Peter Daysh Davey Water Heater Query

[wrtner]

UK only - probably - only for a few days.

Here are some interesting SS bowls. Buying two sets for £20 will give a lot of scope for experimentation ...

... particularly if we reckon that, if the bowls are tuned together, even if they are not sounding at 50hz or an octave thereof, if we feed in electricity at the frequency they do resonate at, then the effect should still work.

[Duncan]

Bells Balls and pages and pages of Bollix

I start to suspect this is nothing to do with tunes, bells and whistles -





Heating water with a resistive element is basically a straight line graph ergo it takes the same ammount of energy to raise 1 litre of water from 10 deg to 30 deg as it does to raise the water from 30deg to 50 deg nothing to be won or lost there!
I Invite you to watch this none to safe video I took a few years ago. Its not COP>1 its very far from it. It isn't meant to be! what I do want you to notice is the amp draw isn't linear --- Its a long long way from a linear graph.
also notice boiling is almost instant at to closest points (where the handles join the bowel). Also note very well -
when the water is fully boiling current draw is almost zero that really is important .
Peters trick might then be to keep the water boiling all the time !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAksvLyaJ0

although no ammeter this clip showes the instant boiling effect better ,which becomes important as you'll see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iiWGel3q50

you have little or no control over the temperature of a pot of cold water but you can control the air pressure and that dramatically alters the boiling point.
do you see the tiny rust mark on the bottom of Peter's ball shown above? assume its a throttled hole into the ball.
1/ A little water enters the ball and boils 2/ The main cavity of the Ball fills with steam 3/ The ball is plunged into cold water the steam condenses and so creates a powerful (controlled) vacuum. and so it goes on.
here's a few infant school video's which should connect the whole together for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5mkf066p-U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0TQxYemrgg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lyqFkFsH28

Peter is using 230 volt mains ,and so was I, but anything could be used - 9 volt battery - 110 volts whatever .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msr0...H0ThIeetHov04A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZoiY3FvxKo

kind regards Duncan

[boguslaw]

Thanks Duncan.We can mark this device as solved. Now only missing is the prototype.The pressure or some sound wave can definitely allow to boil water faster and with less energy taken because the main problem with water boiling is to break Van der Waals forces.

Do you think the base of lamp could contain some elements ? I wonder about mixing crude DC (a capacitor to limit current and diode bridge) with AC to produce some level of HHO first - it may speed up process. Is this doable ?

[Duncan]

Boguslaw great to hear from you again - alas its been some time. I have intentionally left anything sub atomic open to experiment and conjecture (truth is I don't have the nous to go there). I need folks to give this thing a shot and test everything I project with their own devising and methods and then oh wow - a big ask - be honest enough to return to the thread with their results. I am pretty sure this can be engineered and 'worked' I also believe Michael Tellinger is correct in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFlQ6z_qqoU

It really is going to take 'us all' so folks go away and think -- think and test. Boguslaw there is (just by observation) in practice slight de-grading of the stainless steel plates (spoons bowls funnels whatever) but I'm an engineer and simply manipulate what actually happens why it actually does what it does is a different zone - perhaps Casimire effect?
regardless I hope folks test it. probe it, design a safe tank that will heat a house and then bring it back to this thread!
I'll try and beat you !
The battle of Britain - for years these islands stood alone . The mighty force that was unleashed and had conquered Europe was directed at the South coast of England and london . Unlike natives Peter Davey (the guy your studying) volunteered to go into that maelstrom. each year something like 60% of his squadron were no more. Their kill rate was just slightly better
Just my opinion you understand , but I think Peter, his thinking , his device , should have been given a 'fair go' It wasn't !!
Its now up to us all as Michael Tellinger explains to simply push it over the finish line with brute force. - No profit to be had here but if you help our children and grandchildren might (just might) have a planet to live on.



As far as I can tell Peter and hundreds like him have been pissed on. I would ask you to test what I see and report . If I'm wrong so be it, but its not me that needs convincing anyway is it? My kindest regards Duncan

[Duncan]

Hi Ramset - no pump required. Its a Mason jar and its been previously evacuated . revise graphs boiling point of water to air pressure you'll find its not a straight line graph.
As I have shown current (energy) to boiling point is also not a straight line graph .
a bit of maxima and minima and double differentiation and all that good stuff - gives an answer.
An answer I'm not going to offer because it only applies locally . That might seem a bit churlish Ramset but there's lots of variables do you see ?. water . voltage, pressure , and so it goes on -- folks are going to have to suck this and see.
I believe Peter Davey was straight as a die ! I however could be very wrong - Go test it

[RAMSET]

Thanks

Its easy enuff to play in the water
and now the ability to experiment is soo much easier

Will keep you posted here

respectfully
Chet K

[Duncan]

