Is solar still a viable option?

[OliviaJ]

Anyone have any advice? I've been thinking of installing solar panels on my roof for a little while but right before Christmas, the UK government slashed the feed in tariffs

I'd still like to do it as its great for the environment etc but obviously its a huge investment and i'd need to know I was going to make something out of it too! At the moment, it all seems a bit up in the air about what the new tariffs will be Without knowing that, how can they expect us to make such a big investment without a good idea of the returns???

Though in my research I did come upon this which somewhat amused me:

David Cameron Accused Over Feed-In Tariffs By Angry Businesswoman

Serves Cameron right if you ask me!!

But anyway, what do you guys think? Is solar still a viable option?

[john_g]

My view is that the feed-in tariff rate should be reduced to the normal consumer rate, this would stop robbing Paul to pay Peter. If you can afford the installation costs then the advantage of not having to rely on the utilities has to be great ,plus you are assured a supply. A few people are reporting a much lower energy production rate than they expected from panels, so that may be worth looking into.

[blackchisel97]

Anyone have any advice? I've been thinking of installing solar panels on my roof for a little while but right before Christmas, the UK government slashed the feed in tariffs

I'd still like to do it as its great for the environment etc but obviously its a huge investment and i'd need to know I was going to make something out of it too! At the moment, it all seems a bit up in the air about what the new tariffs will be Without knowing that, how can they expect us to make such a big investment without a good idea of the returns???

Though in my research I did come upon this which somewhat amused me:

David Cameron Accused Over Feed-In Tariffs By Angry Businesswoman

Serves Cameron right if you ask me!!

But anyway, what do you guys think? Is solar still a viable option?

In my opinion yes, even despite the fact that higher efficiency panels are not made available to to us. Technology exist and I've seen panel rated at 40% instead of 17%. This technology has been suppressed since 1976 and any photovoltaic cell capable of efficiency over 20% was classified. Reason behind - by the time your investment is fully paid of and you're about to enjoy first "free" watt of energy it is the time to replace your panels and batteries. With panels being of higher efficiency and good batteries you could become "energy independent" much sooner. No one will benefit from such..except you. Still, solar combined with technology which will compensate for such low efficiency (just take John Bedini Solar Charger as an example). Batteries will last longer and total surface of panels can be reduced.

V

[totoalas]

[ Still, solar combined with technology which will compensate for such low efficiency (just take John Bedini Solar Charger as an example). Batteries will last longer and total surface of panels can be reduced.

V[/QUOTE]

Hi,
Hope you can elaborate further on your comment on my current project
I have a 6 coiler SSG Bedini charger and one 7 AH battery that will charge up to 500 AH ( see Minoly Video) but actually use only 60 Ah battery
5 watts (0.29 A 18 v ) solar panel to charge the 7 Ah 12 battery
and another 12 v 7 ah battery to charge a 60 Ah battery
The question is the 5 watts enough for my set up or I go for 10 or 60 watts
for the 7 ah battery or increase the size of the primary charger ///

thanks

totoalas

[kcarring]

totalas

If you can use close to all of the energy coming out of your panel, with your circuit, then you're fine.

At my cabin, during peak sun, I have 1800 watts worth of panels, so at times that means up 80 amps of available current at 20V. When costs are considered, to build a Bedini charger capable of utilizing that amount of current... I'd be better to stick with MPPT, use the bedini circuits at night from a smaller bank, to condition the large bank during "inverter off" points... simply because, superior or not... the COST of building enough Bedini style circuits to accomodate 80A, and actually USE that available energy -- that money -- is better spent on more panels. Or other things I need. There is no point in NOT using your AVAILABLE current, in my mind. And, there is no point in spending excessive money on system optimization if it's money better spent on "more watts in".

That's my 2c

@olivia

in the UK, in your area, do they have smart meters and incentive to offer you a discounted rate on kW/h's -- IF -- you can prove you do not consume energy during peak demand? That is the only incentive here.... but still.. 1 kilowatt system that free's you from consuming, at high consumption points, works... for here... especially if you are partially doing it all "to do your part" - that certainly plays a factor, in my mind.

[totoalas]

totalas

If you can use close to all of the energy coming out of your panel, with your circuit, then you're fine.

