Ways to use solar panels, Can this be done??

[mountainman61]

Hello folks!


i have ask this question on a couple solar forums and have been rudely told there is no way to do it. I find this hard to believe though, so here we go...

I just purchased 3 kw of solar panels (because I got a crazy good deal)
Now, Since I can't afford to purchase enough batteries to use more than 1 kw of the panels, I'm left with 2kw of solar panels that I was told (on the solar forums) there was no way to use without batteries. Is this true???
We are talking off grid....no grid inverters.

I find it hard to believe there in no (economical) way to use at least some of the output from these panels during full sun. Anything would be better than nothing! Otherwise, the panels will just be sitting until I can afford more batteries.

I have a decent understanding of solar systems and I do understand why it won't work with regular controllers and inverters, I don't have a very good understanding of electronics though. but still it seems to me that there should be a fairly simple way to regulate the output of the panels to be usable without batteries.

I am talking about only using this during full sun/clear days.
I would be happy with a large loss....just something to allow me to get something from these panels until I can buy batteries.

Could I make several smaller systems and use old Sulfated Batteries to buffer the load? Use cheap pwm controllers and small inverters....Wouldn't cost much and seems doable?? I could always replace the batteries with new ones as I afford it. Maybe I'm just grabbing at straws???

Anyway, I am open to any and all suggestions
Thanks for reading!

[kcarring]

Never say Never

Hi!

Never say never, right? Your situation very much depends on where you are, your long term goals etc.

First off, possibly the simplest most economical thing you can do is preheat water with the energy, A bit of thinking it through, and your own your way - not much to that. This is what the elements look like but I wouldn't buy them there, quite frankly... I made my own, it works just fine.

Secondly, if you have some areas in the home that require fans a lot, or lighted basements, you can use them "live" for that. I managed to scrounge some large capacitors from my local utility company, they were just out spec for their use... but incredible for running LED lights. The addition of buck or boost circuitry can help out here, too... I am working on that right now. This way, the sun can go dim for a while, the capacitors being that they have linear voltage drop characteristics and can be be boosted "up" to voltage, or when full "bucked down". So they are sort of like a battery, but not really, more of an energy "buffer". Some people shunt energy to augment light to a greenhouse as well. Or to heat up a concoction of enviro-friendly antifreeze solution (the equivalent of antifreeze but friendlier) in containment below the greenhouse, to release as heat at night, in the cold months.

Thirdly, If you rally want to go to town, (but this involves investment), you can make hydrogen and store it. I suggest that if you do this, that you spend some time and build yourself a smaller HHO unit (except in your case, go separative right off the get go). This realm is dangerous enough that if you are not comfortable with this technology on a small scale, on your own... you probably shouldn't be going "big" without hands-on experience. There is a lot to it, and lots to monitor. It is doable though, I just met a fellow with 8 kW going into 100 lb. cylinders. He uses the hydrogen to make electricity if absolutely necessary in lean times, for cooking, and for heat.

Fourthly, I highly recommend you look into learning battery desulphation and recycle through batteries to get an additional bank going, as you will generally need at least one additional battery as a buffer between your panels and your load. Having said that, many small cheapo charge controllers have a load option to, direct running of loads.

Lastly you can do anything you dream of!! Recycle plastic into diesel. Purify water. Only your imagination limits you.

People might say that these things are wasted money, in the sense that eventually you will have a larger bank, but that is untrue, because once you have a larger bank, there will be times you STILL cannot use all of the available solar energy (the large bank is full) - and all of these devices become "shunt loads" - somewhere for the excess energy to go. As for the heat usages - once you put the extra PV to electrical usage, you can switch the other, heat related systems to pure solar heat collection. They will run even better!

There are options.
Message me privately anytime you like!
Cheers

[shawnnweed]

Hello folks!


i have ask this question on a couple solar forums and have been rudely told there is no way to do it. I find this hard to believe though, so here we go...

I just purchased 3 kw of solar panels (because I got a crazy good deal)
Now, Since I can't afford to purchase enough batteries to use more than 1 kw of the panels, I'm left with 2kw of solar panels that I was told (on the solar forums) there was no way to use without batteries. Is this true???
We are talking off grid....no grid inverters.

