Peter Daysh Davey Water Heater Query

[bhairavah]

HHO or HEAT - make your pick

i had the patience of going through all this thread, thought about it, tried some experiments with beer cans (used them flattened, then as cylinders, etc).

i'll try adding my 2 cents, hope it will prove inspiring.

1. if you're trying to produce hho, you want to knock electrons off and break the molecule; if you're trying to produce heat, you only want to increase the inter (NOT intra) molecular agitation. we're talking about a heater, thus any energy lost in electrolysis is wasted (producing hho and thus not heat).

2. since we're talking about a sonic heater, it is a reasonable assumption that we want to produce sound (a longitudinal wave of a certain frequency, in a given medium). sound is usually produced by means of vibrating a membrane or a string. the sanding of the cylinder is only meant to transform it into a speaker membrane; likewise, the caduceus is a prefect example of a string being vibrated.

imo, the easiest way to produce the required sound, is to simply immerse a speaker in your medium (water). obviously, for greater efficiency one can devise a method of using a flattened beer can as a membrane - just attach a magnet in its center and vibrate it by means of an inductor. just like any ordinary speaker.

3. we also want to CONTAIN that sound, in order to concentrate the maximum ammount of 'agitation' per unit of space. that is what the spheres in witts videos do: create an acoustic 'theatre' that contains the vibrations.

best material to build our containment unit is of course, the most rigid. the worse its sound-conducting qualities, the better. we want it to reflect back the most of the incoming wave. metal is better than plastic and stone is better than metal.

best shape is of course the sphere. however that is very impractical, thus one can settle for a cylinder.

4. tuning. obviously, not all frequencies are the same, and the shape and size of the containing unit greatly affect its properties. we want to 'play' a tune that creates a standing wave inside the containment unit. that can either be calculated, or 'found' experimentally. also, this standing wave would best be a harmonic (octave even?) of one of the own resonant frequencies of liquid water - the intermolecular (hydrogen bonds) are our target here, and NOT the intramolecular ones (h-o). that's easy to calculate. also, ultra and infra sounds should not be excluded from our range of possibilities. the 'speaker' should be capable of producing them, though.


i hope the above will prove inspiring. will post experimental results after attempting the above approach.

[boguslaw]

If you watched what I posted I found that 60% of energy for heating water to the boiling state (as medium of passing heat) from cold or room temperature is taken to break bonds in long water chains (van deer walls forces).
With sound agitation of water like presented in video of Tibetan gong I believe this time is highly shortened and the effect remain active for a few minutes !
Active water ! Now compare that to the normal usage in home heating water system when cold water is returning to the heater. I believe this is the secret : partly in water agitation and partly because we are using sound byproduct of passing current (here I think the best results would be having a dome from ferromagnetic metal for magnetostriction effect like in transformer core).

[wrtner]

2. since we're talking about a sonic heater, it is a reasonable assumption that we want to produce sound...

A reasonable assumption, but wrong. Neither the Serbian device nor the
Peter Daysh Davey device are about sound. Mains AC voltage are attached
to two elements which interact with each other, possibly producing
cavitation type effects. There may be noise but sound plays no part.

See Patrick, approx page 13 (page numbers change as material is added):
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter14.pdf

Paul-R

p.s. check out the rest of the book here:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/

[bhairavah]

A reasonable assumption, but wrong. Neither the Serbian device nor the Peter Daysh Davey device are about sound.

actually, we don't know what they are about, but the fact that they are both tuned acoustically cannot be ignored. also, if i remember correctly, the serbian professor's latest prototype includes an ultrasonic generator, so we might think alike...

There may be noise but sound plays no part.

maybe i used the wrong terminology: when i say sound, i mean 'pressure/scalar/longitudinal waves' (not transverse). they might not be part of the hearing range, but they are still 'sound' (ultrasound, hypersound, etc).

imo, in the davey's heater, the external hemisphere is the 'containing' unit (echo wall) and the inside hemisphere is the 'speaker membrane' (producer of sound waves).

meantime, i've made some progress: as per Water molecule structure, the distance of the hydrogen links in water is 2.037 A. Considering the speed of sound in water to be 1500 m/s, as frequency equals speed divided by wavelength, we obtain a frequency of 7,363 GHz in order to vibrate the intermolecular bonds. obviously we will attempt the generation of a harmonic of the said frequency...

an ultrasonic transducer is obtainable by encasing a piezo-electric crystal between 2 metallic plates. there are already ultrasonic 'humidifiers' on the market, so it's not that hard to turn liquid into vapour. what we want is to make a kind of INEFFICIENT humidifyer, because we don't want to BREAK the bonds completely (and thus turn water into vapour) but only SHAKE them (raise the heat).

research continues

P.S. thanks for the replies btw, i had doubts about the thread being still alive :P

[wrtner]

we obtain a frequency of 7,363 GHz in order to vibrate the intermolecular bonds.

