Peter Daysh Davey Water Heater Query

[PhysicsProf]

Haha Great! Playing with heat and power,



The inner Bell is filled with water too? I assume it from your post.

I think it really boiled, and yess you lost heat as quick as well.

The boiling occurs probably at the closest distance, do you have even spacing? Lets say a cm ring boiles .. you have the bubbles, but all the other water is still much cooler. So try finding your boiling point and even out your spacing as much as you can.
Second
The metal acts as a rapid cooler, to the outside air, a large area with little water. As you only heat very locally the water between the two at the closest point. The water in the inside is slowing the heating down because its get heated after the other water has heated the inner bell, and the inner bell gives it to the inside water only after longer boiling and it reaching 99 degrees, it will act neutral. Before that, it will also cool you down rapidly after you turn the power off. The volume off the inner bell, is quite a lot in comparisment with the water between the two.

C'man

Edit: Of to sleep now, be safe!

Yes, the inner bell is full of water also. The spacing around the sides is quite uniform, about 11 mm, supported on three sides. There is NO SUPPORT under the inner bell, and the separation between the bell bottoms is about 20 mm.

I got several nylon bolts and nuts and spacers, and will see if I can improve the method of holding the inner bell in time.

HOW TO MEASURE THE INPUT POWER?
So I plugged in my "kill-a-watt" meter, but I it seems it only goes down to 0.01 KW-hrs, that is, 10 watt-hours. I need better accuracy than that for this device, something like a watt-minute would be great. I don't trust multiplying V*I, because I is going to jump all over the place with bubbles and boiling. That is, the resistance of the device must be considered (IMO) variable.


Or, I could make it heat a much larger quantity of water, and that way get onto the "kill-a-watt" meter with enough significant precision. That's the best I can think of right now, short of integrating the power measured by a DSO...

Or, perhaps I could buy another kind of watt-hour meter --if it has better precision.

Ideas?

[evolvingape]

Off topic... or is it ?

Hi everyone,

Here is something interesting:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ElectrolyseAC.pdf

Quote:

"Choice of frequency may be important. Puharich , US Patent 4,394,230 (1983) used a rectified AM signal, and found resonances in pure water at 3,980 Hz, and octaves 7,960, 15,920, 31840, and 63,690 Hz. It is notable that running all those octave overtones gives a lazy (triangular half cycle) saw tooth wave. It has been conjectured that is why Stanley Meyer operated at around 16,000 Hz. Frequencies between 10 kHz and 200 kHz work well. However, if it is desired to carry a significant current through the electrolyte capacitively then a much higher frequency is required."

I have been watching quietly, and do appreciate the information, videos and progression through actual experimentation that the threads contributors are providing, so keep up the good work all. I am working on something related to this thread, but not a sonic boiler, the information posted about it so far is vague, inconsistent, and not suitable for accurate replication of the claimed effect. It does however provide food for thought for independant investigation along the threads topic theme.

One thing I will say is that I feel it is important to try and standardise our testing procedures as much as we can. Water quality is particularly important as using the water from the tap means you have just about every poison, chemical and heavy metal the government can get away with putting in it, suspended in solution. This completely invalidates any conclusions you may draw about effects you think you are seeing. It would be prudent to organise a standardised, practical method for purifying water for use in experiments. Double steam distillation and collecting the condensate from a gas fired hob and stainless pan would be a good place to start.

Rob

[Cherryman]

@Boguslaw

I finished the test.

Setup:

First time:
-Start water: Fresh tapwater 1.5 liter around 17 C
-Time to Boil : 3:30
- peak Watt around 2900

Second time after cooling down
- Start water from yesterday, undisturbed at 18 c
- Time to boil : 4:30 (Depending on what you call boiling) see the vid.
- peak Watt around 2100

Some very clearly visible differences as well.
At the start you clearly see the water is now depleted of excessive oxygen ( I think) and is behaving much different.
Also the Amp draw does not reach as high as the first time, but almost a minute longer to get boiling.

Unfortunately I could not fix the temp-meter in a stationary place, that would have been better. But it is obvious the boiling took longer.

Video with simultaneous picture, speeded up 3 times:

TwiceSameWaterSx3.mp4 - YouTube

[Cherryman]

Yes, the inner bell is full of water also. The spacing around the sides is quite uniform, about 11 mm, supported on three sides. There is NO SUPPORT under the inner bell, and the separation between the bell bottoms is about 20 mm.

