Buy a Pitchfork

[mbrownn]

Thats another good film too and this one is great if you like animated ones The American Dream By The Provocateur Network - YouTube

[Nadda]

I have just looked at this on Headlines - David Icke Website.

I applaud that list.

I do not know of a perfect system as someone will always try to take advantage of it.

Thats exactly right. No matter what government or currency system any country has, there will always be specific individuals in positions of power.
Its those people who can be and usually are corrupted by their own personal quest or agenda or the agenda of someone else who has the power to influence them. These positions will always be a revolving door because people do not live forever. Basically even if those people at those positions of power are good and pure of heart, they wont be there forever. The very next person elected or appointed may not have the people's best interest at heart.

I agree with that list above, that has to be apart of cleaning house.

[Shadesz]

Money printed interest free for the people is not fake money.

Money printed to gather interest for the benefit of the central bankers and
artificially inflate markets is fake money.

....

People are loaned money from the government so there is no need for interest.

There are other ways and reasons to lend money too.

Cheers

By fake money I meant fiat currency. I am for fiat currency though, so don't get me wrong.

You bring up a question I have often wondered... does inflation even need to exist in a society? Why does it exist in society? Think about it everyone, and get back to me.

Another question,
I know time may be limited, but can you share as many scenarios as you can of why people would loan money without getting something in return? Right now the only one i see is a wealthy person loaning money to their children and grandchildren interest free.

PS, I think we may be able to develop a system that still allows free market, but can do away with "business cycles". I also think that this market could encourage America to remain world leaders. I haven't rounded out the entire idea yet. It would rely on the American people being more responsible for the leaders they elect, and holding them more accountable. The problem is, the only way I see such a plan implemented is a complete revolution, one in which I believe would require violence/war.

[Shadesz]

BTW, thanks for the vids guys. Some I have seen already, some I haven't. I'm re-watching them asap

[Farmhand]

Hi Shades, It is a very bleak looking situation, and I don't profess to have many solutions but I can smell a bad smell that needs fixin.

I know time may be limited, but can you share as many scenarios as you can of why people would loan money without getting something in return.

Ahah I see, you're still thinking with a money head. I didn't say there was no
way to get "anything" in return. There is profit sharing, say if you had some
money put away and wanted some cheap potatoes for the winter but you no
time or no equipment, and you know I have time and/or equipment but no
money for tractor fuel for ploughing or whatever, you could approach me with
the proposition of lending me money for either a share of the crop to the
value of the loan or some potatoes and some profit like profit sharing.

If the crop fails you lose you're money, you want the spuds you take the risk
you lend the money.

Then there is interest free government loans. It's all in the video's.

I think this video has some things about it.
Money As Debt (4 of 5) - YouTube

In a well setup system these things could be made to work with common
sense protections for both parties.

As mentioned in one of the video's, the banks only create the principal to loan
out they don't create the interest that needs to be paid. Therefore the
system is always short of money for people to get hold of to pay the interest
and the principal, not enough money exists for everyone to do that. So some
must fail, they must it cannot be any other way. We are all trying as hard as
possible to get the money from others they need to pay their interest debts.

It's a rigged table at the casino the house can't lose. Perfect scam, almost,
there was no plan for everyone to "wake up".

Cheers

[Shadesz]

Hi Shades, It is a very bleak looking situation, and I don't profess to have many solutions but I can smell a bad smell that needs fixin.



Ahah I see, you're still thinking with a money head. I didn't say there was no
way to get "anything" in return. There is profit sharing, say if you had some
money put away and wanted some cheap potatoes for the winter but you no
time or no equipment, and you know I have time and/or equipment but no
money for tractor fuel for ploughing or whatever, you could approach me with
the proposition of lending me money for either a share of the crop to the
value of the loan or some potatoes and some profit like profit sharing.

If the crop fails you lose you're money, you want the spuds you take the risk
you lend the money.

This changes the type of interest, but there is still interest involved. Now you just pay in potatoes instead of notes. It manifests the same problem. The grower is being controlled by the investor, because he knows that even though he doesn't have to pay the investor if the crop fails (which is the same as saying you buy back stocks at their current market value, even if that value is zero). Anyways, he knows that if he doesn't perform for the investor, it will be hard for him to find future investors. Hence interest still exists, and the problem still exists. People are still working extra to "produce" for their debt master.