Oh wow 'Van der Waals' I thought it was a pox you got off rats . more pages of reading now! thanks a bundle Boguslaw I hope to oblige you likewise sometime in the near future. kindest regards Duncan

[Duncan]

a bit more of a taster for you

OK Chet you sound determined to re-visit this little project and as far as I'm concerned the more (and the quicker they arrive) the merrier. what I've seen needs duplicating we've rubbed shoulders for a long time and I would hate to see you (or anyone else for that matter hurt with this thing) so please be careful with what I have suggested.
water and electric along with a few loonies make bad bed fellows. Still here's a few tips and observations which might help but If you recall Lewis Carroll and the concept of an un-birthday . I'm forced to do something of the same with current electrical theory - aye stuff I've even taught just as it was in turn taught to me. I'm not relying on the theory here rather punching holes in it in a very un-electric way.
Remember the clip we probably all saw first ? This one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTV85J2QHj0

Beverly Lockhart tells us as soon as it comes in contact with water -- It boils, why didn't anybody apart from me listen to her?
Prof Peter Williamson tells us - Its the conductivity of the water - He has to, standard physics has no other answer to offer.(normally neither would I - this thing isn't normal)
So just FYI and to help you engineer I'll guide you through my own simplified thought process regarding this thing and starting with the way Prof Williamson has been trained to think. (me too)
this is standard physics, the dogma of 120 years . electrical energy = power x time (hence Kw/hrs)
In AC circuits the current is shown to lead or lag the voltage depending on if the circuit is capacitive or inductive. however the only useful and usable power is taught to be that which is 'in phase' as far as any student is concerned that means 'resistance' (or its inverse if you like as the good Prof tells us 'the conductance of the water').
Its not surprising we are all trained that the only 'real' energy is a result of I^2R and there ends electrical physics. If you should have the temerity to ask why this 'out of phase' should be corrected the answer that comes back is 'it wastes energy' . oh and how pray ? as heat ! as heat is the very epitome of energy. It makes something of the square peg that won't fit the round hole. uses energy in unexpected places might be a better answer - But thats a horse of a very different colour! It wasn't answered to my satisfaction years ago and nothings changed.
Before I go very much further I would like you to dwell for a moment on the short badly filmed clip I showed you this one -

http://www.energeticforum.com/redire...?v=teAksvLyaJ0

Do you see at the end of the clip the water is boiling furiously whilst the current draw falls away to almost nothing? since I am connected to the grid that current fall is pretty much proportional to power .
In short you have a quantity of water boiling furiously using very little energy.
any Plumbers here heard of an indirect heating coil ? - go heat a radiator or two !
In homes by far the biggest energy consumption is heating water.
This then has massive implications ! However for the moment lets stick with this cunning refinement of Pilot Officer Davey. As Chet says a frustrating itch that won't go away. It won't go away Chet because your spidery senses are telling you - Its all true

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkHyRTlXwkY

Peter was well aware of patent protocol this was far from his first patent here's the artwork from one of his patents issued in 1950 for instance. (New Zealand 92428)


To present this new incarnation on national TV was an act of total desperation and he'd be well aware of that! Most of us know I'm sure what the patent system does with things that dare to fly the over unity flag ! over 50,000 are held in arrest in the USA alone as I write. We know that simply because we have stumbled into the Internet age and know to avoid patents like the plague,unless its a golf ball cleaner or some other worthless widget.
There is nothing to patent or patentable here I'm delighted to say although Peter would have been unaware of the connection I see. In a round about way which I go into elsewhere its the inverse of a truly ancient free energy machine called a Trompe.
Lets follow a little way into what Peter has done here accepting that classical theory is going to get fudged and obscured along the way. - through the mirror then-
I listened to Prof Williamson , I might have uttered the same words. for we have both been trained from the same books. The conductivity of the water ? lets have a look at that, all the safety books tell you electric and water is a bad mix -- you die quick . A good conductor then ? lets have a look

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-wat...of-electricity

so pure(ish) water is actually a phenomenally good insulator . If that weren't so the tap water I used in the UK with a couple of spoons or Peter Davey's contraption would simply explode when plugged in. Peter's son (also a Peter) tried to reheat coffie with the 'contraption' well I think you can guess what happened .
you will have read that ion's in the water has much to do with conductivity, use ditch water , surface water anything ionized its pretty clear the thing will 'go bang' If your tap waters full of heavy metal and iron -- 'Bang'
Like wise using materials that will quickly ionize the water between the plates will give you unwanted pops and bangs .
Stainless steel I have tried and having found it works I stuck with it even though it isn't very nice to work with. copper ? I don't know haven't tried it, Peter did it seems.
I first tested Prof Williamson's theory by changing my towns tap water for deionized battery water - The water still boiled .
I distilled the deionized water and tried again
The water still boiled .
I have to say It didn't boil as fast so I was forced to accept there was at least some I^2R heating in the original work. This time however when boiling the current draw was in the order of milli amps.
So lets move the electrical theory along the runway until we run out of tarmac.
Assuming the water to be pretty pure what you actually have is a capacitor and if pure water is such a very good insulator (Di-electric) then you have a very good capacitor.
what then if you put a very good capacitor across the grid ? A circuit that consists of basically a capacitor with a tiny resistance. here's where the electrical theory I was taught parrot fashion and have quoted a thousand times starts to let me down. I've always suspected its flawed even when it was taught still the devils in the detail I guess. Its this -