At my cabin, during peak sun, I have 1800 watts worth of panels, so at times that means up 80 amps of available current at 20V. When costs are considered, to build a Bedini charger capable of utilizing that amount of current... I'd be better to stick with MPPT, use the bedini circuits at night from a smaller bank, to condition the large bank during "inverter off" points... simply because, superior or not... the COST of building enough Bedini style circuits to accomodate 80A, and actually USE that available energy -- that money -- is better spent on more panels. Or other things I need. There is no point in NOT using your AVAILABLE current, in my mind. And, there is no point in spending excessive money on system optimization if it's money better spent on "more watts in".

That's my 2c

@olivia

in the UK, in your area, do they have smart meters and incentive to offer you a discounted rate on kW/h's -- IF -- you can prove you do not consume energy during peak demand? That is the only incentive here.... but still.. 1 kilowatt system that free's you from consuming, at high consumption points, works... for here... especially if you are partially doing it all "to do your part" - that certainly plays a factor, in my mind.

Thanks again Kyle
By the way what is MPPT since im a newbie and would like to supply my folks in the Phil......
With 37 to 38 deg C normal weather , solar is the way to go but I need to make it affordable as much as possible

totoalas

[blackchisel97]

totalas

If you can use close to all of the energy coming out of your panel, with your circuit, then you're fine.

At my cabin, during peak sun, I have 1800 watts worth of panels, so at times that means up 80 amps of available current at 20V. When costs are considered, to build a Bedini charger capable of utilizing that amount of current... I'd be better to stick with MPPT, use the bedini circuits at night from a smaller bank, to condition the large bank during "inverter off" points... simply because, superior or not... the COST of building enough Bedini style circuits to accomodate 80A, and actually USE that available energy -- that money -- is better spent on more panels. Or other things I need. There is no point in NOT using your AVAILABLE current, in my mind. And, there is no point in spending excessive money on system optimization if it's money better spent on "more watts in".

That's my 2c

If you use 200W of panels and John Bedini Solar Kicker you'll get powerful charge for your battery bank. The smallest one is 10A and biggest 80W (if I remember well). For their price it would be difficult to find 200W solar panel. Charger will work in low light conditions too. I agree that it would be difficult to make such device from scratch for same $. Panels have low efficiency and they're overpriced. The only way to squeeze as much is possible from them is to use not directly but to combine with other technology.

@totoalas
Panels ratings are for ideal conditions. I can't even power my sixfilar SS from 40W at this time.
5W should be enough to keep battery topped but not during operation. Also, make sure you couple impedance of panel with your input (if you decide to run SSG from panel directly) using large capacitor rated at max panel V. Also, inverted trigger (solid state) will oscillate with couple volts input (low light).

V

[kcarring]

Thanks again Kyle
By the way what is MPPT since im a newbie and would like to supply my folks in the Phil......
With 37 to 38 deg C normal weather , solar is the way to go but I need to make it affordable as much as possible

totoalas

MPPT is maximum power point tracking, wherein the charge controller takes into account the fact that most solar panels produce more voltage than necessary to charge a battery (put very simply). They optimize the IV curve. On a cold morning they work quite well. This is because the voltage is often high, but the amperage low. They find the maximum area on the IV curve graph, and use a PWM to pulse through a buck converter (basically) which ultimately sends pulses of higher current to your batteries.

With your setup, I suggest you first really get to know your batteries. When I say this, I mean... When they are fully charged to say 12.6-12.8 or where-ever they like to sit, discharge them with a "predictable" load (the same load every time). For example a 20 watt halogen 12V. Not too far though. Time the discharge time, and see how long it takes to bring the battery down to 11.5V. Then Stop.

Do this a few times, and charge them with your normal as-is solar setup. Use a charge controller, if you have one, and if you do not have one, don't charge unattended unless you have a rather large battery, which I think you said you did not, for example:

If you have a 7 a/h battery (as opposed to a 100 amp hour battery RV) - don't let it charge for 4 days and get around to checking it at some arbitrary point. Get a feel for how long it takes hooked up directly, how long it takes to take it up to 12.6. And that's standing... Chances are it'll go higher, in order to get to that, and stay at that.

Do this a few times and get to know how your system behaves. Of course, if you have a charge controller, then use that and merely do a couple of charges, and discharges.

The point is, before you evaluate the Bedini circuit, get a feel for your system as it is - without the Bedini.