I got several nylon bolts and nuts and spacers, and will see if I can improve the method of holding the inner bell in time.

HOW TO MEASURE THE INPUT POWER?
So I plugged in my "kill-a-watt" meter, but I it seems it only goes down to 0.01 KW-hrs, that is, 10 watt-hours. I need better accuracy than that for this device, something like a watt-minute would be great. I don't trust multiplying V*I, because I is going to jump all over the place with bubbles and boiling. That is, the resistance of the device must be considered (IMO) variable.


Or, I could make it heat a much larger quantity of water, and that way get onto the "kill-a-watt" meter with enough significant precision. That's the best I can think of right now, short of integrating the power measured by a DSO...

Or, perhaps I could buy another kind of watt-hour meter --if it has better precision.

Ideas?

My bottom spacing is almost the same as the side spacing. My cups are perfect cylindrical shapes, so distance is about the same everywhere.
Thinking about the nylon, it is a very solid material, my rubber is hard but not solid, I think it allows for some differences in vibrancy (if occurring) between the two parts.
As you are using 110 volts, the spacing could be half?

As for the measurements, bigger is better indeed. With those small body's of water and time, we will not get an accurate reading. So Yes, large is the way to go! Although your meter as one more digit as mine, you might get better readings with smaller body's.

When I did the bath tube test, 125 liters, My goal was an hour, but to get better readings, I kept my eye on the Wh meter after the hour had past, as soon as I did see a digit jumping up, I killed the power. To get the most accurate reading.

Peace, C'man

[Cherryman]

Hi everyone,

One thing I will say is that I feel it is important to try and standardise our testing procedures as much as we can. Water quality is particularly important as using the water from the tap means you have just about every poison, chemical and heavy metal the government can get away with putting in it, suspended in solution. This completely invalidates any conclusions you may draw about effects you think you are seeing. It would be prudent to organise a standardised, practical method for purifying water for use in experiments. Double steam distillation and collecting the condensate from a gas fired hob and stainless pan would be a good place to start.

Rob

Hi Rob,

I agree, but double steam distillation for a bath tube full of water is a bit above my resources.

I might buy a 10 liter distilled water , and give it a go in comparison with the tap water.

And of-course I'm curious about your project too.

[wrtner]

Good discussion! I've been thinking about a variable-frequency inverter also -

- I suppose we all have. Is there any way to take an off-the-shelf inverter and modify it for variable freq?

This may be what you are after. Download the attachment
on Post 198: It is called "INVERTER HAKING FOR VARIABLE FREQUENCY" (sic)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-verter-7.html

Paul-R

[Duncan]

some ideas to consider.....

Hi all you perhaps remember I did something similar to this with a couple of spoons (seems long ago now) still here's the post on this thread http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post163573 (wow post 619 seems long ago) anyway here's a few thoughts that crossed my mind at the time It may promote a bit more experiment. First I assumed those spoons (cones rings whatever) to be perhaps a capacitor with a dielectric of water.
Having said that there is of course a whole area (excuse the pun) of capacitance and waveforms and energy exchange that is suppressed hidden untaught and by enlarge unknown. As far as the capacitance effect comes into play consider this Physics of Free Energy Device, Revised - YouTube Also part of this untaught theory is a hidden condition of resonance the one that is taught and its effects are discussed as a safety check by the prof In that Instance a Faraday cage was suggested as a test against spurious emissions please be aware that a Faraday cage contrary to all present teaching and theory has absolutely no effect on the linear wave what so ever! As discussed and demonstrated here 20110324185908 (3).mpg - YouTube
I hate to contradict the good Prof but this second resonant point which has been actively hidden and suppressed for years has an entirely different set of mathematics. To put it bluntly since the Time of Tesla and the Intervention of JP Morgan even the language to be able to discuss the theory has been eradicated.
It is here being discussed and demonstrated by EPD
Part 1 of 6: Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson - YouTube
Part 2 of 6: Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal Wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson - YouTube
Part 3 of 6: Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal Wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson - YouTube
Part 4 of 6: Eric Dollard & Chris Carson Tesla Longitudinal Wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio - YouTube
Part 5 of 6: Eric Dollard & Chris Carson Tesla Longitudinal Wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio - YouTube
Part 6 of 6: Eric Dollard & Chris Carson Tesla Longitudinal Wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio - YouTube
I Hate to labour the point but we are using what is effectively an oddly shaped (tuned?)capacitor with a variable moving dielectric and now are aware that variable frequency plays a huge part.
In the operation .. here for your interest are the rest of the Hamilton lecture video's
20110324185908 (1).mpg - YouTube
20110324185908 (2).mpg - YouTube
20110324185908 (3).mpg - YouTube
20110324185908 (3).mpg - YouTube
20110324185908 (5).mpg - YouTube
20110324185908 (6).mpg - YouTube
Given that whatever our academic level is 99.99% will have no knowledge of linear resonance what so ever and none of the mathematics as its been suppressed by academia and tptb.... as a suggestion how about tuning the heater to the mains supply with capacitors in much the same way as the roto verter is tuned would probably prove a cheaper method than using a variable Sine wave generator. circa page 9 of this panacia pdf http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf gives the idea (better than sanding if it works) there is a project attatched to the video's to wit.. http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/...pr-21-2011.pdf this tuning method may work with the heater.....
Just food for thought!
There is so little information available on this entirely different sort of electricity which is never taught that we are reduced to blind experimentation
Best wishes Duncan

