Terms and Definitions

[nueview]

hi farmhand
i have been watching your motor project it should be pretty interesting.

i used two different rated neon bulbs i hunted down a Mousier the one on the cap is rated at 95V and the one for the SCR gate is a 65V other than that it is all the same.

i thought about making it bigger and adding some switch in caps but that would be later down the road. i am getting some pulses but when i read across the battery terminals with my meter it is like the 65V is not present maybe because it is over the whole battery and i am just rising and falling on the wave.

if the SCR is on all the time the gate neon would not be triggering as all would be pretty much the same voltage so would think it would not light at all.

i am pretty sure this is not normal desulfating as well it seems to use little power and is making me use my brain which needs some exercize. i built it because of some things i tried before with batteries and how well they worked i would reccomend building this one for the learning if nothing else.

it is not a tune charger or a bedini charger but it is interesting if i add another cap i will make it so they switch in and out so i can choose what size to work with and how fast they charge, not sure charging is the right term for what this does.
thanks for the interest.
Martin

[Farmhand]

if the SCR is on all the time the gate neon would not be triggering as all would be pretty much the same voltage so would think it would not light at all.

Yes you're right, if the neon is on, then the SCR must be either triggering or not
triggering at all, if it flicked on once 60 times a second at 60 Hz it might look like
it's on all the time.

Maybe disconnect the charge battery while it is running and see if the neon changes brightness.

Cheers

[mbrownn]

i hope this works to this link it is on this sight but getting pretty far back.

http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...se-charger.jpg

this charger holds the whole battery positive and smacks it with a current so i do not think there is any real spiking but will put it on a scope today and try to get a picture.
when you first start useing it the battery temperature drops about 2 degrees F this happened with all the batteries i put it on. i never see the 65 volts which are supposed to be on the battery positive but instead i just see were the battery is at as far as volts go.
i hope this helps. i will know more when i get out to the shop and see if i still have 12.6 volts on this battery. right now anything is a gain as it was destined for the dump.
i wonder if the crystalizing occurs at a point above the normal charging?
Martin

Hi, This circuit is a brute force pulse charger using high voltage and so high current but limited by the capacity of the cap. The voltage is from the source and not from radiant but if the wires were very long you may see a small radiant spike but I doubt it really. It uses a push pull method of charging with current, as the AC goes positive it pushes current through the battery and as it goes negative it pulls it through. In both cases I would expect the battery to warm and not cool. Its main drawback is its ability to overcharge and boil a battery, gel type batteries will tend to dry out on this charger quite quickly. It should be more efficient than normal charging but I would question 95% efficiency. Radiant is above source voltage and is a transient spike lasing only a fraction of the pulse, typically found in pulsed coils or very long wires.

[nueview]

ok farmhand
when the conditioner is running and disconnected from the battery the neon on the anode gate connection goes out and the neon across the 5yf cap comes on.

MBrown
i agree with you, if it was my circuit i would not have call it a radiant battery charger but rather a battery conditioner.
i was doing something similar with a relay then went to two relays and was always having problems with the pulseing . i would charge a capacitor to say 24 volts then connect the positive to the positive at the cap and then connect the negative the cap would discharge through the battery till the voltage equalized then remove the cap and recharge it over and over.
the problem was that if the negative hit first it took many times to get the battery back in a charging mode.

so when i saw this circuit it seemed to answer my problem so built it to see what goes on i have long thought in my mind that the thought of what goes on in a battery is wrong as tought. as a battery running a circuit has all the electrons and the like it started with but the charge is neutral so were is all the stored charge in the atoms this makes me think it is a form of capacitive storage that gets blead off. this idea has a great amount of merit when it comes to water molecules and other chemical chains functions.

i do not believe this conditioner is very efficient but then efficiency is in what one is looking to perfom right? as i first put this unit to a battery the neon only fires as a slow flicker for quite a while but after this it fires as if it is always onmore like the charge is going in but being caught inside and not coming out but instead being stored someplace in the battery.

the drop in temperature confuses me right now but it is not like it is very great just 2*f so i can let that go for now. my thought is that there is some flow path for the energy form and to ground and as with the voltage rise and fall on the battery that i am not able to detect there can also be some exchange to ground i am not seeing as well.

