My Motors got me to Tap into Radiant Energy

[prochiro]

PWM Testing

Bob
Johns first introduction of version 1 is on post 839 and the basic circuit has not changed in version 2,(they are the same). The testing measures you so eagerly seek are on post 839 and some helpful hints are scattered all over but a good one is post 1087. Please let us know how it is coming along. Remember when I told you I had problems with section D, I had connection errors. I am still trying to find out about opto's as the DC to DC converter causes distortion of signal.
Dana

[GlenWV]

Js - Pwm

@John Stone:
Thank you very much for the pwm circuit. I appreciate your efforts and contributions. I have finally downloaded & printed a readable copy and will do a build soon. (took me a while to figure out how to get it printed.)

I have eight IXFN48N50 FETs salvaged from battery chargers installed on a heat sink and plan on testing them with a 'known good' oscillator/coil setup.

Next, I plan on testing them using my large Bedini SG coil. (117 strands of #22 gauge wire at around 310 feet in length.) The coil is directly wound around an iron core. If the results of this test are good, then I may rewind the coil as an air core. (I'm rebuilding the circuit anyway after stumbling into the thing and smoking all the base resistors. There is enough wire there to allow testing series/parallel groupings of wire to get into the 1.5 ohm range.)

My question: Should I use a separate driver for each FET? I'm considering using a separate opto for each.

FET datasheet: http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/93001.pdf

@All: I have a few 120/240 to 48VDC LaMarche chargers, some working/some not, which experimenters are welcome to. These are heavy, so it would be best to drop by and pick one up. These are located in the Charleston, WV area. (BobF, I'm saving a working unit for you.)

glen

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

Glen,

I'm done with the Canada trip and saw Bearden, so aside from my building a wood heater and electronic stuff I'm clear to come by you. Let me watch the weather and get back to you.

Mostly I need good deep cycle batteries around 215Ah size.

Thanks,

Bob

[JohnStone]

Hi,
sorry I did not visit this thread on a reguar basis.

Please understand that I try to help very beginners and advanced builders too. You need to understand the concepts in order to advance with your knowledge.
1.
Please focus on generator first. Test it with a biggerr timing cap first (block B) in order to get it running with LED as test equipment - if you own no scope.
All following drivers were tuned for simlicity and for very beginners regarding that bloody coil to be pulsed.
We need to exactly know that the generator does well, before taking any further steps. (block A...D)

BTW: At driver circuit E3 do not connect pin 3 to 7 - sorry for that error!

2.
Add the recently posted dedicated 555 driver to a pair of FETs. This frees you from having a powerful driver being active along too long wires. And it will free you from using a terribly fast optocoupler. The 555 does its own timing when triggered.

3. Use massive GND wires and joion them at FET source.

If you get this setup running you have learned a lot of basic electronic. And you have the basis in order to try more expensive components in your known operating setup.

4. After that you can add a galvanic separation by optos, opto drivers or other means like ADUM. I am so sorry if you kill expensive components prematurely.

But please do not build oversimplified jams of components but strategic blocks you can handle yourself.
JohnS

[JohnStone]

@John Stone:
Thank you very much for the pwm circuit. I appreciate your efforts and contributions. I have finally downloaded & printed a readable copy and will do a build soon. (took me a while to figure out how to get it printed.)

I have eight IXFN48N50 FETs salvaged from battery chargers installed on a heat sink and plan on testing them with a 'known good' oscillator/coil setup.

Next, I plan on testing them using my large Bedini SG coil. (117 strands of #22 gauge wire at around 310 feet in length.) The coil is directly wound around an iron core. If the results of this test are good, then I may rewind the coil as an air core. (I'm rebuilding the circuit anyway after stumbling into the thing and smoking all the base resistors. There is enough wire there to allow testing series/parallel groupings of wire to get into the 1.5 ohm range.)

My question: Should I use a separate driver for each FET? I'm considering using a separate opto for each.