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/t...apacitor.5944/

a capacitor (or an inductor for that matter) causes a 90 deg phase shift . Now I could spout exactly what those guys are - I've been trained to, but there's gaps in in, and I'm just going to keep this very simple but theres one here.
Power in an AC circuit = VI cos θ or I^2R Watts . As you have just read a capacitor (like our very good water capacitor) causes a 90 Deg phase shift . power = VI cos θ and the cos of 90 deg ?? for those dredging that back from the old school bench = zero ,nothing,zilch . No power times as much time as you want still equals - no energy .
The next question how to make our water capacitor bigger and better ? here's the basic formula
Capacitance = Eo x Er x A x (N-1) /D

for those not very happy with basic capacitor theory might I respectfully suggest a quick revision here especially as we have to twist it a bit.

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws...tor/cap_1.html

The bigger the area of the plates , The more plates there are ,The closer they are together , and the higher the DI-electric permittivity well folks the bigger the capacitor is. Its as simple as !
Er is the relative permittivity and what have we between our plates ?
Its easy enough to say water isn't it ? but thats not true when the waters boiling is it ? I don't know I see bubbles, whats inside the bubbles ? is that a vacuum in there ? here I'm sure we cross over to this little gem as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pSJ1GcXCK8

bubble ,water hammer ,vacuum a rose by any other name ?
whatever it is it seems to have a very high Er value because current draw drops right off. And thats what makes Peters contraption tick from an electricians stand point . a chemist might have a different slant and an atomic physics guru yet another. Make it do its thing and ask the question of other trades I guess.
As a point of interest in days of yore little variable capacitors were called trimmers and one breed of them were called bee hive trimmers they looked like this

small but perfectly formed don't you think ? - the top part screwed into the bottom part and resulted in more capacitance
does it remind you of anything ?
This perhaps ?




Peter Davey's 602 spitfire fighter squadron on the SE coast 1943

tally-ho free energy at 12 O'clock high ? - kind regards Duncan

[RAMSET]

You had me at "Sonic"

Duncan

Frequency sweepers/drivers and data loggers have gotten soo cheap
it;ll be fun just to play there ...

I wish to chase the Witts claim too [in addition to the Davey Bells.

thanks for all the info and inspiration ,we've heard all the arguments against,

one springs to mind about input dropping when theres less water and more steam [contact/conductivity ]

gonna need some good measurement Gizmos too [Temp data logging] ,would be hard to spend a hundred dollars for all the above today...

I luv Caloric testing,
real busy times for me this next week [weather is breaking a BIT..

Thanks again for the reboot here,

Chet

[Duncan]

like you Chet an itch that won't go away ! I don't think you need get that complex , Heat and particularly heating water is a standard in itself , here's an example . bend it shape it do what you will with it, for instance half the time double the KWs -

The following formula is used to calculate the power of heating element needed to heat a specific volume of water by a given temperature rise in 1 hour.
volume in litres x 4 x temperature rise in degrees centigrade / 3412
(4 being a factor and 3412 being a given constant)
for example 100 litres of water, to be heated from 20ºC to 50ºC, giving a temperature rise of 30ºC would give –
100 x 4 x 30 / 3412 = 3.52

