Buy a Pitchfork

[mbrownn]

This one has unfortunatly countless Heads. With which one would you start first?

Follow the money and who benefits.

Who are the biggest bank owners?
Who is behind the scenes pulling the strings of wall street?
Who is pulling the strings of political puppets?
Who are the biggest corporation owners?
Who are behind the big tax free foundations?
Who was behind the setting up of the education system?
who was behind the setting up of the medical system?
Who owns big oil?

There are many questions but the answer is the same small group of people. There are many snakes heads to be sure but in comparison their number is very small compared to us. Don't take your eye off the ball, they are attempting to co-opt the occupation movement and they will have success. We have to be like sharks teeth, as one falls another is right behind to replace it. Bring peoples attention to the ones behind the curtain pulling the strings.

If we remove their system of financial control, the central banks, we will defeat them but it will be no easy task and a difficult head to cut off but it will bring many of the other heads out of the closet for the people to see.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism, it is how this small group has monopolized and corrupted it that is the problem.

[Joit]

The Circle is actually formed, what is screwed, but when you follow the Money, and find some Banksters what print ie Money in Order from the FED, for what do you want to blame them.

You cant even blame really Corporations for doing her work OR sold her fraudulent Derivates. They can use the Excuse all time, noone was been forced to do so. And its our Business to sell things. Free Economy, yay, Huh?

Or whom do you want to blame from the Ministries, when they screw up the Education.
And IF you want, you need to go to the Court and form a Accusation. Then, with some Luck, you may find a Advocate, what can push something throught, but it may are only some Changes for ethnical Reasons.

Or, even, wanna shut down the Wallstreet, where all the Trades run through at the Moment?
Or restrict further Tradings there?
Force Politicans to End the monetary System to reset? Or to stop any Bankactivities?
And if that, how long would it takes, until they did discuss about the How to, and 'What-can-we-do'.

So, where would anyone start at, but stay realistic, only describing the Problems does not help, because this System is so f*ckd and screwed up.

[Dave45]

The fed is the head
All you have to do is not play their game
pull your money out of their banks
buy physical silver
pay off your loans or give it back
tell them to take their credit score and shuv it
dont deal with them

[Joit]

Dave so pay anything in Silver? Who does take Silver today from the Stores?
Can you do your monthly Payments with it?

And a other Problem will left.
ANY Dollar has Interests on it. New Money is only created by Loans.

So, their created Debts will still stay at any Country at the Moment, when any Country gets any kind of Money.

And it anyhow dont solve the Problems, that all Countrys, her Economy and Politic is allready screwed.

[Shadesz]

After watching The Money Masters a couple of times I am not so sure I agree with blaming banks for our money problems at all, even though the entire movie suggests that we should in 2 different applications.

Here is my take,

The money masters criticizes using minerals like gold and silver as currency because people will work to control the cycle of availability of those minerals which in turn causes a flux of good and bad markets. Yes I said they argue against things like gold and silver. It makes sense. Watch the movie before you oppose the idea. Anyways, times when they reduce the availability of this money are called recessions, times when they increase the availability are growth markets. They do this so they can get control of even more money. This makes sense. If you don't see it yet don't worry I will explain it better later. The point here is that people (skilled investors) control the availability of money. I believe many people do this without realizing it.

Using this 'money availability' argument the movie suggests that a nationally created note (still fiat money) should be produced, used, and controlled by the government. The idea is that the government will produce only enough extra money to make up for population growth (plus a small standard inflation rate). The idea is that this system will maintain a steady availability of money and thus prohibit recession and growth market cycles.

While the idea sounds tempting at first you can quickly see a major flaw. Even though the government can control the amount of money (if they are honest, which is a whole other ball game), they still have no control over the availability of that steady amount of money. Because of this, money masters will still be able to control the market and cause recessions and growth markets.

It will work like this even with a steady and controlled amount of total money.

Regardless of how much money there is, these money masters work to control major percentages of this money. They can do so because we live in a free market system. After obtaining a majority percentage of control over this money, the masters "allow" other people to 'use' this money by investing in companies and the like. These companies then take that money and spend it which puts it into circulation (aka availability). As the market grows, more of this steady amount of money becomes available to the population because the money masters release it in exchange for promissory notes. When the money market is reaching its peak these money masters then cash in on these notes which are now worth much more than they bought them for. This specific timing allows them to gain control of a bigger percentage of money than when they began.