I find it hard to believe there in no (economical) way to use at least some of the output from these panels during full sun. Anything would be better than nothing! Otherwise, the panels will just be sitting until I can afford more batteries.

I have a decent understanding of solar systems and I do understand why it won't work with regular controllers and inverters, I don't have a very good understanding of electronics though. but still it seems to me that there should be a fairly simple way to regulate the output of the panels to be usable without batteries.

I am talking about only using this during full sun/clear days.
I would be happy with a large loss....just something to allow me to get something from these panels until I can buy batteries.

Could I make several smaller systems and use old Sulfated Batteries to buffer the load? Use cheap pwm controllers and small inverters....Wouldn't cost much and seems doable?? I could always replace the batteries with new ones as I afford it. Maybe I'm just grabbing at straws???

Anyway, I am open to any and all suggestions
Thanks for reading!

Here is a possible idea. It will be a barter system of skilled labor and free usage of your cells for equipment. If you have close friends that you could trust implicitly then you could invite them over to see your set up. Tell them that you could make the same set up for them, for a set period of time, that is, if they are willing to purchase said batteries and inverter on their own. Then when the contracted time is up your can retrieve your panels and their inverter / batteries as payment for free instillation and usage. Kinda like loaning out a car if they make the payments then getting it back slightly used but in running condition. The only drawback would be time and contracts.

Or you could trade a set up of solar cells (1KW) and free installation for the equipment you lack. A permanent barter / trade. That way you will have 2KW going into your house immediately with no wasted time or contracts. Just a thought. But either way they will not just be collecting dust.
,Shawn

[mountainman61]

Thanks so much for the ideas!


I do know how to restore old batteries, but I live in a very rural area and finding deep cycles to restore is difficult at best. I can get large farm equipment batteries occasionally (have 3 restored now) but they don't have many Ah's don't know why because they are huge!

I just checked with a local salvage company and...
What I can get, is good used car batteries for $20 ea. so I was thinking of say 10 or 12 of them to buffer the load? Were not talking storage here, just the ability to use the power that the panels produce during full sun. keeping the batteries full or nearly full charged all the time. Seems to me the batteries would last a very long time like this! Mainly what I want is the ability to do laundry and or pump water with this (excess)power. These task that can be done when the opportunity presents itself.

Here's what's unclear to me...Lots of folks talk about restoring old batteries and putting them to work in a system, but everything I have read, you shouldn't mix types or ages of batteries in a bank???? So, can I put 10 mixed car batteries in a bank and it work? Considering they will rarely be discharged even a little bit, will it work?

[Savvypro]

There is a guy who sells plans on how to build a pedal power generator. He shows you how to run things directly off of the generator, using a suppercap and an inverter (converts the power directly from the suppercap). He has a clip where hep runs a CRT TV off of the power generated from peddling:

David Butcher: Ultimate Pedal Powered Television

With the spare capacity you could setup a couple of individual panels to do a similar thing.

[blackchisel97]

Thanks so much for the ideas!


I do know how to restore old batteries, but I live in a very rural area and finding deep cycles to restore is difficult at best. I can get large farm equipment batteries occasionally (have 3 restored now) but they don't have many Ah's don't know why because they are huge!

I just checked with a local salvage company and...
What I can get, is good used car batteries for $20 ea. so I was thinking of say 10 or 12 of them to buffer the load? Were not talking storage here, just the ability to use the power that the panels produce during full sun. keeping the batteries full or nearly full charged all the time. Seems to me the batteries would last a very long time like this! Mainly what I want is the ability to do laundry and or pump water with this (excess)power. These task that can be done when the opportunity presents itself.

Here's what's unclear to me...Lots of folks talk about restoring old batteries and putting them to work in a system, but everything I have read, you shouldn't mix types or ages of batteries in a bank???? So, can I put 10 mixed car batteries in a bank and it work? Considering they will rarely be discharged even a little bit, will it work?