I contest the COP > 1 values you will see make the relevance of absolute precision unnecessary anyway.
I confess I'm not really writing for your benefit here Chet but the many other who also read.
energy that goes in is also easy - plenty of mains AC power meters available and if you really want to push the point use DC for its going to be contested (and how).
I think you'll find the COP values are simply to overwhelming to even be bothered with minutia.
Then Ramset the question needs to be asked - whats the reason ? why is the subject being studied ?
As far as my inclination goes prove there's a huge repeatable anomaly here and throw it quickly back into the ring ! force the dogma to change !
Thats safe and quicker ! however the engineer always wants to make it better and understand the pattern - I can see that, I feel that way myself, but its dangerous and it takes time. time when your very exposed.
A bit of digging around the life and times of Peter, his son, and their house will show its all gone - obliterated . There is a rumor of 'time shifting' - I don't know anything about such possibles but try to keep an open mind.
It would be nice to present a mathematical proof paper wouldn't it ? It sounds like what you'd like to do.
however in this case I urge the halfway step with evidence - show it to be COP>1 (by a country mile)
and only than start work on the exact nuts and bolts.
As for getting information out of WITTS for public distribution free of charge -- good luck with that !
I would also suggest a phone call to George Wiseman. He noted this over-unity heating effect in his plate systems . he didn't make the connection to the state of vacuum however.
He quickly will when you speak to him. I think he would be friend rather than foe although I did squabble with him once a few years ago over a soldering iron at the Coeur d'Alene resort - I dare say thats long forgotten, (even though he got his poxy wheel going first)
delighted I've invigorated the topic for you Ramset - I'm still on it myself but my resources don't match yours and there are health issues right now.
still I'd like to show Peters contraption working -- and I'm sure I will, when and if I do I'll bring it back onto your thread.
In the mean time there's more people probing and thinking about this prospect now for whatever reason - and thats why I posted. I just hope they have the spunk to come back on thread with their findings.
I've broadcast all I can for now - and so its tinkering time.
Kindest regards Duncan

[Duncan]

Thanks Duncan.We can mark this device as solved. Now only missing is the prototype.The pressure or some sound wave can definitely allow to boil water faster and with less energy taken because the main problem with water boiling is to break Van der Waals forces.

Do you think the base of lamp could contain some elements ? I wonder about mixing crude DC (a capacitor to limit current and diode bridge) with AC to produce some level of HHO first - it may speed up process. Is this doable ?

Van der Waals forces. !! Thank you Boguslaw I'm a more complete person now!

[RAMSET]

My Mascot and another inspiration

The Sonic weapon that nature developed to Knock Photons out of orbit and cause a 9800C temp burst and a biological sonoluminescent event in water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc

maybe turn your lights out during experiments [a check list item for the bench tests]

Chet

PS
one of My/our Mentors is helping with a long standing desire to get a sono bubble running in the flask [a learning/teaching tool
PPS
Duncan
What did you learn about the Van der Waals forces ?
can we apply here ?

[Duncan]

Boguslaw your almost sure to be right - The object to be vibrate and move molecules using little or no energy . This enlightening post is from a fellow member who I'm pretty sure you'll recognize but I hesitate to name without his permission .

He is considering the heterodyne of two frequencies in water. (Fourier) F1,F2, (F1 - F2) (F1 + F2)

Without filtering out we will get many orders of exact frequencies with a finite space between them. If we were to start with only 3X difference between these two frequencies we would get a different result.

Example:-

100mhz and 300mhz

200 400
200 600
400 800
400 1200

100mhz and 600mhz


500 700
200 1200
1000 1400
400 2400
2000 2800

Now you can see the difference with a 6X spacing rather than a 3X spacing. Each new frequency will inter react in a heterodyning mode as well and you need to run this through a computer program to see the full frequency spectrum.

As you see each progressive frequency is free from collision and so there is no energy waste whilst the molecules are forced to vibrate right though the spectrum .The purity of the sine wave obviously becomes important and is the only source of system collapse. considering a 60 hz mains perhaps a base of 10hz or 360 hz might be considered - if you wish to explore this.
kindest regards Duncan

[Duncan]

The Sonic weapon that nature developed to Knock Photons out of orbit and cause a 9800C temp burst and a biological sonoluminescent event in water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc

maybe turn your lights out during experiments [a check list item for the bench tests]

Chet

PS
one of My/our Mentors is helping with a long standing desire to get a sono bubble running in the flask [a learning/teaching tool
PPS
Duncan
What did you learn about the Van der Waals forces ?
can we apply here ?

Interesting Ramset - I tracked your clip down it is from here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji0GAt-q2EM
As I wrote earlier probably related to and inverse to the Trompe (the commentator in the background bless him makes the reverse observation at 2min 30 odd) a cop > 5 seems to be claimed for this contraption. Peter Davey machine seems like it might have legs!
of course we want it cheap as chips (a couple of bits of pressed steel ) and domestic . Kindest regards Duncan

[wrtner]

Boguslaw your almost sure to be right - The object to be vibrate and move molecules using little or no energy . This enlightening post is from a fellow member who I'm pretty sure you'll recognize but I hesitate to name without his permission .

He is considering the heterodyne of two frequencies in water. (Fourier) F1,F2, (F1 - F2) (F1 + F2)

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Without filtering out we will get many orders of exact frequencies with a finite space between them. If we were to start with only 3X difference between these two frequencies we would get a different result.

Example:-

100mhz and 300mhz ...

There is a considerable danger of confusion when mixing the ideas of different people who may have completely different technologies.

The above figures are megahertz. Any heterodyned effect will be at a high frequency. Davies worked in the hertz range.

But here's a fact to confound everyone - Remember that Keely used 42.8khz.