water (P1-P12)

It is expected that the lifetime of an excited molecular vibration should decrease as the temperature increases as the energy and likelihood of interactions with other molecules also both increase. For example, the lifetime of the excited liquid HCl stretch vibration decreases from 2.1 ns at 173 K to 1.0 ns at 248 K.

In liquid water, the excited OH-stretch vibration has a lifetime of 0.26 ps at 298 K and this lifetime increases to 0.32 ps at 358 K [592]. The reason for this is due to the effects of the hydrogen-bonded network. The OH-stretch vibration normally relaxes by transferring energy to an overtone of the H-O-H bending vibration. However, as the temperature increases the hydrogen bonds of water get weaker, which leads to an increase of the frequency of the stretch vibration and a decrease of the frequency of the bending vibration. As a result, the overtone of the bending mode shifts out of resonance with the stretching mode, thereby making the energy transfer less likely.

Keep in mind that you may have to "hit a moving target" as the variables change through time

RM

[evolvingape]

Martin Chaplin

For those of you wondering who is the author of a lot of information I reference regarding water, his name is Martin Chaplin, Emeritus Professor of Applied Science at London South Bank University:

Martin Chaplin

Reference #1 of this Wikipedia page is:

Superheated water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chaplin, Martin (2008-01-04). "Explanation of the physical anomalies of water". London South Bank University. Retrieved 2008-01-15.

Here is one of his papers that is most interesting for those interested in water's relationship to life and it's hydrogen bonding network:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0706/0706.1355.pdf

RM

[boguslaw]

Charging water with Singing Bowl - YouTube

"Charging water in a tibetan singing bowl... Water does have a memory, and can be energized... I show this by how the water will respond... Notice howlong it takes to charge it the first time... But after stopping it and starting over, how much faster it picks up the previous vibration... This means the water has got some kind of memory (it holds the influence of vibration) .. Also notice, that once this point is reached, the increase of energy goes much faster after this first charge.

Have fun watching, and tell me your ideas about his, and what to do with it"

thank you

[evolvingape]

Superheated Electrolysis and Adiabatic Compression

You might find this interesting:

Superheated Electrolysis and Adiabatic Compression

You can experiment with the sonic boiler and resonance phenomenon using superheated water. Hydrogen bonds break down at the higher temperatures so you may get different results to water at atmospheric pressure. I designed this for HHO production but it was not until Chet invited me over to this thread that I found out about AC electrode boilers, which was the missing part of the puzzle I needed to make it happen. So thanks Chet, and Slovenia, and everyone, it was really helpful!

You might find this information interesting as well:

Thermal runaway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thermal runaway refers to a situation where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback.

J. Appl. Phys. 85, 3774 (1999); Thermal profiles and thermal runaway in microwave heated slabs (6 pages)

C. A. Vriezinga

This oscillation, combined with the heat loss, is found to be responsible for thermal runaway phenomenon in isothermal objects.

J. Appl. Phys. 83, 438 (1998); Thermal runaway in microwave heated isothermal slabs, cylinders, and spheres (5 pages)

C. A. Vriezinga

This is caused by the specific characteristic of the dielectric loss factor of water, which decreases with increasing temperature. This results in an almost constant absorption of energy over the whole slab without disturbing the wave character of the absorption. It turned out that this smoothing of the absorbed power plays a dominant role in the calculations of the temperature profiles. Any calculation where the temperature dependence of the permittivity is omitted, will not only pass the phenomenon of thermal runaway, but its temperature profiles will differ substantially from the ones where the temperature dependence has been taken into account.

Dielectric Loss definition of Dielectric Loss in the Free Online Encyclopedia.

The following article is from The Great Soviet Encyclopedia (1979). It might be outdated or ideologically biased.

Dielectric Loss

the portion of the energy of an alternating electrical field in a dielectric medium that is converted into heat. When the value and direction of the field intensity E change, the dielectric polarization also varies in value and direction; during one cycle of an alternating field the polarization is established twice and disappears twice. If the dielectric is made up of molecules that are dipoles themselves (polar molecules) or contain weakly bound ions, the orientation or displacement of these particles in an electrical field (orientation polarization) requires a definite time (relaxation time). As a result, the polarization maximum does not occur simultaneously with the maximum of the field intensity—that is, there is a phase shift between field intensity and polarization. Because of this there is also a phase difference between the field intensity E and the electrical induction D, which causes the energy loss W∊. In a vector representation of the variables, it is possible to say that the electrical induction vector lags behind the electrical field vector by a certain angle 8, which is known as the dielectric loss angle. When molecules or ions are oriented by the field, they collide with other particles, thus dissipating energy. If the relaxation time T many times greater than the period T of the alternation of the applied field, polarization is barely able to develop and the dielectric loss is very small. At low frequencies, where the relaxation time T is considerably less than the period T, the polarization follows the field and the dielectric loss is also small because the number of reorientations per unit time is small. The dielectric loss is highest when the equality ω = 1/τ is satisfied, where ω the circular frequency of the electrical field: ω = 2π/T.