Car batteries also referred to as "starting batteries" are not the same as storage batteries. Their job is to supply high A/ short period of time charge to turn the engine. This is the very reason they're getting damaged due to the constant abuse ( bent and shorted cells). Farm equipment or marine batteries are not much different. Two golf cart/fork lift batteries rated at 225 -250Ah will surpass battery bank made of ten 100Ah starting batteries. Supplying 150A even for short period of time is way beyond C20 rating. During the cold season battery capacity gets down to 40% but it is still expected to crank the engine with molasses viscosity oil.
Deep cycle batteries used in electric vehicles such as golf carts, forklifts etc. don't get violated like that. Also, they can be discharged to 10.5V without any harm done. Mixing different batteries to make a bank isn't a good idea. Even when they're all the same Ah they should be restored first to make sure that one or two will not drag behind because their internal impedance is higher. Maybe there is a golf course somewhere in your area? They trade poor performing batteries for new ones and get a discount for returned core but may sell those batteries for their core price. It is usually 10 - 20$ max.
If you have a local newspaper or a classifieds board it may be worth to place the ad that you're looking for used/poorly charging forklift/golfcart batt's.

Just my 2c
V

[mountainman61]

Car batteries also referred to as "starting batteries" are not the same as storage batteries. Their job is to supply high A/ short period of time charge to turn the engine. This is the very reason they're getting damaged due to the constant abuse ( bent and shorted cells). Farm equipment or marine batteries are not much different. Two golf cart/fork lift batteries rated at 225 -250Ah will surpass battery bank made of ten 100Ah starting batteries. Supplying 150A even for short period of time is way beyond C20 rating. During the cold season battery capacity gets down to 40% but it is still expected to crank the engine with molasses viscosity oil.
Deep cycle batteries used in electric vehicles such as golf carts, forklifts etc. don't get violated like that. Also, they can be discharged to 10.5V without any harm done. Mixing different batteries to make a bank isn't a good idea. Even when they're all the same Ah they should be restored first to make sure that one or two will not drag behind because their internal impedance is higher. Maybe there is a golf course somewhere in your area? They trade poor performing batteries for new ones and get a discount for returned core but may sell those batteries for their core price. It is usually 10 - 20$ max.
If you have a local newspaper or a classifieds board it may be worth to place the ad that you're looking for used/poorly charging forklift/golfcart batt's.

Just my 2c
V

blackchisel,

I'm well aware of the difference in starting and deep cycle batteries, but I just cannot get deep cycles in my remote area. The only option I have for deep cycle is new.

You are kinda missing the goal here too, I am not wanting storage...(I have that in a separate system already) I only want a way buffer the panels output so I can use power when there is full sun.

Or....Am I looking at this wrong... the total Ah of the used starting batteries may not be a bargain at $200. after all???

I'm just looking for a cheap way to use 2Kw of panels without a spending a fortune on batteries!

[mountainman61]

There is a guy who sells plans on how to build a pedal power generator. He shows you how to run things directly off of the generator, using a suppercap and an inverter (converts the power directly from the suppercap). He has a clip where hep runs a CRT TV off of the power generated from peddling:

David Butcher: Ultimate Pedal Powered Television

With the spare capacity you could setup a couple of individual panels to do a similar thing.

Thanks for the reply!

I had thought of a super cap, but I'm don't know enough to set it up.
If I could use them to buffer the output from a controller to an inverter this would be great! Anyone know how to do this or if it is affordable?
Again, I'm not looking for storage....just ways to utilize power from 2Kw panels.

[celinaaniston86]

Well, there are many ways to use solar power such ways are heat the house through passive solar design or an active solar heating system, generate your own electricity, heat water in the house or swimming pool, light the house both indoors and outdoors, dry your clothes & use a clothesline to reduce the energy consumed by your clothing dryer.

Sump Pumps

[Farmhand]

Hi mountainman61, There are a few things you could do in my opinion.

For easier methods skip to 3.

