Lens's Law what is it ?

[Farmhand]

Hi Farmhand,

You are right in the way you see Lenz's Law. Anytime a current is induced there is an opposition to that current. What Shadesz is mixing up is current and voltage. The voltage can very well lead or lag the current. If we delay the current for a time then we can have voltage without Lenz. As soon as the current starts to flow then we have the beginning of Lenz's Law effect. Keep digging, you have come a long way in your understanding of electronics in the past year or so that I have been following your posts.


Carroll

Hi Carroll, Thanks for the support. I really wish i was mistaken about this, but
I think it is clear cut situation. If I can see it it is probably because of the
things I have learned from others, like you. So there is nothing really for me to
claim except that, I am trying to learn things that make sense. I think Logic is a
powerful tool, and underused.

[Shadesz]

Hi Farmhand,

You are right in the way you see Lenz's Law. Anytime a current is induced there is an opposition to that current. What Shadesz is mixing up is current and voltage. The voltage can very well lead or lag the current. If we delay the current for a time then we can have voltage without Lenz. As soon as the current starts to flow then we have the beginning of Lenz's Law effect. Keep digging, you have come a long way in your understanding of electronics in the past year or so that I have been following your posts.


Carroll

How am I mixing this up?

Induced EMF is voltage correct?
The countering force is caused by current not voltage correct?

Here, from Farmhands first post...

A law of electromagnetism which states that, whenever there is an induced electromotive force (emf) in a conductor, it is always in such a direction that the current it would produce would oppose the change (in magnetic field) which causes the induced emf.

[Shadesz]

I think Logic is a
powerful tool, and underused.

Agreed. Help me understand then. What creates the magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field of the moving magnet?

[Farmhand]

Agreed. Help me understand then. What creates the magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field of the moving magnet?

That would be the current produced by the induced EMF because of the change
in magnetic flux that the current is trying to oppose.

I am more than willing to try to answer any angle to this.

Keep em coming, if I get stumped I get stumped I can deal with that.

I think what Cifta was referring to was that voltage is a measure of the EMF yes.

I think if the EMF is induced by the change (magnet passing) any current
produced by the voltage will oppose the change. Be it that the magnet is
moving toward or away. I think as the magnet passes the EMF will change
direction or (polarity or something) immediately and so will the sign of the current produced, any delay of the current will just
reduce the amount of possible current flow which could be produced by the induced EMF because of
the reduced period of possible current flow. So wasted EMF or unused same thing.

Anything else is not defined under Lens Law and so Lens Law does not apply.

[Shadesz]

That would be the current produced by the induced EMF because of the change
in magnetic flux that the current is trying to oppose.

I am more than willing to try to answer any angle to this.

Keep em coming, if I get stumped I get stumped I can deal with that.

I think what Cifta was referring to was that voltage is a measure of the EMF yes.

I think if the EMF is induced by the change (magnet passing) any current
produced by the voltage will oppose the change. Be it that the magnet is
moving toward or away. I think as the magnet passes the EMF will change
direction or (polarity or something) immediately and so will the current produced, any delay of the current will just
reduce the amount of possible current flow which could be produced by the induced EMF because of
the reduced period of possible current flow. So wasted EMF or unused same thing.

Anything else is not defined under Lens Law and so Lens Law does not apply.

ok I can bite that and chew for a while. Maybe even swallow it.

I wonder though, do you really think it is wasted? Do you think there would be no value of delaying the current in a pickup coil?

[Farmhand]

ok I can bite that and chew for a while. Maybe even swallow it.

I wonder though, do you really think it is wasted? Do you think there would be no value of delaying the current in a pickup inductor?

Well delaying the current reduces the period during which it can flow so if that is
useful for a given situation then yes there would be some value to it.

I haven't even begun to think about any usefulness of the effect as yet.

[quantumuppercut]

Shadesz made a good point. Lenz law speaks of EMF, current, and always oppose. It sounds like a statement of such, " The voltage (EMF) and current are always in phase (always oppose)". If you logic that's Lenz law and anything besides that (out of phase) is not Lenz law, then it's no different than saying "Eggs law: eggs are white" and if there is an orange egg, it's not what the law talking about. When laws have exception, it's no longer a law or a useful one.

We are not opposing Lenz's law on theoretical level. We oppose Lenz because that's what we see in the experiment and mainstream explanation doesn't provide satisfactory answer.

[Shadesz]

Well delaying the current reduces the period during which it can flow so if that is
useful for a given situation then yes there would be some value to it.

I haven't even begun to think about any usefulness of the effect as yet.

Got ya. K I'd say we are on the same page. Thanks for the check questions.