[RAMSET]

A learning tool ?

Duncan
So we have a learning tool [the boiler ]

I have recently wanted to ask Eric what he thinks about this ?

A Gift IMO!!

THx
Chet

[kenssurplus]

Hi All,

I have several stainless steel "containers" cut and their acoustic resonances mapped, but looking back through the thread, oh back as far as page 37 or so,
there seems to be conflicting info about the frequencies that we are supposed to tune the cap or ring to. One post says 60,120,240,480 hz for USA and another says 300 hz for USA. I am ready to start removing metal to raise the freq. but I would like to know the lastest and most up to date correct info.
Anyone have that?

[evolvingape]

Current Pulse Pressure Waves

Hi everyone,

There is an additional option for experimentation with electrode boilers:

Pulse-width modulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Light dimmers for home use employ a specific type of PWM control. Home-use light dimmers typically include electronic circuitry which suppresses current flow during defined portions of each cycle of the AC line voltage. Adjusting the brightness of light emitted by a light source is then merely a matter of setting at what voltage (or phase) in the AC halfcycle the dimmer begins to provide electrical current to the light source (e.g. by using an electronic switch such as a triac). In this case the PWM duty cycle is the ratio of the conduction time to the duration of the half AC cycle defined by the frequency of the AC line voltage (50 Hz or 60 Hz depending on the country)."

So it should be possible using a simple, commonly available home-use light dimmer switch to pulse current at variable rates through the water. Water being a polar molecule will attempt to align itself to the electromagnetic field supplied by the AC and therefore in theory it should cause either rotation or linear vibration of the molecular bonds at a rate defined by the frequency. The frequency will remain fixed but you will have some control over when current flows within the AC half cycle and at what pressure voltage. The duty cycle of the current pulses will become a user defined variable with a duty cycle <100%.

Please apologise to your wives for me for the now inevitable stripping of light switch dimmers from your households walls

Rob

[Cherryman]

Hi everyone,

There is an additional option for experimentation with electrode boilers:

Pulse-width modulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Light dimmers for home use employ a specific type of PWM control. Home-use light dimmers typically include electronic circuitry which suppresses current flow during defined portions of each cycle of the AC line voltage. Adjusting the brightness of light emitted by a light source is then merely a matter of setting at what voltage (or phase) in the AC halfcycle the dimmer begins to provide electrical current to the light source (e.g. by using an electronic switch such as a triac). In this case the PWM duty cycle is the ratio of the conduction time to the duration of the half AC cycle defined by the frequency of the AC line voltage (50 Hz or 60 Hz depending on the country)."

So it should be possible using a simple, commonly available home-use light dimmer switch to pulse current at variable rates through the water. Water being a polar molecule will attempt to align itself to the electromagnetic field supplied by the AC and therefore in theory it should cause either rotation or linear vibration of the molecular bonds at a rate defined by the frequency. The frequency will remain fixed but you will have some control over when current flows within the AC half cycle and at what pressure voltage. The duty cycle of the current pulses will become a user defined variable with a duty cycle <100%.

Please apologise to your wives for me for the now inevitable stripping of light switch dimmers from your households walls

Rob

Hey Rob, I tried that yesterday! Great minds think alike

Anyway, I suspected it at forehand already, but tried anyway... Got a good 2 seconds .. Before it died.

Most dimmers go to are not capable of handling the wattage. I got a 300 W dimmer, and smoked it in 2 seconds. You need a dimmer capable of dimming your peak wattage. ( my setup <3000 )

So good plan, but find a powerful dimmer.

