3 Battery Generating System

[Michael John Nunnerley]

No not missed it, found it

Wow Mike all I can say is some people march to the tune of a different drum ! I know you to be one of the sharpest pencils in the box but I cant help but feel you’ve missed this target by a country mile!. I'm just a tenderfoot here so I really have no room to comment but three different batteries not only different but different types?
You must have an idea at the back of your mind and I know you well enough to consider it probably works , however it sounds nothing like what I’ve just seen and these guys are describing and doing.
It'll all come out in the wash !!
Best wishes Duncan

Duncan, different batteries maybe, but the chemistry is the same, all I was doing was proving a point that I had in my mind that chemistry and using electrons twice is what could be giving the results.

All the effects were the same as stated, just on a small scale. If you require to charge your feed battery with some power from the circuit it is powering, then that circuit would have to be pulsed, it would have to have an OFF PERIOD for the charge to go back. But now if part of the chemistry in the battery changes, as I have shown, then the tables change, the charge can take place while you have a straight DC current, the reversed battery is in charge mode and accepts electrons to charge, even though they have passed through a motor and other load they have not been given up and lost in a normal circuit from positive to negative.

Electrons are not lost until they have completed the circuit, and in this case the completed circuit is after the battery which is in charge mode "can be batt3 or some of the cells in the run battery, the later will depend on the condition of batt:3 and possibly the type of battery, but all types should work, just some better than others.

The good thing is you have gained energy by using those electrons twice rather than once. As Dr. Stiffler has once said, you can only use electrons twice to give a gain and only in IONIC CONDUCTION, this is what happens in batteries.

Mike

P.S. you need the battery 3 in charge recieving mode and have a potencial difference in the circuit for this to work, I do it all the time in electrolysis, but my battery 3 is a supercap of 10F

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Forgot to say

Forgot to say, the maximum gain would theoreticly be 200% but there are always losses, so lets say 185%, a gain YES, but is explained as I have and breaks no laws, it is chemistry and physics used in a special way.

Mike

[Turion]

Michael John Nunnerley,

So even if the gain is only 185% you get the motor to run for free, and if that motor can be connected to a lenz free generator......

That should still make this a viable system, don't you think?

Dave

[Duncan]

bout this drum ... I like the tempo

Forgot to say, the maximum gain would theoreticly be 200% but there are always losses, so lets say 185%, a gain YES, but is explained as I have and breaks no laws, it is chemistry and physics used in a special way.

Mike

I think there's much more to come Mike, but I'm sure no ones going to bite the hand that feeds. If there's a demonstrable theory that gives us a gain we'll grab that with both hands!

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Michael John Nunnerley,

So even if the gain is only 185% you get the motor to run for free, and if that motor can be connected to a lenz free generator......

That should still make this a viable system, don't you think?

Dave

Straight answer is yes, but there are tech: problems as you have found and I do not know how the batteries will stand up to time. It is like charge discharge all the time and rapid "can be seen by the iratic rise and fall of voltage I saw on one of your videos, also seen here when things are setup.

I am drawing out a slightly different approach so as you can see very easly what is happening and theoreticly should work, just trying to get rid of the bad battery which is one of the tech: problems, there has to be an ionic bridge there

Mike

[Duncan]

Battery ... cap

I seem to remember that south African system (which now seems to have dropped out of sight)
reported battery troubles.
Final Update on South African Fuel-Free Generator Before...
However mike although not available In Europe (as far as I know) they do make a hybrid battery/capacitor in the USA
BatCap by Xstatic Home Page I think It is intended for high power Audio use … however it might be able to resolve the situation … looks a pretty price though!

[Michael John Nunnerley]

This is an excert from my web site

Part 1 Electrolytic Cells
Voltaic cells “batteries” are driven by a spontaneous chemical reaction that produces an electric
current through an outside circuit. These cells are important because they are the basis
for the batteries that fuel modern society. But they aren't the only kind of
electrochemical cell. The reverse reaction in each case is non-spontaneous and
requires electrical energy to occur.
The general form of the reaction can be written as:
Spontaneous ---------->
Reactants >< Products + Electrical Energy
<----------- Non spontaneous
It is possible to construct a cell that does work on a chemical system by driving an electric
current through the system. These cells are called electrolytic cells, and operate through
electrolysis. Electrolysis is used to drive an oxidation-reduction reaction in a direction in which
it does not occur spontaneously by driving an electric current through the system while doing
work on the chemical system itself, and therefore is non-spontaneous.
Electrolytic cells, like galvanic cells, are composed of two half-cells--one is a reduction half-cell,
the other is an oxidation half-cell. The direction of electron flow in electrolytic cells, however,
may be reversed from the direction of spontaneous electron flow in galvanic cells, but the
definition of both cathode and anode remain the same, where reduction takes place at the cathode
and oxidation occurs at the anode. Because the directions of both half-reactions have been
reversed, the sign, but not the magnitude, of the cell potential has been reversed.
Electrolytic cells are very similar to voltaic (galvanic) cells in the sense that both require a salt
bridge, both have a cathode and anode side, and both have a consistent flow of electrons from the
anode to the cathode. However, there are also striking differences between the two cells.
Electrochemical cell (Galvanic Cell)a. and Electrolytic cell b.
a. A Galvanic cell converts chemical energy into
electrical energy.
b. An electrolytic cell converts electrical energy
into chemical energy.
a. The redox reaction is spontaneous and is
responsible for the production of electrical energy
b. The redox reaction is not spontaneous and
electrical energy has to be supplied to initiate the reaction
a. The two half-cells are set up in different
containers, being connected through the salt
bridge or porous partition.
b. Both the electrodes are placed in a same
container in the solution of molten electrolyte.
a. The anode is negative and cathode is the positive electrode. The reaction at the anode is
oxidation and that at the cathode is reduction.
b. The anode is positive and cathode is the
negative electrode. The reaction at the anode
is oxidation and that at the cathode is
reduction.
a. The electrons are supplied by the species getting
oxidized. They move from anode to the cathode
in the external circuit.
b. The external battery supplies the electrons.
They enter through the cathode and come out
through the anode.