The debt slave companies have to pay them back which in turn gives those companies less money to spend. In this way the money masters start to re-posses the money and tuck it safely away out of the free market. The more they do this the less money these companies have to spend which means less money is available in the market (even though the amount of money hasn't changed).

With less spending money, companies and people cut back. As the population feels this pressure, the market tanks and we enter a depression.

During this time stocks and investment prices go down. Way down. They have to, there is less money available in the market. In the meantime, these money masters have almost their full reserve tucked safely away from notes and risky loans.

When these people decide that investment prices are low enough, they purchase these investments at the reduced prices. Note that this begins to happen in huge volumes and as such, money enters back into the economy. As it does, peoples faith increases and prices go up (including investment prices) this continues until the money masters decide it is time to cash in their notes and force another market crash, aka "investment sale".

This forced cycle takes about 7-11 years to complete.

Now back to my point. This cycle will continue regardless if the US controls the amount of money. This is because the money masters will still be able to control the availability of the money. In fact, if more money is added to the market by governmental notes (regardless if the government printed them or had a national bank do so), it only temporarily delays the recession that the money masters initiated. Then, when they begin to invest again, there will be more money available for them to get control of.

I am being redundant, but I hope that drives the point. The problem isn't who controls the AMOUNT of money, it is who controls the AVAILABILITY of the money. And the only way to control the availability of money in our nation is to do away with investment capitalism and the free market system.

Are you willing to make your children pay cash for a house? Are you willing to force start up companies to start up without loans or stock sales? Do you realize the pace reduction America will have if we force our entrepreneurs and start up companies to rely completely on their wallets and free donations form other people? Are you willing to completely get rid of credit cards and car loans, and drive/buy only what you can pay cash for at the moment?

I think most of America wishes they could do that, but in reality, they are not willing to. As long as we have the values that we do, we will see this cycle repeat itself. There is no changing it by changing who controls the amount of money.

My suggestion is that we learn to accept it and how to live with it. In reality, as long as America isn't willing to give up our lifestyle, we might as well play the game, cause we sure aren't going to change it.

Just my .02

[Shadesz]

By the way...

Now is NOT the time to be buying silver or gold. DON"T do it! You WILL loose your money. Why? Because the value of these metals WILL begin to decrease in the relatively near future.

[Shadesz]

pss...

The ONLY way I see that we can solve this "who controls the money" problem isn't by attacking banks, investors, or the government. The only real way to solve this problem is to outlaw debt. No debt means no control. It's that simple. Will this ever happen?



Debt is what gives people control over money, and other people. If there were no debt there would be no control. In our society, outlawing debt would come with a HUGE price though... our rate of progression and societal evolution would dramatically decrease. Personally I think slowing society down could be a good thing, albeit very painful.

I still don't think it is possible though.

[Farmhand]

Hi Shadez, You seem to be forgetting that our governments borrow huge sums
of money from the central banks which is conjured up from nowhere. Then we all
need to work and pay taxes to the government so they can attempt to pay
money back, mostly they make the interest payments, barely.

So we pay interest on conjured up money. You see this as necessary ?

If the government printed the money, it does not need to paid back and there
is no interest either.

This is the major part of the problem. It seems a bit silly for the government
to need to borrow conjured up money, They can conjure it up themselves.

P.S. The only thing we need to outlaw is charging interest payments, not
debt or borrowing money.


Cheers

[Shadesz]

Hi Shadez, You seem to be forgetting that our governments borrow huge sums
of money from the central banks which is conjured up from nowhere. Then we all
need to work and pay taxes to the government so they can attempt to pay
money back, mostly they make the interest payments, barely.

So we pay interest on conjured up money. You see this as necessary ?

If the government printed the money, it does not need to paid back and there
is no interest either.

This is the major part of the problem. It seems a bit silly for the government
to need to borrow conjured up money, They can conjure it up themselves.

P.S. The only thing we need to outlaw is charging interest payments, not
debt or borrowing money.


Cheers

I'll accept most of that. Allowing the government to print their own fake money, debt free, would help to relieve some of the American peoples tax burden. However I do not believe it will solve the real problem.

Secondly, how do you suggest that a no interest loan market would function? To start the explanation, how do you think such a system would motivate people to "loan" out there money without getting something in return?

[Farmhand]

I'll accept most of that. Allowing the government to print their own fake money, debt free, would help to relieve some of the American peoples tax burden. However I do not believe it will solve the real problem.