From my experience, there is little point in bouncing back and forth and back and forth between Bedini charge, and normal charge ESPECIALLY with SLA's.

Then, once you feel you have an idea of what to expect conventionally, start using your Bedini, instead.

Do not even think about formaing an opinion on the Bedini, until you have fully charged and discharged the battery about 5 times at least, because it's a different world.

This is not scientific and quantitative here, this is QUALITATIVE, because you have to realize, even if you are not entirely happy with the Bedini system, (and sometimes I hate to admit this...) it's a better way to make batteries last, in the long haul. But, it is different and at times doesn't make much sense... even myself after a year am only truly beginning to understand it!

The main point here is not to discredit the Bedini or to credit it.. the point is to get a feel for the difference. And get a feel for how your rendition of the Bedini works with your battery. Let's face it, we are not John Bedini and we aren't going to nail this stuff down to a T, early on in our experimentation. Everyone has varying degrees of success, but then again, everyone has different circuits, batteries, inputs, and loading.

My guess is that you'll find out what I have (and quite recently) -- the Bedini circuit is kind of tricky to run purely off of solar it requires some buffering with capacitance and my best luck has just been today, where I take many caps in parallel and then run them into linear voltage regulation, buck conversion, or more simply a leveling battery BEFORE the circuit and then run the circuit to charge the battery. Remember to use diodes where they make sense if the circuit remains connected while unattended / non sunny periods / night.

In your system you may get away with just caps. Or a bunch of double-A's.

What I am getting at, is, the circuit likes some stability! If your voltage and current availability are all over the map, your oscillation may die, lots of problems and little success may occur.

Recently I have had more success, but I'm going to admit: i pass current, I do not charge with spikes and spikes alone. For a few reasons. I believe that even John's solar circuit does this too. But with some work, you ought to be able to bypass that method and do pure radiant charging if you so desire, which in theory would give you your best battery life scenario of all; however - don't expect fast charging...

I am not a huge believer in the Bedini camp, to be honest, but it's like anything, how the hell can you judge if your experience with it is limited!!! How can I say I don't think Pele was any good at football if I never played at the FIFA level, so... as freaking frustrating as it is (believe me I know) don't give up, not even after 1 year, I say.

My latest is going to be a multifilar now that I have finally got the basic circuit to do WHAT ITS SUPPOSED TO DO, i.e. draw 80-100ma and pass close to the same into batteries and actually charge the dang things, not just give you fluff. That took me a year and believe me at times I wanted to toss the thing across the room and call any believer of Bedini technology BS. haha But, i am a persistent fellow... there is merit in this, free energy? i don't know about that but merit, yes.

So here is my nitty-gritty on what I feel will work (for me). A multifilar setup, 4-6 strands as to set up a train of pulses, buffered by capacitors, and a SMALL battery, BEFORE the circuit and MULTIPLE batteries charged simultaneously. I think this is gonna be the ticket. If I can get this to work on say 15-100 watts, THEN, I can turn around and use that energy to pulse my big bank AT NIGHT WHEN THE INVERTER is OFF. The following day, my big bank will not require as much current charging as normal and a daily desulphation will be taking place. The good sun days will result in shuntloading, in which the excess energy will go (eventually) into hydrogen production. If this works, and works well, there is actually some logic in the merit of a large system of exclusively radiant charged (by solar) systems; and this is that: if you have excess current in the day to provide electrolysis and H2 production for storage, you can get ahead of the game ANNUALLY. Alternative off grid living is all about your annual numbers. If there is a better way to charge your batteries such that they last much longer, charge a bit faster, and ultimately give you what you need daily without fu%$!g with your inverter... such that you have EXCESS current leftover... then by all means do it, and turn that current into H2.

Keep with it, your setup is comin' along.

[kcarring]

I might add that many here are far more experienced with solar bedini use than I so take everything I say with a newbie grain of salt, so to speak. It's only been in the last month that I had any faith in the circuit, at all, and i am beginning to realize it takes a heck of a lot longer than I ever imagined to give it the experimentation and respect, really, that it deserves.

There is also the consideration of if you are charging with just spikes and very very little current, some say the energy is not useful immediately for inductive loads... but... A. yoursetup I doubt you are going to be running much in the way of inductive loads, and B. I see no reason why if your inverter has a buffering capacitive bank between it, and the battery - why your final output (AC) would not work just fine, because the battery isn't going to see the inductive load, really?