FET datasheet: http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/93001.pdf

@All: I have a few 120/240 to 48VDC LaMarche chargers, some working/some not, which experimenters are welcome to. These are heavy, so it would be best to drop by and pick one up. These are located in the Charleston, WV area. (BobF, I'm saving a working unit for you.)

glen

Very clear answer - it depends
- It is essential to have short wires between driver and FET. If you drive a single FET it can sit directly at your generator output.
- If you have 2 FETs back to back on a heat sink it will be advantageous to feed both of them by one driver (see my 555 circuit). But never drive more than 3 FETs side by side on one heat sink (because of wire length)
- If you do not obey the hint above you might get oscillations and this is a case outside the FET specs. They do switch much more faster than your data sheet tells you - but not in a controlled manner. You will scare away OU if AC oscillations!
- If you go much higher in speed like the concept I discussed with bobfrench above you never will be able to drive 2 FETs as fast as the dedicated ns driver can do. We talk there of 5 ns and less. But that is a Ferrari and we talk at the moment of a low end car.

- Please understand that switching speed is essential even if you operate your setup at 1 Hz pulses.

- It will be no problem to drive several 555-driver from one generator because the 555 will do its own timing after being triggered. No destortion from wires between generator and FET drivers. But please make those wires of same length and twist dedicated pairs with drive/GND wire to each 555.

- If you want to save your generator add a 555 driver at output and drive the rest of 555 drivers living in vecinity of their dedicated FET(s)

- Your FETs IXFN48N50 are nice, not terrible fast (250ns) - go with them!

Ask if something not clear!
John

EDIT: If you decide to drive your setup with no external connection (like PC ....) you might decide to use a spare socket charger for PSU in order to feed generator / FET driver. Many chargers for mobiles are of 5V type. You need to add a cluster of caps only in order to get nice 5V feed. But you will easily get 9V or 12V socket chargers as well.
Use a battery for power to the coil. This way you have a nice galvanic separation to the rest of the world (min 1000V / 1 minute minimum). Then you can shift the opto separation for later use.
PLEASE decide to make the source Pin of FET as central GND and make MASSIVE GND connection in Star shape. If you have several FET cluster connect the source pins with a bus bar as extended central GND point.
In case you diecide to make real earth connection (some setups work better) connect your earth to this central GND as well.

[JohnStone]

@ John Stone
I have been going over the JStone- PWM circuit and was wondering how the circuit protection ideas we talked about before are standing. We talked about DC-DC and Opto's and such. How and where should good protection be built in or has the need for them been deleted as of the V2 release? If you have already posted a answer, just return location or rough date. I tested a dc-dc vbsd 1-s12-s15-sip after the pwm and before the fets and signal went back to a saw tooth although volts went up from a 9volt source to 14 volts after that IC, whats up with that?
Dana

Think and design your setup in function blocks! We are not artists but serious workers!

The generator shall drive the opto input (s). You need to be shure that your generator output can drive some 30mA for an opto LED. If you are in doubt add a 555 driver for LED driver.

Not shure how you connected the DC/DC PSU. It should be connected AFTER the isolation in order to feed the opto output and the FET driver.
Some opto drives have more than a LED at input and thus need a primary power feed on same GND like generator (consult datasheet). And they need a secondary power feed in all cases in order to process the signals to the FET (same GND like FET-source pin)

It will be advantageous if you learn to draw basic schematics. Then we can communicate much more effectively.

@ALL:
Like UFO I ask you kindly to start with simple blocks you can handle and learn later on to run advanced circuits.
JohnS

[GlenWV]

Very clear answer - it depends
- It is essential to have short wires between driver and FET. If you drive a single FET it can sit directly at your generator output.
- If you have 2 FETs back to back on a heat sink it will be advantageous to feed both of them by one driver (see my 555 circuit). But never drive more than 3 FETs side by side on one heat sink (because of wire length)
- If you do not obey the hint above you might get oscillations and this is a case outside the FET specs. They do switch much more faster than your data sheet tells you - but not in a controlled manner. You will scare away OU if AC oscillations!
- If you go much higher in speed like the concept I discussed with bobfrench above you never will be able to drive 2 FETs as fast as the dedicated ns driver can do. We talk there of 5 ns and less. But that is a Ferrari and we talk at the moment of a low end car.