Then there is interest free government loans. It's all in the video's.

I think this video has some things about it.
Money As Debt (4 of 5) - YouTube

In a well setup system these things could be made to work with common
sense protections for both parties.

As mentioned in one of the video's, the banks only create the principal to loan
out they don't create the interest that needs to be paid. Therefore the
system is always short of money for people to get hold of to pay the interest
and the principal, not enough money exists for everyone to do that. So some
must fail, they must it cannot be any other way. We are all trying as hard as
possible to get the money from others they need to pay their interest debts.

It's a rigged table at the casino the house can't lose. Perfect scam, almost,
there was no plan for everyone to "wake up".

Cheers

I haven't reviewed that full video series yet. I will comment when I get there.

Governmental loans is the only way I see people acquiring interest free loans, other than the family situation I mentioned earlier.

I'm kind of saddened you don't have more examples. I really wish there were more, but I think in reality we might be limited to these two situations...

As far as me still thinking in terms of money... its fact that we will ALWAYS exchange goods using some sort of representation of the value of those goods. IE money will always exist. Regardless if it is a printed piece of paper, a digital number 1, or a weight of a special mineral. Money will be there forever.

[Joit]

You bring up a question I have often wondered... does inflation even need to exist in a society? Why does it exist in society? Think about it everyone, and get back to me

Shadez you do the oposite what i did ask for, you are describing the Problems without a Solution. I actually asked for, where to use a Hook, to start at, and to make Changes.

Your Question above was answered too, at, ANY Dollar has Interests on it. New Money is only created over new Loans.
To show you more what it is about. A Country get his Currency from one from the Central Banks. Say 100k. The Bank want back 2% Interest. This 2 % are not in the Circulation. The Bank is the only Institution what can create new Money.
Capitalism is founded at, that anyone has Capital on his Account/Bank, and that is for, to get the Interests back for the main Credit. But for that, you need to have 40% from the main Credit as Capital anywhere.
And since Banks can lend Capital with only 5 Reserve, they can make from this 40% Capital 20 times more Capital with 10% Interests on it.
As Example. Main Credit for a Country 100k + 2% Interests - 102k. Needed Capital =40k with 4% Credit Interest. The Bank can lend now 40k 20 Times = 800k. Interests on it, 10% = 80K
You see, that at the current System they are able to make even from Capital Debts.
But this Interests are not in Circulation, remember, it are only 100k with 2% Interest until now.
Any Value what they can pay back now are the Interest, what are created from Thin Air. And that are ? 82k Bucks, where the 4% from the Capital of 40k is only a Tip now.
This 82k are now only Interests, what are payed back to the Banks, and nothing from the First 100k is payed back. So they have to take new Money from the Bank, only to pay the further Interests, but nothing from the Main Credit.

And that is, why Inflation starts, because they need to make more and more Money to cover interests, and that is, what they did in the meantime, where noone did think about the System behind, but the Debts been created in the Dark.
England was at last 700 Years without Interests, any other Countrys like China are also Debt free, but where i dont know, how they handle it, when they print only the Money they do need for her Economy and dont take much from others, they are of course Debt free. Also they have a strong Export, where they can cover up any Deficits.

The Example from the Corporations you did show above, i do not think, that is the Behavior from usual Companys, but the one, what are tied to the Stock market, and it is her intention to create Unbalance.

There should be further Regulations at the Stockmarket, that Merchandise or Properties or whatsoever they are dealing there, could only traded often as it is needed to, to bring a Product from the Producer to the Consumer, and all the other Bets and speculations what you can do there need to be forbidden, that its a Market Place only, but not a Betting Office anymore.

Even that further growing/expanding and increasing Sales would not a Problem anymore when you have a healthy Economy, because when anyone can get what is on the Market, who needs more and more Money, what is actually only printed Paper. Even, you may will see at a Point, that you have a lot of useless things, when you start hoard them.
And even, there are not really so much Peoples out what do need that much things, because, and be honest, when you think about, what you really need, and what the Market provides you, you will see, that it are a lot of Things what noone really needs.
Its a Problem of Education and Economy strategies and what they try to suggest you what you need and what you dont.