The mechanism described for the relaxation dielectric loss takes place in solid and liquid dielectrics that contain polar molecules or weakly bound ions. The magnitude of the relaxation dielectric loss in a liquid depends on its viscosity, the temperature, and the frequency of the applied field. For non-viscous liquids (water or alcohol) this loss appears in the centimeter wavelength range. In polymers that contain polar groups it is possible to orient both individual polar radicals and the longer or shorter molecular chains.

In dielectrics with ion and electron polarization, matter can be regarded as a set of oscillators experiencing induced oscillations, accompanied by energy dissipation, in an alternating electrical field (see Figure 1). However, if the frequency of the electrical field is much higher or lower than the natural frequency of the oscillators, the energy dissipation—and therefore the dielectric loss—is negligible. At frequencies comparable to the natural frequency of the oscillators, the energy dissipation and the dielectric loss W∊ are high; a maximum occurs when these frequencies are equal, ω = ωn (Figure 2). For electron polarization the maximum loss corresponds to the optical frequency range. In dielectrics that are made up of ions (for example, alkaline-halide crystals) the polarization is due to the elastic displacement of the ions, and the maximum loss occurs in the infrared frequency range (10^12-10^13Hz).

Since real dielectrics have some electrical conductivity, there are energy losses that are caused by the electrical current flow in them (Joule loss) and are not frequency-dependent.

The dielectric loss in a dielectric placed between the plates of a capacitor is found from the relation

W∊ = U2ωC tan δ

where U is the voltage on the capacitor plates, C is the capacitance of the capacitor, and tan 8 is the tangent of the dielectric loss angle. The loss for 1 cu cm of a dielectric in a uniform field E is

W∊ = E2ω∊ tan δ

where ∊ is the dielectric constant.

The product ∊ tan δ is called the dielectric loss factor. A reduction of the dielectric loss is very important for the production of capacitors and in the technology of electrical insulation. High dielectric loss is used for dielectric heating in a high-frequency electrical field.

Resonance in the Atmoosphere of Enceladus

The forces behind the giant ice crystal plumes of the geysers of Enceladus are unmistakable in this context due to the fact that the geysers are aligned in parallel rows! The water venting at these geyser sites is superheated by the intense infrasound resonance of Enceladus, which focuses the equatorial pull of Saturn into a north-south polar axis, heating the south polar region.

The ejected superhot water immediately forms fine ice crystals which are raised high above the surface as plumes along the wavepaths of standing infrasound (animated above). The individual geysers display a Fibonacci-ordered distribution pattern as measured along the 'tiger stripes' which reveals the driving presence of nonlinear standing waves, the exact frequencies of which may be determined by measuring the exact distances between the individual geysers.

This same phenomenon of infrasound stimulated water vapor plumes was also recently photograhged off the California coast at Aliso Beach. The infrasound standing wave resonance pattern based on the quantum iterated function [ zn+1 = zn^2 ] are observable in galaxies, quasars, the solar corona and in the atmospheres of Earth, Jupiter, Uranus, Saturn and its moons Eceladus and Titan.

PicoTwist

Forces involved at the biological level

Have fun!

RM

[evolvingape]

I put this out there ages ago because I did not have time to develop it as a HHO cell to compete with efficiency of dry cell HHO designs, however a lot of my work is based around the everyman wet cell design for pressure applications and on demand fuel processing, will also work very well as an electrode boiler:

Everyman HHO Cell

If your dealing with anything more than low HHO expansion pressure you will need this. Dry cell designs are low pressure only as the seals will blow out. Still needs more development for pressure applications (electrical isolation under very high pressure without any plastic or rubber) but I am not going to be working on this for a while. Need a rest.

Here is a list of my other stuff which has handy info sprinkled liberally throughout, might find what your looking for there:

Phoenix Turbine Builders Club Forum

RM

[evolvingape]

Type K High Pressure Thermocouples

I have added some new information in the other thread reply #79 that is relevant here, high pressure housings need high pressure temperature sensors, and for resonance investigation of superheated water that is what you are going to need, so have a look if you are interested:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post184461

Rob

[reddpill]

Walter Russell, Les Brown and Peter Davey.

This is the hardest part to find the frequency of standing wave current of 60 Hertz. What We Don't Know: The required gap between the anode electrode and cathode electrode.

I think we have been given the answer by several people already. Here are the clues...

Clue One:


Clue Two:
Russellian Science: TEC - Part 10 - The Inert Gases, The Spiritual Elements! - YouTube

Clue Three:
Les Brown and the basic Law Of Nature. Walter Russell Motion. - YouTube

Clue Four:
Les Browns 'cube root of pi' or the Fourth root of pi( 3.141592654 ^0.25 = 1.33133) and is close to a 4:3 ratio or a perfect fourth in relation to an octave.

Using the basic law of Nature you can calculate the distance needed to find out the size or gap of the 'fifth' or outer ring based on the first for the standing wave within the device. While also ensuring that the resonance or frequency is matched and increased accordingly based on the inner ring or 'input'.

