capacitors and condensors pumping e field

[madhatter]

Okay, the title is odd but it's the best descriptor I could think of. This post is birthed from the E P Dollard posts and not wanting to muddy the water there figured this would be best.

I've drawn up a schematic as a picture is worth a thoudand words.

Fig 1. Parrallel capacitor plates with a charge are shorted in the convential manner. The "faraday tubes of force" travel perpindicular to the plane and the result is a b field in the wire.

Fig 2. Parrallel capacitor plates with a charge are brought togther at high frequency without a shorting wire and before dielectric breakdown and results in a collapse of the E field.

Fig 3. Multiple parrallel plates with opposite porlarity are given a increase in charge to the positve plates, the replusion moves the opposite charge plates towards each other at high frequency to collapse the E field.

From pouring over research papers on electrostatic generators and HVDC currents along with the papers of JJ Thomson and Steinmetz it made me take a deeper look at condensers. I've been putting the equations together and will share them as soon as I've made some headway on them. What I've not been able to find is any reference to the effects of bringing two parrallel plates together fast enough to collapse the field before breakdown occurs and what happens at the edges of the plates. With the use of a wire to short the charge the field lines transverse the wire and give rise to a magnetic field as expected, if the plates move to slow then the a discharge occurs. If the plates of highly polished flat surfaces are in a pressurized container of highly dielectric gas and the plates are vibrating at a sufciently high enough frequency I think the collopsing field will give rise to a longitudinal wave based on the math I haven't shared yet, I know not fair but it's not finished, I just wanted to share some thoughts and see if anyone has been down this road.

Electrostatic generators if looked at from the perspective of a moving capacitor and takign note of the lines of flux exebit a 'pump' like nature in compressing and releasing the field and at sufiecintly high enough frequency or rotation will induce voltage and current due to the resultant longitudinal flux lines from the crossing of the plates and crossing the E field perpindiculary.

I also stumbled into this Dielectrophoretic pump If the link doesn't work google dielectrophoretic pump, which to me supports the idea of a capacitor E field pump as I'll call it.

The decriptors and dwgs are schematics as there is a fair amount more detail in the shape of the surface area and materials needed.

thoughts?

[madhatter]

just want to add, dig up Tesla's patent on lighting rods. it's good read and covers why current designs are not correct and also I think explains a lot more about electrostatics and field lines on surfaces. the relation to capacitors is in how the current mainstream does not cover what is going on near the edge of capacitor plates, i love the "all heck breaks loose" explanation. Felici's generators are designed with a regard to what Tesla was talking about.

[Dave45]

Awesome work, and I think your headed in the right direction, Don Smith also was working with capacitive plates and collecting the E field.

This is a drawing I made of one of his devices, trying to show he was taping the E field.
Dave
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Smith.pdf

[Dave45]

I dont understand why the capacitor plates need to rotate, I think the E field is moving and the plates could be stationary , also do they need to cut the lines of electric force or can they run parallel to the E field, as in Don's device.
Iv been thinking of the Testatika generator a lot lately, evidently the device is tapping the E field.
I guess alot of experimenting needs to be done, I was thinking if the magnetic field loves iron, is the same for the E field, will it run in aluminum rather than air.
Just thinking out loud, thanks for the thread and idea's
Dave

[Dave45]

Notice in the first image in this vid the coil in the center of the windmill, I'll call it a windmill just for reference but I guess it could be called an electricmill
The coil is creating the E field and the electric mill is collecting it.
Electrostatic Energy, Swiss Methernitha Testatika, Winhurst Electrostatic Generator - YouTube
I guess we'v made a complete circle, we'r back to using the windmill.
Dave

[madhatter]

The E field is perpendicular to the plane and uniform until you get to the boundary. At the boundary you can have a weak field or a very strong field, the shape of the boundary determines this density. The next critical point is that the plates can not be shorted with a lead anywhere near the boundary as uniformity in the boundary condition must be maintained.

rotation of the plates will have no effect unless they move transverse to each other and then it's no longer utilizing the above mentioned effect but rather a sector less electrostatic generator.

This effect relies entirely on the frequency rate of change in the plate gap, no rotation needed. I need to work out the math for the boundary condition and figure out what is taking place when the field collapses and there is an enclosed E-field that should produce a 'shock-wave' at the boundary, will it induce excessive current perpendicular to it? or for giggles a gravitational wave?

I've poured over some of the equations used by others to see if they treat boundary conditions and notice that it is very complex and they don't and will assume a uniform infinite field. If the boundary is considered it is not in this configuration nor the translation needed to deal with a rate of time and distance change.

[madhatter]

I dont understand why the capacitor plates need to rotate, I think the E field is moving and the plates could be stationary , also do they need to cut the lines of electric force or can they run parallel to the E field, as in Don's device.
Iv been thinking of the Testatika generator a lot lately, evidently the device is tapping the E field.
I guess alot of experimenting needs to be done, I was thinking if the magnetic field loves iron, is the same for the E field, will it run in aluminum rather than air.
Just thinking out loud, thanks for the thread and idea's
Dave

They don't, and bear with me as my thoughts are based on the field equations. in a rotation of an electrostatic generator the polarity is alternating based on rotation and the E-field lines are being displaced by theta, this rate of change is what Dollard was talking about in the other thread where the field is suddenly changed from it's previous state. JJ Thomson covers this is great detail as well in his lectures.