Secondly, how do you suggest that a no interest loan market would function? To start the explanation, how do you think such a system would motivate people to "loan" out there money without getting something in return?

Money printed interest free for the people is not fake money.

Money printed to gather interest for the benefit of the central bankers and
artificially inflate markets is fake money.

....

People are loaned money from the government so there is no need for interest.

There are other ways and reasons to lend money too.

Cheers

[mbrownn]

After watching The Money Masters a couple of times I am not so sure I agree with blaming banks for our money problems at all, even though the entire movie suggests that we should in 2 different applications.

Here is my take,

The money masters criticizes using minerals like gold and silver as currency because people will work to control the cycle of availability of those minerals which in turn causes a flux of good and bad markets. Yes I said they argue against things like gold and silver. It makes sense. Watch the movie before you oppose the idea. Anyways, times when they reduce the availability of this money are called recessions, times when they increase the availability are growth markets. They do this so they can get control of even more money. This makes sense. If you don't see it yet don't worry I will explain it better later. The point here is that people (skilled investors) control the availability of money. I believe many people do this without realizing it.

Using this 'money availability' argument the movie suggests that a nationally created note (still fiat money) should be produced, used, and controlled by the government. The idea is that the government will produce only enough extra money to make up for population growth (plus a small standard inflation rate). The idea is that this system will maintain a steady availability of money and thus prohibit recession and growth market cycles.

While the idea sounds tempting at first you can quickly see a major flaw. Even though the government can control the amount of money (if they are honest, which is a whole other ball game), they still have no control over the availability of that steady amount of money. Because of this, money masters will still be able to control the market and cause recessions and growth markets.

It will work like this even with a steady and controlled amount of total money.

Regardless of how much money there is, these money masters work to control major percentages of this money. They can do so because we live in a free market system. After obtaining a majority percentage of control over this money, the masters "allow" other people to 'use' this money by investing in companies and the like. These companies then take that money and spend it which puts it into circulation (aka availability). As the market grows, more of this steady amount of money becomes available to the population because the money masters release it in exchange for promissory notes. When the money market is reaching its peak these money masters then cash in on these notes which are now worth much more than they bought them for. This specific timing allows them to gain control of a bigger percentage of money than when they began.

The debt slave companies have to pay them back which in turn gives those companies less money to spend. In this way the money masters start to re-posses the money and tuck it safely away out of the free market. The more they do this the less money these companies have to spend which means less money is available in the market (even though the amount of money hasn't changed).

With less spending money, companies and people cut back. As the population feels this pressure, the market tanks and we enter a depression.

During this time stocks and investment prices go down. Way down. They have to, there is less money available in the market. In the meantime, these money masters have almost their full reserve tucked safely away from notes and risky loans.

When these people decide that investment prices are low enough, they purchase these investments at the reduced prices. Note that this begins to happen in huge volumes and as such, money enters back into the economy. As it does, peoples faith increases and prices go up (including investment prices) this continues until the money masters decide it is time to cash in their notes and force another market crash, aka "investment sale".

This forced cycle takes about 7-11 years to complete.

Now back to my point. This cycle will continue regardless if the US controls the amount of money. This is because the money masters will still be able to control the availability of the money. In fact, if more money is added to the market by governmental notes (regardless if the government printed them or had a national bank do so), it only temporarily delays the recession that the money masters initiated. Then, when they begin to invest again, there will be more money available for them to get control of.

I am being redundant, but I hope that drives the point. The problem isn't who controls the AMOUNT of money, it is who controls the AVAILABILITY of the money. And the only way to control the availability of money in our nation is to do away with investment capitalism and the free market system.

Are you willing to make your children pay cash for a house? Are you willing to force start up companies to start up without loans or stock sales? Do you realize the pace reduction America will have if we force our entrepreneurs and start up companies to rely completely on their wallets and free donations form other people? Are you willing to completely get rid of credit cards and car loans, and drive/buy only what you can pay cash for at the moment?

I think most of America wishes they could do that, but in reality, they are not willing to. As long as we have the values that we do, we will see this cycle repeat itself. There is no changing it by changing who controls the amount of money.

My suggestion is that we learn to accept it and how to live with it. In reality, as long as America isn't willing to give up our lifestyle, we might as well play the game, cause we sure aren't going to beat it.