[wrtner]

Hey Rob, I tried that yesterday! Great minds think alike

Anyway, I suspected it at forehand already, but tried anyway... Got a good 2 seconds .. Before it died.

Most dimmers go to are not capable of handling the wattage. I got a 300 W dimmer, and smoked it in 2 seconds. You need a dimmer capable of dimming your peak wattage. ( my setup <3000 )

So good plan, but find a powerful dimmer.

There are designs designed for stage lighting, regularly 2Kw.
They can be bought from Ebay very cheaply, usually six at
a time. You need to give them a low voltage (probably from
0 - 12v),m and the socket, usually round pin 15amp then goes from
0 - 220volt, with the ability to handle 2Kw. Search for "Strand
dimmer racks".

Paul-R

[PhysicsProf]

OK, I have some first results from my sonic boiler (SBSJ1) set up, as shown in photo previously.

I will show my method for determining Pinput and Poutput and the results, and invite comments on both.

I have a CEN-TECH P3 "Kill-a-watt" meter that displays KW-H to 0.01 accuracy. I ran this P3 meter with a load until it just turned on the display to 0.05 KWH. Next I ran my SBSJ1 device until it reached boiling (which stirs the water), stopped registering the time elapsed with a stop-watch, 62 seconds. I quickly measured Temperatures inside the inner bell and between the inner and outer bells using an infrared temp probe.

I let the sbsj1 cool (to 98F) and ran a second time with the same measurements, and this time the P3 turned to 0.06 KWH, so I stopped the run there to take measurements, 31s. The total elapsed time was 62+31 = 93 s.

By using the P3 JUST AS the reading turns to a higher value, increasing by 0.01KWH, I believe the accuracy is quite good, probably within 10% with this method.

Consider a 100W bulb for 1 hour = 0.1 KWH. Thus, 0.01 KWH in 1/10th hour = 6 minutes = 360 s.
Here in my experiment we have 0.01 KWH in 93 seconds, so the power is more than 100W, and I calculate:
Pin = 360s/93s X 100W = 387W.

Next, to calculate the output power, first I calculate the heat-energy Q calorimetrically, using the Temp-rise in the water.
Q = Cg X m X (Tfinal - Tinitial).

For the first run of 62 s, Tfinal - Tinitial = 147Fahr - 83F = 64F = 36Celsius temp rise.
For the second run of 31 s, Tfinal - Tinitial = 145F - 98F = 47F = 26Celsius temp rise.


Here, Q = 4.18 [J/g-C] X 125g X 36C = 18810 J for the first run, and
Q = 4.18 [J/g-C] X 125g X 26C = 14120 J for the second run.
Total heat measured, Qtotal = 32930 J in 93 s, so
Pout = Q/total-time = 32930J/93s = 354W.

Which is less than Pinput.

Finally, I calculate the efficiency n = Pout/Pin = 354W/387W = 0.91. Not surprising -- NO tuning attempted for this base-line run.


Any comments on the method or the results?
Thanks,
Steve

[Cherryman]

There are designs designed for stage lighting, regularly 2Kw.
They can be bought from Ebay very cheaply, usually six at
a time. You need to give them a low voltage (probably from
0 - 12v),m and the socket, usually round pin 15amp then goes from
0 - 220volt, with the ability to handle 2Kw. Search for "Strand
dimmer racks".

Paul-R

Tnx Paul, I will look around .

How about this?

Vermogensregelaar 110-240 V~, 4000 VA - Vermogensregelaar-bouwpakketten - Conrad Electronic

[Duncan]

Duncan
So we have a learning tool [the boiler ]

I have recently wanted to ask Eric what he thinks about this ?

A Gift IMO!!

THx
Chet

Wow ramset its a learning tool alight! With a very high cop !! … just trying to find not necessarily the theory of operation (I suspect that’s one for the real boffins) but rather a way to tune the system easily and remove the tedium.... still the project marches on with some astounding results. Another Idea I had simmering at the back of my mind ( again excuse the pun) is so.... you will have noticed the current draw and hence power consumption drops right off when the water is boiling(and it usually boils furiously) I was considering connecting one radiator to a simple boiler and then choking the water flow down to a tiny trickle in fact almost a drip (so as not to disturber the boiling condition) perhaps?? with a washing machine pump and speed controlled motor … anybody tried yet? Slovenia certainly planted a few magic beans with this one!