hope this helps but i don't think it is simple to understand without a very long discussion.
Martin

[nueview]

yeah battery toped out on the charger today with 2hr charge at 10A rating at 12.9 volts ran a motor on it for about .5 minute and read the voltage at 12.5 volts.
i was sure this battery was destined for the recycle bin
it is not total good news but does go with what i am thinking as a whole so it was worth the money and see how many more i can salvage as i got a real nice 8D that sat for an emergency genset for to many months it looks great but won't charge so it will be the next test.
this one is a for sure recomend by me.
Martin

[nueview]

just to let you all know two days for the batteries just sitting and both are reading 12.1 volts and holding.

i was reading through the gravity thread but i am not done yet.

farmhand for me this may be a bit out of place but something has often bothered me about industrial motors and generators usually a generator has a larger rotor than an electric motor about two to one so there is a deffinate loss from the word go.
if the speed of the rotor is frequency dependant and can be generated with circuits why shouldn't the rotor be four times larger than the generator rotor.
maybe i am just being stupid here.
Martin

[Farmhand]

just to let you all know two days for the batteries just sitting and both are reading 12.1 volts and holding.

i was reading through the gravity thread but i am not done yet.

farmhand for me this may be a bit out of place but something has often bothered me about industrial motors and generators usually a generator has a larger rotor than an electric motor about two to one so there is a deffinate loss from the word go.
if the speed of the rotor is frequency dependant and can be generated with circuits why shouldn't the rotor be four times larger than the generator rotor.
maybe i am just being stupid here.
Martin

I've never taken much notice of the rotors. I imagine a motor needs to be
started and stopped where a generator prefers a heavy rotor steady state
speed to overcome sudden loading surges.

Cheers

[nueview]

You raise some valid points if the systems are run as they do now on oil or engines and normal motor use but it may not be the way to build a motor generator was all i was thinking the motor would be part of the generator mass so perhaps some of the properties would have to be rearranged?
martin

[Farmhand]

Oh I'm not sure of the types of generator and motor you mean, I think I see
you're point though the motor rotor and the generator rotor are one rotating
mass.

Maybe we should start calling electric motor and generator combo's self driven
generators because that's what I want to build.
But it should have useful shaft power too, so really a motor generator and the
field coils will have secondaries as well wound on them so what I'm building
should be a Motor/Generator/Transformer.

Cheers

[nueview]

well i am mostly done with the battery conditioner so will be back to working on my motor generator setup.
i am using a HP printer motor rated for 24v at 1.5 amp it has twelve coiled poles wound the same. this gives me four poles for each winding per phase.
the rotor has 8 magnetic poles if i spin the rotor and watch the fields on one phase i get 2 volts and if i series the next two phases i get 4 volts out.
i am planning to split a twelve volt battery pack into a -6v and a +6v so that i can resonate the one phase and see if i can get enough to be at least at the battery pack voltage for some charging to occur .
the circuit driver current cost may be the breaking point for so small a unit but i am going to try to use a class D flip/flop i have to drive the power transistors it draws 8mA.
the motor is rated for 6000 rpm if i get this far then i will try to replace the batteries with some super or ultra caps and run a overcharge dump it should be allot like the lockridge device.
Martin

[mbrownn]

just to let you all know two days for the batteries just sitting and both are reading 12.1 volts and holding.

i was reading through the gravity thread but i am not done yet.

farmhand for me this may be a bit out of place but something has often bothered me about industrial motors and generators usually a generator has a larger rotor than an electric motor about two to one so there is a deffinate loss from the word go.
if the speed of the rotor is frequency dependant and can be generated with circuits why shouldn't the rotor be four times larger than the generator rotor.
maybe i am just being stupid here.
Martin

You are correct, this is an important point and this is for many reasons. A large diameter rotor gives higher surface speed for the same rotor RPM giving a higher generated EMF. A larger diameter allows a larger number of wire turns in the coil generating higher EMF etc etc The disadvantage is more cost.

Today most generators are AC and so cannot be used with pulsed DC and the remaining DC generators are just modern motors so do not work well at generating until you reach high RPMs.

If you look at the original Tesla motors and generators they all had large diameter rotors and this was done for a reason, they work better. Tesla said that the future is high voltage pulsed DC, Why?