[Shadesz]

Shadez you do the oposite what i did ask for, you are describing the Problems without a Solution. I actually asked for, where to use a Hook, to start at, and to make Changes.

I am getting to my suggestion of change. Before we can establish how to change or what to work on first, we need to identify every single problem (every head of the snake). Otherwise how can we decide how to fix the problem if we don't understand it?

And that is, why Inflation starts, because they need to make more and more Money to cover interests

You are exactly right. At least in my mind. Inflation is caused by the need to make new money to pay for old debt. If the US didn't have to pay interest on the money that is created, there would be no need for inflation.

The Example from the Corporations you did show above, i do not think, that is the Behavior from usual Companys, but the one, what are tied to the Stock market, and it is her intention to create Unbalance.

I don't agree. Have you ever worked for a fortune 500 company? I have. I have lead a 3 million $/year department in one of their stores. I can tell you that publicly traded companies have one goal in mind. And that is to make a profit for their shareholders... SO THEY CAN SURVIVE. Corporations goals aren't to unbalance the system. Their goal is survival.

The problem is, when they receive investments (so they can be born), they are now slaves to that investor. Their entire goal must be to please the investor so they can keep the money he gave them. If he isn't satisfied, he will take his money elsewhere. The problem isn't the corporations. The problem is that there is interest (or call it an expected gain) on the money that is loaned to the corporation. This applies in stock, bank loan, and angel investor scenarios. The path might be different, but the problem is the same.

And even, there are not really so much Peoples out what do need that much things, because, and be honest, when you think about, what you really need, and what the Market provides you, you will see, that it are a lot of Things what noone really needs.
Its a Problem of Education and Economy strategies and what they try to suggest you what you need and what you dont.

Like i said, America isn't willing to give up their lifestyles. There might be a way to maintain the lifestyle while protecting the money system. I'm working on presenting it, please be patient.

[Joit]

Shadesz you are still only describing Problems over Problems, but dont show any Hooks, what there need to be used.
I call this usual as trolling.

Btw did you know, that Thinking to much about the Problems can drive your further away from the real Causes as anything?
Even more worse, when you compare the Problems from the existing System, and not with a System, where you may dont even have this Problems.

[Shadesz]

Shadesz you are still only describing Problems over Problems, but dont show any Hooks, what there need to be used.
I call this usual as trolling.

Btw did you know, that Thinking to much about the Problems can drive your further away from the real Causes as anything?
Even more worse, when you compare the Problems from the existing System, and not with a System, where you may dont even have this Problems.

Like I said, have patience. I am getting there.

What suggestions are you making to correct the problems or change the system? I want specifics and implementation plans. Otherwise you are just dreaming. So with that, what specific plans do you propose?

I will tell you mine once I make them clear and document them. I believe in working through answers thoroughly before I propose them. So have patience. In the meantime what changes do you suggest?

[Shadesz]

I havjust looked at this on Headlines - David Icke Website

I think it says it all

"Thursday, 13 October 2011 12:08
THE FIRST STREETWISE REVOLUTION? ...

… OR ANOTHER FALSE AND MANIPULATED DAWN?
It’s Time To Choose
The David Icke Newsletter Goes Out On Sunday

Any ‘protest’, any ‘change’ or ‘revolution’ not founded on the list below – at the very least the list below – has got no chance of changing anything. These very pillars of the system must fall or they will block any transformation of the human condition. The system does not need to be tinkered with or even fundamentally changed (on the surface). The whole bloody lot must go … starting with …

1. An end to creating money out of thin air on computer screens and charging interest on it (fractional reserve lending).

2. An end to governments borrowing fresh-air money called ‘credit’ from private banks and the people paying interest on this ‘money’ that has never, does not and will never exist. Governments (and that concept must change radically) can create their own currency – interest free.

3. An end to private banks issuing non-existent money called ‘credit’ at all and thus creating ‘money’ as a debt from the very start.

4. An end to casinos like Wall Street and the City of London betting mercilessly on the financial and commodity markets with the lives of billions around the world.

5. An end to all professional lobby groups that earn their living and their clients’ living from corrupting the professionally corruptible – vast numbers of world politicians and the overwhelming majority on Capitol Hill.