Just my .02

You are starting to get it but capitalism and commodities backing currency, isn't the problem. No matter whether we use gold, silver or fiat currency it has to be controlled to prevent its manipulation and the manipulation of the people. This job was given to our elected representatives but they were bought off, we let it happen and we were asleep. I do not know of a perfect system as someone will always try to take advantage of it.

The problem is where we allow people to monopolize things by doing nothing to prevent them. I remember something called the monopolies and mergers commission which was set up to prevent monopolies happening but again it was bought off and made it easier for the big corporations to create a monopoly and protected them when they did. Again it is our fault for not stopping them in their tracks when they started to do this.

In a true free society people are free to do as they wish provided that what they do does not have any adverse effect on others. We have been negligent in our responsibility to stop some from doing that. I don't have all the answers on how to do it.

What I am saying is the Money Masters is an excellent video but it is flawed too and we should be discussing these issues to come up with workable solutions but there is no time left to sit on our butt and do nothing, we have to act now.

Buying gold and silver will work as a stop gap until we have a better solution although the people that are imposing this tyranny on us own most of the gold and silver. We have to get these people behind bars and confiscate and redistribute their ill-gotten wealth. Again I don't have all the answers in how we will do that either.

[mbrownn]

This thread is a healthy debate on one of the subjects we should be seeing on tv. The very fact we don't see it tells you there is a problem in the media. I have about 200 documentaries on my PC that you will never see on the mainstream they are not inciting any illegal actions or anything bad but do give a different view that fits the facts better than anything you see on tv. No doubt you have some of these too or you wouldn't be able to talk sensibly on this subject.

[mbrownn]

I havjust looked at this on Headlines - David Icke Website

I think it says it all

"Thursday, 13 October 2011 12:08
THE FIRST STREETWISE REVOLUTION? ...

… OR ANOTHER FALSE AND MANIPULATED DAWN?
It’s Time To Choose
The David Icke Newsletter Goes Out On Sunday

Any ‘protest’, any ‘change’ or ‘revolution’ not founded on the list below – at the very least the list below – has got no chance of changing anything. These very pillars of the system must fall or they will block any transformation of the human condition. The system does not need to be tinkered with or even fundamentally changed (on the surface). The whole bloody lot must go … starting with …

1. An end to creating money out of thin air on computer screens and charging interest on it (fractional reserve lending).

2. An end to governments borrowing fresh-air money called ‘credit’ from private banks and the people paying interest on this ‘money’ that has never, does not and will never exist. Governments (and that concept must change radically) can create their own currency – interest free.

3. An end to private banks issuing non-existent money called ‘credit’ at all and thus creating ‘money’ as a debt from the very start.

4. An end to casinos like Wall Street and the City of London betting mercilessly on the financial and commodity markets with the lives of billions around the world.

5. An end to all professional lobby groups that earn their living and their clients’ living from corrupting the professionally corruptible – vast numbers of world politicians and the overwhelming majority on Capitol Hill.

6. An end to no-contract government in which mendacious politicians can promise the people they will do this and that to win their support and then do the very opposite after they have lied themselves into office (see Obama).

7. An end to the centralisation of power in all areas of our lives and a start to diversifying power to communities to decide their own lives and thus ensure there are too many points of decision making for any cabal to centrally control.

That is just for starters. There is so much more where that came from. What good will come from rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic? NONE.

The banking system as we know it does not need to be ‘changed’ - it needs to be gone. It is a criminal activity based on fraud, extortion and, through its effect, on worldwide mass murder.

Its replacement needs to be decided by the population - not the very people who created it in the first place and are covertly manipulating a new global structure of financial control based on a world central bank.

Ain't that right, Mr Rothschild, Mr Rockefeller, Mr Soros?

The tail is not wagging the dog – the tail is wagging the elephant so many are there in servitude to the few."

[mbrownn]

This video is great David Icke "What is Money?" from Radical Truth Knowledge and Revolution - YouTube

[Farmhand]

This video tells how it's all thought to have come about.

The explanation starts at 2:40 in the first video. The whole video is good though.

Part 1
Money As Debt (1 of 5) - YouTube

Part 2
Money As Debt (2 of 5) - YouTube

Part 3 This one explains perpetual debt at 4:27 mins.
Money As Debt (3 of 5) - YouTube

Part 4 Usury
Money As Debt (4 of 5) - YouTube

Part 5
Money as Debt 5 of 5 - YouTube



Cheers