water wheel power

[rickoff]

Hi folks,

I just bought a country property of 22 acres which has a stream that winds through it for a total of about 2,000 feet. This was definitely a factor in buying the property, and I do intend to make use of this stream to produce energy. Here's a satellite image of the property:



My property is the somewhat triangular shaped parcel to the left of the vertical yellow eastern boundary line. As you can see, the stream enters the property at the bottom of that yellow line, where there is a bridge. The stream is fed by a large bog that collects water runoff from two nearby mountains. There is very little elevation change of the stream (roughly 5 feet of difference at most) as it courses through the property. The widest portion (near the point where it leaves the property at the north end) is about 60 feet across, and the narrowest portion is about 6 feet across. Shortly after leaving my property, it joins with another branch and becomes a Class A whitewater run that is frequented by kayakers and rafters. I'm sure that there will be a lot of water running through my stream during spring runoff, when the snow melts from the mountains, but right now the movement appears fairly slow except in the portions where the stream narrows down and/or shallows out. I'll be moving to the property in December, and will walk the length of the stream at that time to take some photos and video of the portions that appear to offer the best potential for water power. Winters can be harsh here in Maine, and while I'd love to install a water wheel in the stream I am wondering if the flow rate would be sufficient to keep the wheel turning rather than freezing up. If not, then I'll have to devise another method, as it would be pure folly to let such a resource go unutilized.

I'm really enthused about this new property, as it opens up so many possibilities to make use of renewable energy resources. Once I have a good idea of the water resources potential, and have some photos to show, I will come back in here and offer some ideas that I hope to implement. I'll be glad to entertain any suggestions you folks may have, and I thank you in advance.

Rick

[nueview]

Hi Rick
ok here is an actual project as an actual problem so lets look it over.
the first thing you will need to do is find out if there are any waterway laws you will have to meet or satisfy, such as restricting fish migration or stream enviromental impact rules for the location. here in alaska were i live it generally costs about $100,000 and about five years just to get through this process and the fine for putting something in a stream without permits can be $50,000 so do check this out first.
as for streams freezing you would be surprized how little it can take to stop this from occuring even just a plastic shed can stop water moving at a good speed from freezing over.
as for it being runoff from a swamp you would be supprized but it could have better runoff in the winter than in the summer as swamps have decaying vegetation and generate allot of heat even though it may not seem like it.
watching the stream banks can tell you allot about the stream flow the higher the banks the more the maximum run off and the creak bed look at the size of the rocks in the shallow areas and the sediment in the deeper areas.
with a low head of the creak restricting the flow at a portion could be easy to do for a flume wheel without altering the overall stream dynamics and fish gates or doors can be built so fish migration is not impeded either.
the next major thing you need to know is the stream volume and velocity.
you will need to find a narrow section that is not to deep were the water flows fairly fast and through a stick in up stream and get a speed such as feet/second or the like then get a cross sectional area and you will have a good idea of calculating the stream volumefor power generation.
seeing as you say there is about 2000 foot of stream length several flume wheels could be installed say one every 500 foot or even 250 foot depending on the total demand needed.
just some things for you to think about before you start.
Martin

[rickoff]

Hi Martin, and thanks for your thoughts. Under Maine law, any proposal to place a mechanism within a stream for the purpose of generating electrical or mechanical power will require a Hydropower permit obtained from the Maine Department of Environmental Protection. After browsing through some of the permitting factors, I find that it probably won't be all that difficult to obtain a permit for a water wheel project. Three guideline factors for issuance of permits definitely in my favor are the following:

• Interest of riparian owners: Recognize and respect the rightful interests of riparian owners (land owners with property abutting a stream).

• Increase hydroelectric power: Increase the hydroelectric power available to replace foreign oil in the State.

• Hydropower development: Streamline procedures to facilitate hydropower development under reasoned environmental, technical and public safety constraints.

It would appear that the State legislature is all for promoting hydropower projects, stating that, "Hydropower is presently the State’s most significant indigenous resource that can be used to free our citizens from their extreme dependence on foreign oil for peaking power." The Legislature further declares that, "it is the policy of the State to support and encourage the development of hydropower projects by simplifying and clarifying requirements for permits, while assuring reasonable protection of natural resources and the public interest in use of waters of the State."