- Please understand that switching speed is essential even if you operate your setup at 1 Hz pulses.

- It will be no problem to drive several 555-driver from one generator because the 555 will do its own timing after being triggered. No destortion from wires between generator and FET drivers. But please make those wires of same length and twist dedicated pairs with drive/GND wire to each 555.

- If you want to save your generator add a 555 driver at output and drive the rest of 555 drivers living in vecinity of their dedicated FET(s)

- Your FETs IXFN48N50 are nice, not terrible fast (250ns) - go with them!

Ask if something not clear!
John

EDIT: If you decide to drive your setup with no external connection (like PC ....) you might decide to use a spare socket charger for PSU in order to feed generator / FET driver. Many chargers for mobiles are of 5V type. You need to add a cluster of caps only in order to get nice 5V feed. But you will easily get 9V or 12V socket chargers as well.
Use a battery for power to the coil. This way you have a nice galvanic separation to the rest of the world (min 1000V / 1 minute minimum). Then you can shift the opto separation for later use.
PLEASE decide to make the source Pin of FET as central GND and make MASSIVE GND connection in Star shape. If you have several FET cluster connect the source pins with a bus bar as extended central GND point.
In case you diecide to make real earth connection (some setups work better) connect your earth to this central GND as well.

@JS:

Thank you for your insight and suggestions - I appreciate it.

I have a box full of wall plug power supplies of different voltages available, along with several 6 volt LABs with taps atop each cell.

Short wires: Got it.

Not more than 3 FETs per heatsink. - - ok, can do.

Multiple 555 timers from one generator, wires equal in length and litzed. - ok, sweet.

Battery for coil: My source banks are 200 AH and 470 AH LABs connected for whatever voltage is desired. (Another 10k AH sitting in the driveway.)

External ground rods: Got'em

Heavy wires: Generally, I use #14, #12, or #10 solid copper for interconnections to devices and #6, #2, or #1/0 welding cable for source and load connections. Good enough?? (Folks often say 'use heavy wire', but might consider #14 heavy. They might also consider 240 volts as 'high voltage'.)

Again, I appreciate your input and thank you for it. (Now to saw up some heatsink material and figure a way to mount control boards Very close to the FETs.)

glen

[GlenWV]

Glen,

I'm done with the Canada trip and saw Bearden, so aside from my building a wood heater and electronic stuff I'm clear to come by you. Let me watch the weather and get back to you.

Mostly I need good deep cycle batteries around 215Ah size.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob,

The "Great Storm" has passed and the weather is pretty much back to normal, so pick your day and come on up. I'm home Saturday thru Monday.

You are welcome to about all the 200AH LABs that you can carry. They aren't the best, but charging them with radiant should extend their life.

Also, don't forget to save some room for stuff from my 'junk piles'. There's several transformers and stuff around.

Shoot an email to my Yahoo account, or call, and I'll be watching for you.

glen

[JohnStone]

Heavy wires: Generally, I use #14, #12, or #10 solid copper for interconnections to devices and #6, #2, or #1/0 welding cable for source and load connections. Good enough?? (Folks often say 'use heavy wire', but might consider #14 heavy. They might also consider 240 volts as 'high voltage'.)

Again, I appreciate your input and thank you for it. (Now to saw up some heatsink material and figure a way to mount control boards Very close to the FETs.)

glen

As bus bar at FETs (source pins) I would decide to apply several times AWG14 stranded because of less HF reactance.

For leads between driver and FET (source -> GND and output -> gate) #14...#16.

Add a cap cluster to every driver (SHORT wires) between VCC / GND: 10nF ceramic / 100nF ceramic / 1F electrolitic / 10µF electrolitic. Bold ones are a MUST the others optional. Those clusters can deliver several amps instantly if required (for short time of course)
I used #18 here because I had it around. You can "suspend" your control board on the massive wires only!