With AC all the current is required to oscillate and the speed and power of motors and generators is set by the frequency of current and phase shift of the oscillations. when you recycle AC such as in a tank circuit you can reduce input for the same power osculation but the frequency is too high to use on an AC motor. With DC it is the amount of current flowing in one direction. Tesla found that it was a simple task to pulse a DC motor at 50% duty cycle and maintain the same current flow as normal DC by placing a diode across the motor effectively doubling the output for a given input. This is why we use pulsed DC on golf carts and servo motors today, but there is more. If the current that is generated by the motor in inductive kickback is not shorted back to the motor but is collected in a capacitor it can be used for the next pulse only requiring a small top up from the source. Remember it is ampere turns that cause the magnetic field and the only electrical loss is due to resistance and transformer effects and as long as the current is flowing we have the magnetism. How this is done is the part that is suppressed and is omitted from the patents.

To keep the frequency low and increase the amount of current we can recycle we need high inductance, for an AC motor this would require a huge motor with very many field coils to keep the speed down to something usable but not with a DC motor as you could do it with one coil and one permanent magnet or two coils.

Lockridge did this with a non interconnecting star wound motor/generator but had to add extra inductance to get the frequency down to something he could switch mechanically; hence http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post143009 was needed. We don't have that problem because we can switch electronically but because today's motors are built with small rotors and low inductance coils the switching has to be very fast limiting the ultimate power. To do what Lockridge did is not practical with modern motors with their small rotors as they are built differently and have lower inductance but it can be done with PWM as I am working to show you.

[nueview]

ok here goes some information the capacitor discharge is on every cycle at the positive 65 volt and gets worse as the battery resistance increases.

the car battery went from no CCA to 150 cca (cold crank amps) on the battery tester.
the 8D went from 200 cca up to 575 cca i would not call it charging.
firing with a neon is not the way to go but i did find a cold solder joint so i am thinking it is part of the solution and the neon is part of the problem due to gas discharge rates in the neons

i am on the problem so guess it needs a solution.
Martin

[wayne.ct]

Current as a scalar

I just finished reading this entire thread, all three pages and it was all interesting. Everything relates in some way to what I am working on. I want to comment on something said back in an earlier part of the thread.

It was said that current is a scalar. This is what I would call a simplification. It is only true if you know exactly what the circuit looks like AND you know what you mean my saying it. The truth of the matter is that current is a vector. It has a magnitude and a direction. The direction is in 3-D space and one of the reasons you or I can get away with calling it a scalar is because the current follows "the" wire and we know what the circuit looks like.

If you follow the "wire" in the circuit, it circles around and through the power source and back to the starting point. All the "vectors" add up and cancel one another and so you end up with a sort of "scalar". It is simply NOT a simple scalar.

The second simplification has to do with DC vs. AC. In an AC circuit the electrons move back and forth and end up where they have started from. They NEVER circulate and over time there is NO net current. Another case of simplification where we use the word "current" when in fact there is no net current. You can have a mixed circuit with DC and AC components. If this is the situation, you must say which current you are measuring or talking about. The DC component? The AC component? The combination of both? Or, perhaps, the net current over some period of time?

Some of the entries in this thread were very sloppy in the sense that they were not precise or perhaps not well thought out. I hope this helps but in the end you are left to think your own thoughts and form your own opinions.

The last issue that I would like to raise is in regards to pulses and spikes in current and / or voltage. Any such circuit will radiate some amount of energy in the form of radio waves. Or, in some situations, the circuit will receive energy in the form of radio waves. If you want to understand terms and definitions and measurement, you need to consider this aspect in your complete situation analysis.

I think I have beat my head against this wall enough for one post.

I think you had a good idea for a thread here, Farmhand. I only hope you got the information you needed to proceed with your experiments. I'm still searching for the key to unlock real free energy. Right now I'm trying to learn more about what Tom Bearden is doing.

[Farmhand]

Hi Wayne, valid criticisms I agree. I was mainly trying to make a point of we
need to use common terms to understand each other, or at least confirm what
we are saying things to mean or ask others how they mean it, like to clarify.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding in this area through no real fault but
the use of so far different or differing terms.

The current is a curly one, the displacement current is interesting, and I must
study it more.

Cheers