Lens's Law what is it ?

[Farmhand]

Well I found a use for the phase shift. But instead of levitating a woman or an aluminum ring, let's levitate rotor magnets.

That is a very good lecture, I've actually sat through that one already so I
just had a refresher, I can't say i understood it all still, but enough.

For me the clincher was at the 37 minute mark. If you start from a few
seconds before the 37 minute mark in the video, within 15 seconds he reveals
one of the biggest drawbacks for High inductance coils used at high
frequency.

I recommend the whole video though.

Cheers

[Shadesz]

That is a very good lecture, I've actually sat through that one already so I
just had a refresher, I can't say i understood it all still, but enough.

For me the clincher was at the 37 minute mark. If you start from a few
seconds before the 37 minute mark in the video, within 15 seconds he reveals
one of the biggest drawbacks for High inductance coils used at high
frequency.

I recommend the whole video though.

Cheers

Yes, and that is why you design your pickup circuit with that in mind. If you know your operating frequency, you will be able to choose the correct size inductor in order to generate the optimum delay while not extensively limiting the power. I talk about it on the last pages of the presentation I uploaded here.

http://www.energeticforum.com/159751-post2003.html

The quote...

Now to investigate why the phase shift will never be more than 90 degrees. In simple testing we learn that as our frequency increases our phase shift will increase (if it is less than 90 degrees), however, what happens if we increase our frequency past the point where we reach 90 degrees phase shift? Wont the pattern continue and allow us to create a phase shift more than 90 degrees? The answer: no.

The reason being, is that even if the RL circuit has not reached its maximum current point, when voltage is at zero, there will be no more voltage to drive your current up to it’s maximum potential. Hence if your frequency his higher than the time it takes for your inductor to reach maximum current, the voltage will have already dropped and therefore it cannot drive your current up as high as it could be. In essence, at higher frequencies you are limiting current flow due to the voltage changing directions so fast that the inductor doesn’t have enough time to let the full current through. In practical terms, increasing frequency past the 90 degree point will only serve to keep the current below its maximum value instead of increasing the phase shift greater than 90 degrees. It would also makes sense that you could use this principle to create a variable inductor “resistor” based on frequency. The higher the frequency, the greater the inductor resistor value. That’s pretty cool! Ok, anyways, lets look at the example on the scope.



The above happens when our frequency is far past the point that we reach a 90 degree phase shift. The higher we increase the frequency past the 90 degree mark, the less current will be allowed to flow through the inductor. Now we see that due to this relationship, the phase shift in an inductor will never be more than 90 degrees.

[toranarod]

great post
Very in lighting. I have been studying coils and lenz all my life. this is a healthy debate. You have made me think more outside the box than ever before. new Ideas for all of us to explore. Interpretation is the key. Great work.

Any ideas for a testing experiment?

[Farmhand]

great post
Very in lighting. I have been studying coils and lenz all my life. this is a healthy debate. You have made me think more outside the box than ever before. new Ideas for all of us to explore. Interpretation is the key. Great work.

Any ideas for a testing experiment?

Hi Rod, I have an idea, but it might be completely crazy. I haven't done many
experiments with the magnetic mechanical forces myself so I have no real
way of deciding what would be silly and not. I've been thinking of induction
motors.

Anyway here is an idea I was tinkering with for a rotor. I am regretting not
having ever got myself a lathe and milling machine. It would be good to be
able to make exactly what I want and modify it. I suppose the coils opposite
each other should be series connected with one end of each set connected
to the steel of the rotor and the other end to each side of a cap. Or just series
connected and shorted or not, that's for experimenting.


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My questions are-
Would the poles be where I marked "N" and "S" ?

And would the rotor coils set up a rotating magnetic field if the Field coils
were correspondingly series connected and excited with two phases at 90* ?

Main question is the first one. Opinions will do.



P.S. I know it looks a bit like a clutch plate.

[Joit]

I wonder if the Lenzes Observations will hold at Electrostatic Discharge or Sparks, because it seems more like, he describing the Inertia from Conductors in different Material and in Conductors and this would be an other Area.