Since a water wheel will not alter the water level, or restrict the flow of water or fish in the stream, it seems like a winner for easy permitting. Historical considerations may also benefit me. In the earlier years of the town there were many water wheels set up on the streams to power farm equipment and mills.

Incidentally, the bog that I spoke of earlier which feeds the stream is one and one half miles long, and a half mile wide at its widest point, and has ten streams feeding into it. Thus, it doesn't seem likely that my stream, which is the outlet from the bog, would go dry at any time of year.

[nueview]

OK Rick
it sounds like your state is more receptive to hydro power than Alaska.
now as for the marine life some fish will go were there is very little water and some won't so there needs to be some alternate route for them one down low and one up high as some fish will not go under an item and some won't go over either way most fish look for the main channel to travel and to get the best performance out of a flume wheel it needs to appear to be the main channel.
if the flume channel has the stream restricted so it raises the flow by 1 inch the velocity of the water through the flume will almost double at this point.
the flume wheel should be about 6 foot in diameter minimum and the channel should fit relatively close to the wheel and it should have some weight this gives the wheel carry over for torque when running at speed so better performance and more steady power with load shifts.
it is also a good idea to include some form of gate at the flume entrance so that the flow can be shut down for any maintenance a brake is unreliable and a dangerous situation as flume wheels can have very high torque ratings and diverting the flow is much safer in combination with a brake.
you can now figure your brake torque rating and i would size my generator just a bit larger.
i have used Gin long generators on windmills and they are a good product both as grid tie units and for battery charging as well with a flume wheel you might want to consider a clutched system with two types of generators one for charging a bank of batteries and a second that can be grid tied so when the battery bank is full the excess power can be sold back to the grid this is preferable to no return on investment or waisting the potential power.
but either way at that point is is your consideration.
Martin

PS you may want to check with the local state biologist about the local marine life habits as it is always better to ask first and avoid the hassles.

[Savvypro]

Might be a good idea to take a look at Viktor Schauberger and Ludwig Herbrands work - especily the following article, which covers the important bits: The Josef Hasslberger page: Technology

The following is a quote from the linked article:

We can see from the above statistical tables that 45 m/sec of velocity are equivalent to an altitude differential of more than 100 meters. And assuming that we have a flow of water of 10 cbm/sec, we can predict (at v = 45 m/sec) an energy output of 10 megawatt. This is a considerable amount of power and it can be obtained almost anywhere along the normal course of a river, without the costly and environmentally questionable practice of constructing a dam and a man made lake to obtain 100 meters of altitude differential.

[rickoff]

I replaced the satellite image in post #18 with a 2009 view taken in late October. It is a sharper image with better lighting, and affords a better view of the stream since most tree leaves have fallen at this point in time.

I am thinking that perhaps my first step should be to obtain a permit to build a bridge across the stream at a narrow section not far from my homestead. I think this would be readily approved, since the major portion of my woodlot lies to the east of the stream, and access to the woodlot can only be had by crossing the stream. I'd want a bridge wide enough that I could drive a tractor across it, and a covered bridge would be preferable in order to protect the platform and underlying timbers from deterioration, since one cannot use pressure treated lumber for a bridge crossing a stream due to the probability of the preservative chemicals leaching into the water. I think that such a bridge could also be seen as a positive development to the public, since it would offer a pathway for snowmobiles and ATV's, as well as hikers, to safely cross the stream.

Once the bridge is in place, it would not be all that difficult to suspend a waterwheel from it, and this would prevent the need to alter the stream bed, which is an important consideration to the State DEP. Once you consider any plans to alter the stream bed by dredging or filling below the high water level of the stream then the permitting becomes far more complicated. I do have connections with the water quality and waterway regulatory folks at DEP, having worked more than 30 years as a volunteer water quality monitor and data aquisition coordinator, and am also familiar with biologists at the fisheries and wildlife department, so this will be helpful in determining what my possibilities and opportunities are.

Rick

[nueview]

yeah flume wheels are actually pretty high tech when you consider them and how much they changed so much of history.
it sounds like you have a plan so wish you well in your endevour.
i am including the following as a high tech alternative for moderate stream head pressures as know some other folks may be interested.