I stress "heavy wires" because on Youtube we see lots of replications with those tiny baby aligator clips along tiny baby wires. Those wires become serious HF components and might nullify your effects expected.

Salvage some PC PSUs. They contain nice heatsinks and ready mounted FETs / diodes

[JohnStone]

Error

If you find anywhere my suggestion to use a 555 as driver - please DO NOT connect pin 7 to 3. Let pin 7 open.
In theory it should do well but at my setup the 555 died suddenly.
Sorry for this error

[JohnStone]

... So far my only affordable option for the moment is car starters and I'm not sure that is the direction I want to go. I'm going to go around looking in a couple days to figure that situation out though.

....

Hi Matt,
starter motors are usually 4 pole / 4 brush design. Unfortunately they have a short shaft. The stator is heavy wire and needs to be rewound as well (i suppose)
Did you look for radiator fan motors from cars?
Did you consider motors from washing mashines? Niko8K processed one in the other thread.
John

[codeboundfuture]

car starter motor

Hi Matt,
starter motors are usually 4 pole / 4 brush design. Unfortunately they have a short shaft. The stator is heavy wire and needs to be rewound as well (i suppose)
Did you look for radiator fan motors from cars?
Did you consider motors from washing mashines? Niko8K processed one in the other thread.
John

Hi John,

I'm afraid you are right about the car starter I have not found one that is suitable.
The appliance repair shop I went to said they used brushless motors now mostly and we took a look at them and I couldn't find a commutator, although it was really hard to see inside it.

Thanks for the tip on the radiator fan, I have one already, just have to get to it and pull it apart to see if that will work.

cheers,
matt

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

JohnS,

Hello...it's been a while, but I assembled the Frequency Generatr and am tryin g to test it. Section A gives 4.99v both with and without the 100 ohm load. Section B measures. 76mA at open J2 and the pot varies from .15mA to 2.32mA. I get 2.28mA across the 100nF cap, but I get no frequency. If I place just the Neg DVM probe on the neg input it reads a steady 60Hz, but when I also place the Pos probe on J2 it goes to 0.

HELP.

Thanks for everything. Dispite the setbacks I am enjoying the build and am so ready to use it!

Bob

[JohnStone]

Hi Bob!Sorry for your circuit being not operable. If you don not know how to proceed firtehr you need to question all items you vote to be OK. Now let's look in detail.

Prepare test:

• Open J3
  Close J2
• Open connection 1/7
• Add a pullup to 5V of about 10K to pin 7
• Add a 100µf in parallel to 10µF timing cap C5
• Short circuit the timing caps 10/100µF
• Open the connection pin1 to pin1
• Add apullup 10K to pin1

Static test:

• Measure pin 3 = 2.5V
• Measure Pin 5 = 2,3V
• Measure pin 1 = high
• Measure pin 7 = high

Explanation:
A comparator will switch at output at following conditions:

• Pin + excceeds pin - -> output low / high transition
• Pin -exceeds pin + -> output high / low transisiton
• and vice versa ....

Dynamic test:

• Measure pin 1 high
• Open short circuit at cap 100/10µF
• Observe pin 1 transiton high low
• Apply short circuit at cap 100/10µF
• Measure pin 7 high
• Open short circuit at cap 100/10µF
• Observe pin 7 transisiton high low

If you do not get the behaviour predicted change LM 393 IC - it might be defective.
If still not OK check all connections.
Please check the procedure above. I can't give more advice just now.

If OK get out the pullup at pin 7 and 1 and connect R5 and pin 1/7 -> you will get frequency at pin 7.
If not -> ask. But please be more specific in where you measured i.e resistor reference / IC pin .....

JohnS

[Peculian]

Hello dear,

Who are you addressing? ...



What connections?, what motors...no motors here... ?



So, take it back to who?...LOL...to UFO?

Sorry but I believe you confused threads...is ok, but please delete message and I will delete mine...

Thanks


Ufopolitics

It is a spam post.
I will delete this post of mine, once some of the active guys here and me all together report this to the admin & Mods here
Regards,