For me, it all comes down to Magnetism, when i take a Disc Magnet and a Ring Magnet with a Hole in the Middle from the same Size. At the Disc Magnet is no Opposing Force in the Middle, when i check it with an other Magnet, at the Ringmagnet with a Hole in the Middle is one. That is because the flow back from to Forces back to the opposite Pole. At the Disc Magnet is this Way in the Middle locked. And its similar at a Coil.
So, mainly it is the Alignment from the Material at the Enviroment, and you could better Describe it, when you use the Term Magnetic Field and alignment to ...
But looks like, that has a seperate Language established in Physik, to make Things more complicated.
EMF can be described over Magentism too, that it is Alignment from Micromagnets in a small Stream, and as more Force you get from the Source, as more Magnets align in a Conductor and increase the Main Force, what you call Electricity. The Opposing Forces, what appear is the new aligment from other Material around, and, as Magnet do, in opposite Direction, where the Losses are in the Inertia in the Conductors.

Still to consider is the Spin from the different Poles and that the Energy runs first around the Wire and saturate into the Middle, with increasing from the Amount from the applied Energy (let it be assumed in a straight Wire).
But this is a Statement, what i could not really reconstruct now.


Btw Alloy is a very bad Conductor, because it creates a lot of Eddy Current,
In a AC Rotor it is more used to break the Flux between the Iron cage, as to lead it somewhere.
When you apply Energy to a Coil, the Northpole appears at the End of the Coil, where you connect 'Minus' to the Coil

[Farmhand]

OK now after watching the MIT lecture I can see that after the Edit I got a
bit confused and described the induced EMF the wrong way around.

From the 35 minute mark of this video explains it.
Lec 20 | MIT 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002 - YouTube

So to try to correct myself-: I think what the effect actually is, is the
induced EMF is increased because of the increased frequency and the
increased inductance causes more delay in the opposing current (normal delay as seen in any inductance),
The result of this is the coil has an increased Lens effect which fights
hard against the changes in the coil both ways and so reduces current output
significantly and "Lens current". All current reduced. (as shown in the video).

So it seems I was wrong, Lens is increased and it is very much a Lens effect.
However I now think it might be more an Increased Lens Effect. When a load
is added the coil cannot produce any more current to oppose anything
because of its increased Lens impedance just enough to power the load so
the rotor speeds up or the input reduces. Something like that.

Overall I see no chance of OU in this.

Basically I think the so called "delayed lens effect" is achieved by just
increasing the normal delay of self inductance with higher inductance coils,
and reducing the period that any current can flow in the coil by increasing
frequency. I think this might be actually increasing the Lens effect. And also
reducing the possible current flow in the coil altogether.

If there is a delay it is caused by the normal self induction of the higher inductance coils.

The thing is, I think there will only ever be a very small amount of usable
power output because of the huge impedance created in the coil by this
effect (as explained in the video).

And until I see some output from the coil or rotor (mechanical) while the drive
motor is using less than it would without a rotor or nearly the same, bit more
is OK then I don't see any use to the exercise. The drive motor power should
still be included in the overall or total efficiency calculation before any OU
could be claimed.

My intuition tells me there is a very definite limit to this effect and it won't ever show OU.

EDIT: I think this increased impedance can be overcome with resonance.

There has been a few reasons given for the speedup effect which are not to do with "Lens delay" it could be caused by a few different reasons or a combination.

To define the real reason in a given circuit would require close examination of
the circuit and how it was used to produce the effect, examined by someone
with the relevant knowledge and equipment.

It can't be done by video.

Edit: the most obvious cause to the speed up effect to me is the seriously
reduced EMF and therefore seriously reduced opposing current caused by the
reduction in the ability of the coil to to have EMF induced into it to produce
opposing current flow as a result of it.

Basically the processes of Lens Law are reduced because of design and so are
the effects, so less Lens drag because of less induced EMF and less current
produced by it.

Take a motor generator capable of powering 100 watts of light bulbs with
100 watts of output, measure the input. Then modify the generator with high
impedance coils to show speed up then light the light bulbs with 100 watts of
output again and measure the input, that's if you can even get the 100 watts
of output still from the generator after the modification, then measure the
input and calculate the total efficiency.

If the modified generator is more efficient I will eat my words.

It has already been shown that the extra power required to speed the
generator up to the increased speed to see the effect is not regained. And
the ability to power loads is reduced.

So there is no advantage that I can see. All the video's I've seen appear to
show this.

Total efficiency is the goal. If the effect is showing an increase in efficiency I
don't see how anyone could argue it's usefulness.

Can someone tell me exactly what the goal is if it is not an improvement in overall efficiency ?