Very interesting points that you make, Bhairavah.

Ultrasonics are sound - fair enough. But the regular two bell system
must be driven by the electric field, albeit the bells are tuned to the
driving frequency acoustically and this makes the difference. I think
the two systems are quite different.

John Worrell Keely did remarkable work in the 19th century with what
he called "water dissociation". His frequency was 42.7122 Khz
(i.e. 42,712.2 Herz). I wonder if these two numbers can be reconciled.

[PhysicsProf]

Note that two who have notably claimed to produce xs heat (relative to the input electrical power) with these "Davey Sonic Boilers" do so by tuning the device to an acoustical frequency at which they see the xs heat. Prof Savic speaks of sanding his cylinder to find the appropriate frequency, and he claims COP of 1.4 in one device and 4.53 in another. See post 1742.

Experimenter Daemonbart speaks of using an electronic device to provide variable frequency input in order to tune the frequency of his device in order to obtain xs heat. In post 1349 he provides data obtained with his Davey device compared to a resistance-heater control, and calculates a COP of 7.

Davey in his patent speaks of "means of holding the circular electrodes so that they vibrate and electrical connections" (page 2, patent 92428) -- again, acoustical vibration is key.

Let's not be lazy, and here I'm speaking to myself also!

[boguslaw]

I'm interested in practical aspects of utilising this device. How do I stop/limit current leakage to ground assuming that container is metallic type also ?
How to provide adequate protection for people using such resistive heater in water connected to home heating pipes ?
Do you know any better maybe electronic way to pass any leakage current to charge for example capacitor and periodically discharge it ? Something which can become better ground then anything and able to lower current leakage to zero. Let's see : we can use this kind of protection Residual-current device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in Europe but still it may be too slow , I consider it as the final protection method.
I have built this device long time ago but these dangers (and a lot ofother problems) prevents me from using it.

P.S. Here is the solution but it's patented. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hr4...8&feature=plcp

[Johnytest]

Hi everyone,

I am a late comer who seeking for heating alternative. Does anyone who experimenting this heater has latest result to share ?

I bought three different beer cans, 12 oz, 16 oz and 24 oz and tried to find resonant frequency of the three, unfortunately I can only get a range of resonant frequency. The 16 oz and 24 oz is pretty much close enough.... They both seems to resonate at 120 hz and 360 hz. The 12 oz also resonate at 120 hz. What I did was cut the top open, then put it against the speaker and play the wave, put a thin washer on the bottom (can bottom up) and watch and listen to the washer vibration. I tried to use oscilloscope and microphone to see the amplitude but didnot see anything.

Greatly appreciate detail replicatible plans

[wrtner]

I bought three different beer cans

I hope the beer was good because I have little confidence that
the build quality of the can will give any dependable results.

You would be better off reverting to the bells (or bowls) used by
Davey which are made out of substantial material:
See "Peter Davey's AC heater" at around page 13:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter14.pdf

[Johnytest]

You would be better off reverting to the bells (or bowls) used by
Davey which are made out of substantial material:
See "Peter Davey's AC heater" at around page 13:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter14.pdf

Yup you are right, The bells with hemisphere shape are already tune to certain frequency already. The problem is that those kind of shape will be pretty hard to find nowadays. I will try to find a pair. But I really want to look into how to tune to certain frequency accurately, this will solve the problem.

[Guruji]

Yup you are right, The bells with hemisphere shape are already tune to certain frequency already. The problem is that those kind of shape will be pretty hard to find nowadays. I will try to find a pair. But I really want to look into how to tune to certain frequency accurately, this will solve the problem.

If you have an android phone there's a free application that you can download. It's a music tuner. This is good to tune exactly to the preferred frequency.

[wrtner]

If you have an android phone there's a free application that you can download. It's a music tuner. This is good to tune exactly to the preferred frequency.

But the preferred frequency is that of your local mains electricity,
either 50hz or an octave (100hz, 200, or 400 hz) or in the USA
and other places, 60hz or an octave (i.e. 120hz, 240, 480).

The best solution is to tune directly off the mains, by putting
a small loudspeaker in series with a fat resistor across the mains.
(Get your sums right or you will blow the speaker). You could
listen out for mains hum coming off a transformer.

Tuning can be done by cutting a groove in the hemispherical
bowl (as church organ pipes are tuned) or by grinding down
the rim until the note is right.

[WaLL]

Sonic device that really works?

Hello to all.
I read with interest everything on this thread.
Does anyone here managed to make at least 1 ml of warm water with this sonic device?

[wrtner]

Hello to all.
I read with interest everything on this thread.
Does anyone here managed to make at least 1 ml of warm water with this sonic device?

.
Yes. Try it and see.
.

[WaLL]

.
Yes. Try it and see.
.

Thanks.
What I ask and what answer you !