If I can think of a good possible use I'll surely let you know. Obviously the original thought was to remove load from the driver in a rotor generator, but it is appearing like you won't get any real use because power output goes down as well.

[Farmhand]

Shadesz made a good point. Lenz law speaks of EMF, current, and always oppose. It sounds like a statement of such, " The voltage (EMF) and current are always in phase (always oppose)". If you logic that's Lenz law and anything besides that (out of phase) is not Lenz law, then it's no different than saying "Eggs law: eggs are white" and if there is an orange egg, it's not what the law talking about. When laws have exception, it's no longer a law or a useful one.

We are not opposing Lenz's law on theoretical level. We oppose Lenz because that's what we see in the experiment and mainstream explanation doesn't provide satisfactory answer.

Feel free to weigh up the evidence and make you're own decision. I've used as clear as language as I can.

It's a lot different to the egg logic, here is a more applicable egg logic/Law/axiom.

Egg's law: Fertile eggs produced by a given species if they hatch/develop an organism, will always hatch/develop an organism of the same species as the organism which produced the egg.

My Eggs Law is solid. I think it covers all eggs.

[Shadesz]

Feel free to weigh up the evidence and make you're own decision. I've used as clear as language as I can.

It's a lot different to the egg logic, here is a more applicable egg logic/Law/axiom.

Egg's law: Fertile eggs produced by a given species if they hatch/develop an organism, will always hatch/develop an organism of the same species as the organism which produced the egg.

My Eggs Law is solid. I think it covers all eggs.

Ah farmhand not true. You forget about genetic engineering...





Just poking.

[Farmhand]

Ah farmhand not true. You forget about genetic engineering...





Just poking.

They are just variant's, I don't see any genetic engineering that can make a
Chicken egg hatch into an Emu or an Ostrich, or a Human egg into a Chimp or
vice versa. They can only cause a variant. As far as I know. Also the genetic
material added or removed could be seen as the egg being partially produced
by the genetic materials donor.

Species definition

[quantumuppercut]

I think if the EMF is induced by the change (magnet passing) any current
produced by the voltage will oppose the change. Be it that the magnet is
moving toward or away. I think as the magnet passes the EMF will change
direction or (polarity or something) immediately and so will the sign of the current produced, any delay of the current will just
reduce the amount of possible current flow which could be produced by the induced EMF because of
the reduced period of possible current flow. So wasted EMF or unused same thing.

I take it that you don't see anything special or can't explain in speed up under load effect. The logic you provided have contradiction. If current flow is reduced due to delay or if they obey Lenz, then any amount of load will slow down the rotor.

If Lenz read your Egg law and state his: "An induced EMF always have an equal and opposite EMF (BEMF)". Then your egg law and his would live for a long time until someone found some injustice in these laws. lol

[Farmhand]

There has been a few reasons given for the speedup effect which are not to do with "Lens delay" it could be caused by a few different reasons or a combination.

To define the real reason in a given circuit would require close examination of
the circuit and how it was used to produce the effect, examined by someone
with the relevant knowledge and equipment.

It can't be done by video.

Edit: the most obvious cause to the speed up effect to me is the seriously
reduced EMF and therefore seriously reduced opposing current caused by the
reduction in the ability of the coil to to have EMF induced into it to produce
opposing current flow as a result of it.

Basically the processes of Lens Law are reduced because of design and so are
the effects, so less Lens drag because of less induced EMF and less current
produced by it.

Take a motor generator capable of powering 100 watts of light bulbs with
100 watts of output, measure the input. Then modify the generator with high
impedance coils to show speed up then light the light bulbs with 100 watts of
output again and measure the input, that's if you can even get the 100 watts
of output still from the generator after the modification, then measure the
input and calculate the total efficiency.

If the modified generator is more efficient I will eat my words.

It has already been shown that the extra power required to speed the
generator up to the increased speed to see the effect is not regained. And
the ability to power loads is reduced.

So there is no advantage that I can see. All the video's I've seen appear to
show this.

Total efficiency is the goal. If the effect is showing an increase in efficiency I
don't see how anyone could argue it's usefulness.

Can someone tell me exactly what the goal is if it is not an improvement in overall efficiency ?

[Shadesz]

Well I found a use for the phase shift. But instead of levitating a woman or an aluminum ring, let's levitate rotor magnets.

[Farmhand]

Well I found a use for the phase shift. But instead of levitating a woman or an aluminum ring, let's levitate rotor magnets.

OK, you are wise to take his lectures he is a very good lecturer. It's still possible for him to make mistakes though like all of us.

I'll take the lecture too. 52 minutes, boy oh boy I'll try not to fall asleep.