Cheers

[toranarod]

OK now after watching the MIT lecture I can see that after the Edit I got a
bit confused and described the induced EMF the wrong way around.

From the 35 minute mark of this video explains it.
Lec 20 | MIT 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002 - YouTube

So to try to correct myself-: I think what the effect actually is, is the
induced EMF is increased because of the increased frequency and the
increased inductance causes more delay in the opposing current (normal delay as seen in any inductance),
The result of this is the coil has an increased Lens effect which fights
hard against the changes in the coil both ways and so reduces current output
significantly and "Lens current". All current reduced. (as shown in the video).

So it seems I was wrong, Lens is increased and it is very much a Lens effect.
However I now think it might be more an Increased Lens Effect. When a load
is added the coil cannot produce any more current to oppose anything
because of its increased Lens impedance just enough to power the load so
the rotor speeds up or the input reduces. Something like that.

Overall I see no chance of OU in this.

Basically I think the so called "delayed lens effect" is achieved by just
increasing the normal delay of self inductance with higher inductance coils,
and reducing the period that any current can flow in the coil by increasing
frequency. I think this might be actually increasing the Lens effect. And also
reducing the possible current flow in the coil altogether.

If there is a delay it is caused by the normal self induction of the higher inductance coils.

The thing is, I think there will only ever be a very small amount of usable
power output because of the huge impedance created in the coil by this
effect (as explained in the video).

And until I see some output from the coil or rotor (mechanical) while the drive
motor is using less than it would without a rotor or nearly the same, bit more
is OK then I don't see any use to the exercise. The drive motor power should
still be included in the overall or total efficiency calculation before any OU
could be claimed.

My intuition tells me there is a very definite limit to this effect and it won't ever show OU.

EDIT: I think this increased impedance can be overcome with resonance.




Cheers

Very good observation.
The way I see it is as I said before is it’s about interpretation of the facts presented. I see from your explanation you make a good argument for the way you see it.
This means you have a very valid point of view and its not to be ignored.

I have tried many experiments with many different rotors and magnets coils and so on.
I see both points of view. What the theorist say what the text books say and then what my generators on my bench is saying.

I have so many times formulated an opinion based on my interpretation of the facts.
Then I build the experiment and it is all so not what my imagination had created.

Over the years you have your understanding molded by bench experiments and text book theory. My latest tests say one thing? Eliminate Lenz drag and the motors efficiency will push it to run its self. OU.

I found the Phase delay combined with the frequency of the rotor speed has a big impact on drag and motor output. If you have constructed the correct coil, core and magnet ratio, inductance and resistance ratio are correct. It is very possible to see a very hi output and no drag for all that energy.

I am going to build that experiment the lecture at MIT did with the ring and coil at 60 HZ.
This has something to do with the effect we are all seeing.
Romero is obsessed with this work. He is spending a lot of time and money working on this research. If his last experiment was a hoax why would he still be wasting time and money on this? So are many others. I want to know exactly what the phenomenon is so it can be created in any motor generator as required.
This is my work at this present time.
cheers

[Farmhand]

G'day Rod, Yes I do agree with you, there is reason to experiment in this area for sure,
It is very interesting and I don't mind to admit if I have misunderstood something.
I just want to understand these things my own way and hope to not miss
anything. I also agree it is in the interpretation because the delay caused by
normal inductance is referred to by the lecturer as being Lens law saying wait
up I'm not ready. So normal delay from inductance could be considered Lens delay.

I'm getting so many really complicated idea's it's crazy, very confusing.

The levitation in the video is caused by eddy currents isn't it ? In the closed ring (shorted)
the ring with the slot won't do it.

Here's an idea, a Tesla converter/motor the field coils are say 1:4 transformers on a ring
a rotating magnetic field is setup and the motor is driven and the primary field
collapse spikes from driving the motor are transformed through the second
winding for use as well as the regular transformer output to a degree.

Whattaya reckon.

[Farmhand]

Oh and I think the way my Tesla coil uses less power when load is applied to the
receiver output has something to do with phase shifting. I can also adjust it so
that it uses less with no load and more with load. So an opposite effect. I can't
say for sure though if it is phase or something else.

This is interesting and relevant because my coils are 8.6 mH and I am using them
at over 450 Khz. I wonder how much max current the calculations say is possible with that, or the impedance.

P.S. The MIT "displacement current" video was equally as interesting but maybe more confusing.