6. An end to no-contract government in which mendacious politicians can promise the people they will do this and that to win their support and then do the very opposite after they have lied themselves into office (see Obama).

7. An end to the centralisation of power in all areas of our lives and a start to diversifying power to communities to decide their own lives and thus ensure there are too many points of decision making for any cabal to centrally control.

That is just for starters. There is so much more where that came from. What good will come from rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic? NONE.

The banking system as we know it does not need to be ‘changed’ - it needs to be gone. It is a criminal activity based on fraud, extortion and, through its effect, on worldwide mass murder.

Its replacement needs to be decided by the population - not the very people who created it in the first place and are covertly manipulating a new global structure of financial control based on a world central bank.

Ain't that right, Mr Rothschild, Mr Rockefeller, Mr Soros?

The tail is not wagging the dog – the tail is wagging the elephant so many are there in servitude to the few."

Very well said. These are they types of changes I agree with. The problem is, and this is what I am working on, is how to implement these changes without going into a new civil/revolutionary war....

[Joit]

Like I said, have patience. I am getting there.

What suggestions are you making to correct the problems or change the system? I want specifics and implementation plans. Otherwise you are just dreaming. So with that, what specific plans do you propose?

Shadesz, i am not about to post my Suggestions what to change. I am asking the participating Peoples here, WHERE they would use the first Hook, because it is easy to telling Peoples about the Problems, but not to know, where to start to change the System or clearly specify your Demands and aim then at somebody.
When i now should start to make Suggestions i would fill up a Page from a Thread possible.
And again, because it seems a bit difficult for you what i mean with WHERE.

When you want to change something, WHERE Do you go at. How long will i takes, that there will Changes happen. How long to you think the Changes will standing upright.

But at all, i would like first to see, that the Gouvernment(s), or even Anyone there, is able to say "NO to more FED Money", and is able to to change the Direction where we go to, stop this Wheel of Debt turning faster and faster.

[Farmhand]

Like I said, have patience. I am getting there.

What suggestions are you making to correct the problems or change the system? I want specifics and implementation plans. Otherwise you are just dreaming. So with that, what specific plans do you propose?

I will tell you mine once I make them clear and document them. I believe in working through answers thoroughly before I propose them. So have patience. In the meantime what changes do you suggest?

In all honesty I don't think it is the right time yet, not enough people are
badly enough effected. Not enough people even understand the problem or
are aware of it.

My plan is to speak out against it and try to make as many people as possible
aware of it while learning more about the problem myself.

I was just commenting that the real problem is the Federal reserve Bank and
the Politicians, the wall street fat cats are just cannon fodder for the elite.
They are expendable and replaceable.

I think the protests are good but most in the western countries are not ready
for forcing change to the FED and the Government corruption and criminality.


Cheers

[Shadesz]

Shadesz, i am not about to post my Suggestions what to change. I am asking the participating Peoples here, WHERE they would use the first Hook, because it is easy to telling Peoples about the Problems, but not to know, where to start to change the System or clearly specify your Demands and aim then at somebody.
When i now should start to make Suggestions i would fill up a Page from a Thread possible.
And again, because it seems a bit difficult for you what i mean with WHERE.

When you want to change something, WHERE Do you go at. How long will i takes, that there will Changes happen. How long to you think the Changes will standing upright.

But at all, i would like first to see, that the Gouvernment(s), or even Anyone there, is able to say "NO to more FED Money", and is able to to change the Direction where we go to, stop this Wheel of Debt turning faster and faster.

We are having some type of communication barrier. I am asking the same questions you are... "how do we implement these changes" means the same thing as "where do we start".

I'll give you an idea of what I am working on. I believe we need to to do away with interest loans on All levels (central banking and private banking) and we also need to do away with capital investing (stocks, angel investors, venture capitalists, etc).

My question is how do we do that?

I personally believe that saying "stop using the federal reserve" does not qualify as a SPECIFIC plan. Sure we need to stop using it, but how are we really going to get people and the government to give up the mindset?

I am working on solutions and answers. Quit pestering me and I might actually have time to give you something useful.

[Shadesz]

I started a new thread to discuss my solutions...
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-solution.html