[totoalas]

I might add that many here are far more experienced with solar bedini use than I so take everything I say with a newbie grain of salt, so to speak. It's only been in the last month that I had any faith in the circuit, at all, and i am beginning to realize it takes a heck of a lot longer than I ever imagined to give it the experimentation and respect, really, that it deserves.

There is also the consideration of if you are charging with just spikes and very very little current, some say the energy is not useful immediately for inductive loads... but... A. yoursetup I doubt you are going to be running much in the way of inductive loads, and B. I see no reason why if your inverter has a buffering capacitive bank between it, and the battery - why your final output (AC) would not work just fine, because the battery isn't going to see the inductive load, really?

Hi Kyle
thanks for the extensive details on the pros and Cons of a Bedini Charger
But just like you IM IN FOR A LONGER JOURNEY THAT WAS CUT CHORT
WITH THE INFORMATIVE THOUGHTS / IDEAS TO TINKER AND START WITH
THATS THE WAY I LIKE IT DIRECT TO THE POINT

Now I know where i stand and where to go on my Bedini Charger
I already have the tools 6 coiler charger batteries solar panels
only the WILL to do it with your guidance will lead me somewhere

Lasersaber had put the Joule ringer Lighting to use in his modest shop using solar panels
Hope I can do the same with what I have

thanks again for your support

totoalas

[blackchisel97]

@totoalas It is advice base on my experience; Use deep cycle batt's, if possible. Car batteries don't work well with solar since they're not storage batteries. They should not be taken down below 12.5V standing voltage while deep cycle can be discharged to 10.5 without any harm being done. Some solar controllers will not activate charging unless battery is under 10.5V. This is too low for regular LAB and will eventually cause them to fail. Learned this hard way.

V

[kcarring]

@totalas

Please be sure to read up lots on other users re: Bedini - as you will find contradictions to my statements; I'm sure. I am one of LEAST successful Bedini camp experimenters, I cannot stress there are WAY more successful individuals that I, too, am paying attention to. My thoughts are only my own, and I throw them out there in full hopes someone might set me straight too. I haven't had a ton of luck with strict spike charging; i won't lie! I'm sure others have. Like John K, minoly, MrTwally... there are some real advocates out there that'd make my Bedini knowledge look pretty pathetic. Once you get the Bedini running, try to scrounge up some big RV Batteries, Golf cart Batteries, Marine batteries, as Blackchisel says. Working with SLA's and Bedini spike charging has caused me nothing but grief, yet when I work with a conventional Deep Cycle, things make more sense, on the meters.

[totoalas]

Used UPS battteries

Hi Guys WELL NOTED AND THANKS FOR THE DIRECTION
In hotels where they used electric pallets trucks / vehicles / golf carts
they just throw those deep cycle batteries .. in my work where we are in the process of changing all ups batteries that are 5 yrs or more 3000 pcs....
Many other companies just throwing their batteries . ill be scavenging a lot

I will order maybe anither 200 w panel
all this will happen only after chinese new year since all shops are closed now for a month long holidays

the 5 w pane goes with a charge controller 10.5 on 18 v off so it continuosly flashing on a 12 v led lamp load plus charging output

the SOLID STATE RELAY from ZEROPOINT FUELdotcom , IS IT USED TO REPLACED A CHARGE CONTROL RELAY OR JUST THE RELAY INSIDE THE CONTROLLER???? theres a video of it in action


HAPPY EXPERIMENTING

totoalas

[kcarring]

I couldn't find the information: re: solid state relay. Perhaps he is just pulsing the battery using a relay instead of a PWM, to effectively control voltage? And if he went solid state, perhaps he went to a PWM or opto-coupler FET? Not sure. You can make your own shunt based charge controller quite easily. Hey... you talked about UPS's --- try to grab the actual box, of a larger one, too.. you will find lots of goodies in there. You can actually seperate and use the inverter from it, as well. Or just salvage parts. Cheers from Canada

[totoalas]

DC Sokid State Relay

Solid State Relay for solar charge controller - YouTube

the circuit can be found in zeropointfuel.com

youre right optocoupler and a mosfet

the UPS brand is APC MGE

thanks

totoalas