Cheers

[toranarod]

G'day Rod, Yes I do agree with you, there is reason to experiment in this area for sure,
It is very interesting and I don't mind to admit if I have misunderstood something.
I just want to understand these things my own way and hope to not miss
anything. I also agree it is in the interpretation because the delay caused by
normal inductance is referred to by the lecturer as being Lens law saying wait
up I'm not ready. So normal delay from inductance could be considered Lens delay.

I'm getting so many really complicated idea's it's crazy, very confusing.

The levitation in the video is caused by eddy currents isn't it ? In the closed ring (shorted)
the ring with the slot won't do it.

Here's an idea, a Tesla converter/motor the field coils are say 1:4 transformers on a ring
a rotating magnetic field is setup and the motor is driven and the primary field
collapse spikes from driving the motor are transformed through the second
winding for use as well as the regular transformer output to a degree.

Whattaya reckon.

Its all in the minds eye until we establish some working model we can control with so degree of understanding.
The one thing that really impressed me about the levitation of the ring was the ring with the slot cut in it would not levitate
remember all the washers on Romero's motor? Is that related or just our imagination looking for answers.

[Farmhand]

When I said ring I meant a laminated transformer ring, like the exhibit "C" in this picture.



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And explained like this. From Page 479 Chaprer XLII of this Book.

Another prominent exhibit was a model illustrated at c which is a twophase
motor, as well as an induction motor and transformer. It
consists of a large outer ring of laminated iron wound with
two superimposed, separated windings which can be connected
in a variety of ways. This is one of the first models used by
Mr. Tesla as an induction motor and rotating transformer. The
armature was either a steel or wrought iron disc with a closed
coil. When the motor was operated from a two phase generator
the windings were connected in two groups, as usual. When
used as an induction motor, the current induced in one of the
windings of the ring was passed through the other winding on
the ring and so the motor operated with only two wires. When
used as a transformer the outer winding served, for instance, as
a secondary and the inner as a primary.

Sounds like a good experimental device to me.

[toranarod]

G'day Rod, Yes I do agree with you, there is reason to experiment in this area for sure,
It is very interesting and I don't mind to admit if I have misunderstood something.
I just want to understand these things my own way and hope to not miss
anything. I also agree it is in the interpretation because the delay caused by
normal inductance is referred to by the lecturer as being Lens law saying wait
up I'm not ready. So normal delay from inductance could be considered Lens delay.

I'm getting so many really complicated idea's it's crazy, very confusing.

The levitation in the video is caused by eddy currents isn't it ? In the closed ring (shorted)
the ring with the slot won't do it.



Here's an idea, a Tesla converter/motor the field coils are say 1:4 transformers on a ring
a rotating magnetic field is setup and the motor is driven and the primary field
collapse spikes from driving the motor are transformed through the second
winding for use as well as the regular transformer output to a degree.

Whattaya reckon.

As you said before. I wish I had of invested money in a lathe and milling machine. I really need to make these machines quickly and be able to make mods as we go.

I feel I was right about the ratio of inductance to resistance based on what the MIT lecture put forward. The reason he put forward was different slightly to my reason for it. but the out come is the same. Once again my understanding is being tuned. we push on.

[dragon]

A nice demonstration tool for Lenz law Lenz Law & Induction Demo . Easily replicated.

[toranarod]

A nice demonstration tool for Lenz law Lenz Law & Induction Demo . Easily replicated.

Hello to all,Farmhand,Shadesz
I replicated the the levitating ring in the Video.
I just got back from few days away and when straight to the work shop
I wound a 4mH coil with 1.09 Ohm's of resistance managed a 49 degree Phase
shift. The aluminum ring floated above the coil.
Power supply was 50 Hz Vac at 20 volts PPK
I will do a photo next post.
It was fun.

[Shadesz]

Hello to all,Farmhand,Shadesz
I replicated the the levitating ring in the Video.
I just got back from few days away and when straight to the work shop
I wound a 4mH coil with 1.09 Ohm's of resistance managed a 49 degree Phase
shift. The aluminum ring floated above the coil.
Power supply was 50 Hz Vac at 20 volts PPK
I will do a photo next post.
It was fun.

Nicely done rod. As I understand it, the levitating is due to the counter current in the ring itself. Which brings up something interesting....

Didn't you say you saw better results with your hollow core magnets? I wonder if they conduct electricity (eddy currets) themselves? If they do, the hollow core could make them act like the aluminum ring.