1. Use a capacitor charged by the panels to run a step-down pulsing circuit.
This would require in it's simplest form one make and break device, a couple of
capacitors and a transformer. Simply put the capacitor is charged by the solar
panels, the higher voltage side of the transformer (winding with most turns) is
connected by one side of the winding with the positive of the cap and the other
connected to the make and break device then the make and break device
connected to the negative of the capacitor, the less turns winding would be
connected to another capacitor with a rectifier (diode or diode bridge) the
resulting output capacitor voltage would be a fraction of the input depending
on the turns ratio. Alternatively the transformer could be used to step up the
output voltage to a level suitable for other devices. I assume you wanted 12 volts
or so but maybe I assumed wrong. With this method without a load the
capacitor voltage would tend to increase. Maybe a smaller battery or over
voltage protection can be employed easily. The circuit would also recondition
sulfated batteries if wanted.

The make and break device can be a transistor or a vibrating relay maybe a
good way for you. Others have more experience with vibrating relays than me.

2. A better way would be to it would be to build an inverter circuit able to run
from the voltage of the panels and do a similar thing but with square wave AC
as the output.

Seems the solar forum people aren't very imaginative. What a shame that is.

It does kinda depend on what you want to do with the power.

3. If you take two 12 volt light bulbs and connect them in series you could light
them to some brightness if interior lighting is required in the daytime.

Therefore if you take one 12 volt light bulb and put a 12 volt load in series
with that, the bulb will regulate the load. Higher current bulbs will allow the
series load more power. The bulb power will be wasted unless the light or heat
is useful. Basically bulbs can be used to regulate loads. Other similar things
can also be used in the same way a resistor for example the load current is
restricted with this method though. Even a 24 volt bulb or 110 would allow some current to flow.

Cheers

[bolt1]

Large new solar panels are now basically 24v but operate around 29v and typically 250w each. Take 4 panels wire in series will give you about 116v DC which is enough to power most switch mode power supplies including 500w ATX computer supplies which most will run on DC as well as AC.

So for like 20 bucks each and two or three ATX supplies you can get access to 1000w regulated 12v for running pumps, lights, fans, cooler boxes and even add a small inverter to get your 120/240v AC and do all this without expensive charge controllers or batteries. Most TV's will run perfectly on DC as well as AC as they all now have switched power supplies. Lots of things around the home will probably work just fine on 116v DC if they have a switched power supply including phone chargers, some new microwave ovens, routers and modems, most tool and drill chargers, PC's, printers etc but you need to check carefully as old style transformers of course can not work and maybe destroyed!

116v DC will run almost all Laptop power supplies directly also and can be stacked several in parallel for 90 watts each @ 19v DC

Laptop supplies do make really good car/ deep cycle battery chargers but make sure you disconnect them once you hit 14.8 v

BTW 24v panels CAN and WILL charge a 12v battery direct raw connection but you will lose half the WATTS as the battery will drag the PV voltage down to 12v but can easy over charge the battery. To do this properly you need either a 24v battery system with PWM controller OR for 12v system you really need MPPT charge controller of least 50 AMPS which is going to cost $hit loads for a large >1kw system.

For a redneck system plenty of old car batteries will still work as a buffer and should still have enough capacity to run plenty of LED lights overnight.

[romerouk]

200W-1000W Grid Tie Micro Inverter Converter for Home Solar Panel System

Features:

Direct connection to the solar panels (No need of connecting the battery)

AC 0 angle with high precision auto-detection

Automatically adapt to different load power factor

Pure Sine Wave Output

Power Automatically Locked (APL)

Maximum Power Point Tracking (MPPT)

Synchronous High-frequency Modulation

Automatic Sensing of Solar Luminosity

Constant Current, Constant Power

Current Limit Protection

Realized Multiple Machines Stack

High-Frequency High Conversion Rate

Automatically shut down the output when a fault occurred to the grid

Check the link below:

200W-1000W Grid Tie Micro Inverter Converter for Home Solar Panel System w/MPPT | eBay

Regards,
Romero

[PamelaSambora]

Well, in general small panels provide less than a volt while several cells in sequence + to - will provide more voltage.

Adelaide Solar Power

[Jeff Pearson]

get a charge controller that supports a diversion load, divert extra power to a water heater element. standard solar practice

[Hrothgar]

romerouk has it right

A grid tie converter is the way to go if your on grid already. No batteries just wire the panels to the inverter and plug the inverter into the wall. it will slow down your meter thus lowering your bill. You can look up your power company's policy and regulations on customer generated power.

ps warning they might expect you to jump through hoops depending on your area.