Directory:Zotloterer Gravitational Vortex Power Plant - PESWiki

best of luck,
Martin

[rickoff]

@Stealth: Interesting, and sounds like the traditional type water wheel set up, although using aluminum for the wheel construction. Any chance you could grab a photo or two of that installation and post them here? I really haven't had the time yet to consider what materials I would prefer to use for construction of the wheel, and it seems as though that would depend upon whether one wants a lightweight wheel or a wheel with considerable heft. A lightweight aluminum wheel would appear to have the advantages of ease of rotation and reduced drag and wear on bearing surfaces, while a hefty wheel would seem to have the advantage of greater torque applied to any driven mechanism once the wheel is set into motion. Of course even an 8 to 10 foot diameter aluminum wheel would have some heft to it, and might well prove substantial enough depending upon the the requirements of the driven mechanism. Have you been inside the housed portion of this fellow's setup to see what actual use he is making of it? A photo of the interior mechanisms would be very interesting if you can gain access to them.

@nueview: Thanks for the link, and all your suggestions. At this stage I really don't have a fixed plan, and am only gathering ideas, so any ideas passed along to me that may be helpful are greatly appreciated. After I am situated at the new homestead, I will canvass the surrounding area to determine where sites of existing or under construction water wheels are located, and will visit those to take some photos and video to share in this thread.

Bottom line economics will of course play a substantial role in determining the feasibility of a hydro power project on my stream, as well as flowage factors, and after all factors are considered I may possibly find that it would be more economical, and less of a hassle, to simply have a pony walk a circular path of 20 foot diameter while hitched to a post attached to a central hub which could drive a generator. Of course this method has its costs too (cost of pony and pony feed, shelter and maintenance of pony, construction of the mechanisms, and storage batteries if used, etc.). Then too, a stream can provide power continuously if the flow is adequate and sustained, whereas a pony would need non-productive rest periods and sleep time. I do suspect, however, that a pony attached to a simple 20 foot fulcrum bar could provide substantially more drive torque than a water wheel with moderate to limited flowage, and thus may possibly produce an equal or greater amount of power than said water wheel even if worked only 8 hours per day. Of course pony power is getting a bit off the topic of this thread, but it might be interesting to consider for the sake of comparison and alternatives. Any thoughts in this regard?

Rick

[nueview]

actually as far as the pony goes it ain't a bad idea there is a dog sled musher who runs his dogs and for excersize has an alternator set to the same kind of pony show you are talking about and i think he said the six dogs run 3 alternators and in an hour his bank of batteries are charged for the day.
i haven't seen the setup but met the guy at the karaoke show.
Martin

[rickoff]

@nueview: That's interesting about the dogs. I know those mushers can move a lot of weight, and they love to work. Ponies like to work too, and I have seen merry-go-round type setups where three or four of them are hooked up and giving rides to children. Heck, that might be a dandy idea in the warmer months to earn money to pay for the horse feed, and in the winter the ponies could be diverted from the merry-go-round to pull sleigh rides when customers show up. Hmmmm...

@stealth: Thanks, it sounds interesting, and I'll be looking forward to seeing whatever pictures you can post.

Rick

[nueview]

yeah Rick
do you ever have realy stupid thoughts and then spend the day wondering about them?
well here goes a real good one for you. instead of the dogs or ponys lets say a guy builds a forty foot high set of vortex towers os that they dump back and forth dropping about four foot or so each time and each time you get increased velocity power so you would be running about 19 generators with the same water by the time you get to the bottom.
now for the stupid part how much energy would it take to pump the water back to the top?
i mean the total spinning pressure of all that water is far above the head pressure volume which would never self run.
i am just wondering because i have a hill out back and could use some old oil barrels and could probably get sixty from top to bottom so how much water is needed to feed the vortex?
you would have one heck of a flood if the pump stopped though.
Martin

[willy96]

you guys are gonna really do all this work for a few drops of free energy ?

o my my i built that turbine many years ago long b4 i knew who tesla was ... i have since found better methods .. altho i bet my turbine will fly !

as in lift off the ground !