The change in the field is always occurring at a given angle and thus is limited in efficiency, not saying that it's bad but is limited due to it's angular movement. the displaced e-field is crossing the longitudinal field at a very limited region, the rest of the field is rising and falling over time giving a sinusoidal wave.

My thought was to transform the movement and arrangement so that the field is perpendicular at a maximum density without the sinusoidal wave.

clear as mud right?

[Dave45]

See these pics I encased a coil in ice and it shows the E field, Iv noticed the E field likes to run at a 60 degree angle around a permanent magnet but in the coil I wound it runs 90 degrees to the coil.
I hope to share what Iv learned and help in any way, If we model the E field as in a galaxy there is a equilateral plane that runs through the middle of the E fields plane, the electrons or whatever leave this plane with opposite spin directions, I wont go into anymore detail right now Iv been ranting all over the forum, people are probably tired of hearing me.

[nueview]

hi dave
don't feel alone i think i am in the same boat but i find your work of great interest and do appreciate it.
i seem to be going the same way it seems maybe not exactly the same thought process but real close.
Martin

[boguslaw]

just want to add, dig up Tesla's patent on lighting rods. it's good read and covers why current designs are not correct and also I think explains a lot more about electrostatics and field lines on surfaces. the relation to capacitors is in how the current mainstream does not cover what is going on near the edge of capacitor plates, i love the "all heck breaks loose" explanation. Felici's generators are designed with a regard to what Tesla was talking about.

I'm simple minded person.To me it's a general flaw of using two plates capacitors instead of other geometry for resonant action. Capacitor as we know it is resonant cavity and that explains all.Of course I may be wrong and probability is high

[Dave45]

I'm simple minded person.To me it's a general flaw of using two plates capacitors instead of other geometry for resonant action. Capacitor as we know it is resonant cavity and that explains all.Of course I may be wrong and probability is high

I agree when electrons are attached to a charged mass they lose their spin velocity and therefore energy, but they are constantly being used so they dont lose that much energy.
But if a mass is charged and then left alone it will lose its charge slowly.

[madhatter]

I'm simple minded person.To me it's a general flaw of using two plates capacitors instead of other geometry for resonant action. Capacitor as we know it is resonant cavity and that explains all.Of course I may be wrong and probability is high

In regards to the lighting rod or 'conductor' Tesla in his patent #1266175 explains why the shape is critical to its function and that the current use of a spike is actually counter productive.

The density of a charge is related to the surface geometry and the smaller the radius of the surface the more the density increases. given that you want to attract lighting the surface with a lower density or greater area or curvature will be better suited to the job.

a corona discharge will occur where there is point or small curvature. The reason tesla coils have spheres or torrids is that the surface area can contain a larger density per sq/cm then any other shape, and thus increase the ability to 'pump' more potential on to the surface.

dielectric induction like electromagnetic induction relies on the shape and curvature of the medium. The study of dielectric induction has been largely ignored or possibly suppressed. The major use of capacitors is to create a sudden change in voltage for use in electromagnetic circuits, this is a massive under utilization of such a fascinating field.

circuit design and layout in dielectric induction is bound to be very foreign compared to electromagnetic circuits. just take a look at nature.

[madhatter]

I agree when electrons are attached to a charged mass they lose their spin velocity and therefore energy, but they are constantly being used so they dont lose that much energy.
But if a mass is charged and then left alone it will lose its charge slowly.

Not surprising as the charge will always try and 'seek' a equal potential. much like water seeking a low energy state as they say. the trick is getting the charge to build without working against it, create a lower potential and the charge will build to re-attain that stasis, get it to move fast enough and it will over fill similar to a 'ram effect'.

current physics doesn't not teach these things, and only recently in one book by a physicists who works in the tech industry wrote a book in QED did he cover some very interesting things and admits that most of what he had learned had to be tossed out to make progress in the industry when dealing with electrostatics at the micro level.

it's sounds kooky but the tubes of force and lines of force are no more odd than mystical string theory. the old texts pre-quantum do a better job of laying down the foundations. It gets tricky beyond that as the majority moved or were forced into to QM.

[Dave45]

Not surprising as the charge will always try and 'seek' a equal potential. much like water seeking a low energy state as they say. the trick is getting the charge to build without working against it, create a lower potential and the charge will build to re-attain that stasis, get it to move fast enough and it will over fill similar to a 'ram effect'.

current physics doesn't not teach these things, and only recently in one book by a physicists who works in the tech industry wrote a book in QED did he cover some very interesting things and admits that most of what he had learned had to be tossed out to make progress in the industry when dealing with electrostatics at the micro level.

it's sounds kooky but the tubes of force and lines of force are no more odd than mystical string theory. the old texts pre-quantum do a better job of laying down the foundations. It gets tricky beyond that as the majority moved or were forced into to QM.

I think that we can over complicate whats really simple, Its a human flaw in all of us, we see something we dont understand therefore it must be complicated and when we do find the answer its simple.
Dave

[nueview]

hi all
i think if i ever find free energy i will just keep it to myself.
mostly because i don't think anyone would understand how i got there.
litteracy is important but it is not very good.
allot of the circuits and descriptions are really bad and when something really good comes out its true what the dumb kid said you try to shove it back in the box where it won't work and then say it's a hoax so why bother with a different explanation.
Martin