- The diameter of the fifth ring will give you the circumference of the first ring.

[MonsieurM]

I think we have been given the answer by several people already. Here are the clues...

Clue One:


Clue Two:
Russellian Science: TEC - Part 10 - The Inert Gases, The Spiritual Elements! - YouTube

Clue Three:
Les Brown and the basic Law Of Nature. Walter Russell Motion. - YouTube

Clue Four:
Les Browns 'cube root of pi' or the Fourth root of pi( 3.141592654 ^0.25 = 1.33133) and is close to a 4:3 ratio or a perfect fourth in relation to an octave.

Using the basic law of Nature you can calculate the distance needed to find out the size or gap of the 'fifth' or outer ring based on the first for the standing wave within the device. While also ensuring that the resonance or frequency is matched and increased accordingly based on the inner ring or 'input'.

- The diameter of the fifth ring will give you the circumference of the first ring.

thank you reddpill ..... always a pleasure reading you

[wrtner]

This is the hardest part to find the frequency of standing
wave current of 60 Hertz.

The wavelength of a 60hz sound wave (not electromagnetic wave)
is 18.7 feet.

A standing wave should be achievable at half this, 9.35 feet.
Not very convenient, I'm afraid.

See:
Wavelength frequency convert lambda Hz sound conversion acoustics acoustic audio radio speed of sound and radio waves wave length light vacuum equation formula for frequency speed of light color spectrum - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

[reddpill]

Not very convenient, I'm afraid.

Not very convenient for who, you?

I noticed that you completely ignored the actual tangible information in the post about the size of the rings and the gap distance. Did you consider what effect the TWO (or even more due to the 3 other rings) frequencies would have within this device as it reflects upon itself multiple times and steps up in natural harmonics due to natural law? We're not dealing with just one full 'wavelength' in an AIR medium as you suggest, just like we don't see cymatics researchers using football fields to do their experiments.

[David Fine]

Hello Reddpill

Hi Reddpill,

Very nice to hear from you!! The device works very well indeed. I'm not an electrical type myself, but some guys here have been very successful with the heaters. Pretty much a free heating scenario.

Best Regards,
David Fine (Slovenia)

I think we have been given the answer by several people already. Here are the clues...

Clue One:

Clue Two:
Russellian Science: TEC - Part 10 - The Inert Gases, The Spiritual Elements! - YouTube

Clue Three:
Les Brown and the basic Law Of Nature. Walter Russell Motion. - YouTube

Clue Four:
Les Browns 'cube root of pi' or the Fourth root of pi( 3.141592654 ^0.25 = 1.33133) and is close to a 4:3 ratio or a perfect fourth in relation to an octave.

Using the basic law of Nature you can calculate the distance needed to find out the size or gap of the 'fifth' or outer ring based on the first for the standing wave within the device. While also ensuring that the resonance or frequency is matched and increased accordingly based on the inner ring or 'input'.

- The diameter of the fifth ring will give you the circumference of the first ring.

[reddpill]

Very nice to hear from you!! The device works very well indeed. I'm not an electrical type myself, but some guys here have been very successful with the heaters. Pretty much a free heating scenario.

Yeah , I've been following the thread and seen that it does. It's fantastic. What I was hoping to achieve was to put together the 'science' behind it or theory so everyone could quite easily figure out how to make one no matter the size of the rings and frequency of the ring length/height within the water, which determines the Hz.

As once this is understood, any frequency and ring size could be used to 'naturally' and harmonically step up the size of the device and in the future, the 'electrical' component of the device could be eliminated and use just a resonance frequency for the input.



On a side note of the 'electrical' component, one thing I don't understand as I'm not electrically minded either, is how electricity, water and this device works without shortening out or electrocuting one?

[David Fine]

Serbian Boiler Diagrams

Hi Reddpill,

Earlier in the thread I provided diagrams on the Serbian boiler. There are several variations of the boiler. The one with the lid seems the easiest to tune. If you go back and look at those diagrams you'll see that good grounding at the right points is necessary as well as some other attributes. Anyway, electrical shock was not an issue to those who were following the directions in the diagram. Without grounds placed in the proper places electrocution would be very probable.

It works, but to explain how and why it works is a hard thing. It's almost like a miracle device that just works and we accept that. Peter Davey provided a lot of theory and I think our Serbian contact could too. But, the physics is pretty heavy reading. If asked Professor Savic would probably write something out for us.

Best Regards,
David Fine

Yeah , I've been following the thread and seen that it does. It's fantastic. What I was hoping to achieve was to put together the 'science' behind it or theory so everyone could quite easily figure out how to make one no matter the size of the rings and frequency of the ring length/height within the water, which determines the Hz.

As once this is understood, any frequency and ring size could be used to 'naturally' and harmonically step up the size of the device and in the future, the 'electrical' component of the device could be eliminated and use just a resonance frequency for the input.



On a side note of the 'electrical' component, one thing I don't understand as I'm not electrically minded either, is how electricity, water and this device works without shortening out or electrocuting one?