W

you know i shattered the formula of how horse power is calculated with this turbine .. i proved hp as total bullsh!t it is a poor excuse as a method of mesurement i can increase output of my turbine with out changeing the input by simply adding more weight ...

[rickoff]

yeah Rick
do you ever have realy stupid thoughts and then spend the day wondering about them?
well here goes a real good one for you. instead of the dogs or ponys lets say a guy builds a forty foot high set of vortex towers os that they dump back and forth dropping about four foot or so each time and each time you get increased velocity power so you would be running about 19 generators with the same water by the time you get to the bottom.
now for the stupid part how much energy would it take to pump the water back to the top?
i mean the total spinning pressure of all that water is far above the head pressure volume which would never self run.
i am just wondering because i have a hill out back and could use some old oil barrels and could probably get sixty from top to bottom so how much water is needed to feed the vortex?
you would have one heck of a flood if the pump stopped though.
Martin

I know what you mean, Martin, and my mind is constantly spinning around with thoughts. To my thinking, it is only the thoughts and dreams that are never thought through which are the stupid ones. In thinking about different possibilities for water wheel use, I have in fact thought of employing a tower setup as you are suggesting. My idea was to either use the water wheel to direct drive a water pump to send water to the tower, or to employ water pick-up cups on the wheel that would dump water to a trough at or near the top of the wheel. If this second method is employed, water would run down the trough, which would be slanted back towards ground level, where it would activate a hydraulic ram pump and excess water would return to the stream. Ram pumps are capable of lifting water quite a ways up, of course, and require nothing but water flow to accomplish this. The question with this type of installation would be how much water the cups on the wheel would be able to hold without stalling the wheel, which would be a design consideration. In this regard, I think many smaller cups would be better than fewer large ones. I don't see flooding, from reverse flow from the tower as a problem, since a ball type one-way check valve could be employed to prevent reverse flow back to the pump should it fail.

[Savvypro]

you guys are gonna really do all this work for a few drops of free energy ?

o my my i built that turbine many years ago long b4 i knew who tesla was ... i have since found better methods .. altho i bet my turbine will fly !

as in lift off the ground !




W

you know i shattered the formula of how horse power is calculated with this turbine .. i proved hp as total bullsh!t it is a poor excuse as a method of mesurement i can increase output of my turbine with out changeing the input by simply adding more weight ...

Not sure where you get the idea that the result will only be "few drops of free energy".

If there is enough water volume (using the method I linked to), then it is easily possible to power a house or two or a farm. Just look at a water wheel powered mill. I recently saw a documentary covering the restoration of a mill in Wales in the UK. The water wheel frame its self weighed half a ton - as it was all steel. The stream that was used to turn the wheel was nothing to write home about, being only 2 meters wide and very shallow. If it wasn’t for the mini dam about 5ft high some 25 meters up stream from the mill, with the water being channelled to the water wheel along the river bank. The mill wouldn’t run.

Anyway, if your turbine works as you say it does - why not share the plans.

[nueview]

ok Rick
i guess it is ok to waiste a few brain cells on this then.
when i was a kid in new jersey there was a low head dam about six feet high and it had three ram pumps and they lifted water to troughs up in the cow pastures and they had valves to turn them on or off. the amount of lift depended on the water velocity so head pressure gave better operation.
the amount of output got smaller as the hieght of lift as the air pressure in the ram was harder to work.
so six foot of head pressure gave thirty six foot of lift if i remember right. it also used allot more water than it pumped as water was the fuel so to say.
it had to flow to get velocity then hammer shut compress the air drive the water check the back pressure open and flow again get velocity and on and on.
i am not sure it was real efficient as a mechanism but it did work without any fuel or electric.
a flume wheel is straight pressure to pressure. i would think it would outperform the ram pump.
as i said before Louis used flume wheels to pump a million gallons of water a day from the seign river to paris and i think the lift was 60 foot but am not sure about this part but still big river big wheels lots of water.
i am still thinking on the vortex tower though something about it is realy bothering me like the phi ratio of spin in the vortex maybe a set of vains or a vent like a tesla turbine at the vortex bottom then you have mass and speed and water is very charge sensative as well locked charges in motion can have a great braking effect or drive inputus.
Martin