I have posted this here incase anyone has not read it. I advise that you read all on my web site "I do not get paid for people going to the site, it is all free".

The link is on my Centraflow systems thread.

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

I seem to remember that south African system (which now seems to have dropped out of sight)
reported battery troubles.
Final Update on South African Fuel-Free Generator Before...
However mike although not available In Europe (as far as I know) they do make a hybrid battery/capacitor in the USA
BatCap by Xstatic Home Page I think It is intended for high power Audio use … however it might be able to resolve the situation … looks a pretty price though!

Five "5" 10F supercaps @2.7v from Maxwell @ around 5 euros should give a battery of 2F @ 12v+ 20 pounds +-

Mike

[Turion]

The only two things I want to be clear on here is that I have seen this setup continuously run (for 7 days on end, both day and night) loads off the inverter that far, far, far exceed the 180% output of two 18 amp hour batteries. Second, I put 18 discharged batteries in parallel with battery three, and it charged them up in less than an hour. So it is capable of large amounts of power in a short period of time, provided it is batteries you are trying to charge. And I know that two 18 amp hour batteries ....even at 180% of capacity...did not contain near what is necessary to charge up 18 (actually 18 pairs of six volt batteries) that were over 100 amp hours each. Just those two incidents that I was a personal witness to indicate to me that there is something more to this.

HOWEVER, I will be happy just to get the free use of an electric motor out of the setup that can hook to a generator, as I believe most people would.

I can also say from personal experience that when you get a setup that is causing your primaries to go up, it seems to raise the voltage limits on the primary batteries

I would conclude with this...

Until we replicate what I saw with my original setup, we have what we have. We should develop what we know works to its fullest potential no matter what path it takes us down, and if you are traveling that road I will be right beside you. But that doesn't mean I won't take weekends off to research the original circuit until I replicate the results I saw with my first setup. I saw what I saw, and nothing will ever convince me that I did not. I realize that until someone else, or possibly MANY someone else's see it too, I am to be considered full of hot air, and I can live with that. This is too important to let feelings get in the way of results.

Dave

[shylo]

capacitor connections

It all has to do with how you connect the capacitors.
I've tried multiple connections,two connections in two different locations....
Make a difference...Same connection but at a different location.....different result...
Need to look at it like a ball ,not a piece of paper
When its' a dead battery, it's a capacitor, it will take charge ,but not hold it
When it's a dead battery ,that accumulates charge, it's not a capacitor
Still trying to find the right balance
shylo

[Duncan]

Balls!

It all has to do with how you connect the capacitors.
I've tried multiple connections,two connections in two different locations....
Make a difference...Same connection but at a different location.....different result...
Need to look at it like a ball ,not a piece of paper
When its' a dead battery, it's a capacitor, it will take charge ,but not hold it
When it's a dead battery ,that accumulates charge, it's not a capacitor
Still trying to find the right balance
shylo

Hi Shylo .. can I take it that using capacitors you have managed to get into what many here call “The zone” ? and just to amplify on that I mean a very different cause and effect to that described by Mike. If you’ve managed to get into that state where you gradually apply load and the motor which has only just managed to start under its own steam (and in your case) the capacitors just reflect more and more power back at you Almost on a Fibonacci scale? If you’ve had that effect with caps (if even briefly) please give a bit more detail on the caps. size voltage ect
strange you should use bouncing balls as a description I used exactly the same term to David yesterday

[Turion]

shylo,
I woud definitely be interested in ANY success with caps. I've never had a successful run with a cap in the third position, so I'm very curious. I am ALSO curious as to what you meant by "same connection but at a different location" .

Can you give us a schematic of how you are including the caps in the system?

Dave

[Michael John Nunnerley]

The only two things I want to be clear on here is that I have seen this setup continuously run (for 7 days on end, both day and night) loads off the inverter that far, far, far exceed the 180% output of two 18 amp hour batteries. Second, I put 18 discharged batteries in parallel with battery three, and it charged them up in less than an hour. So it is capable of large amounts of power in a short period of time, provided it is batteries you are trying to charge. And I know that two 18 amp hour batteries ....even at 180% of capacity...did not contain near what is necessary to charge up 18 (actually 18 pairs of six volt batteries) that were over 100 amp hours each. Just those two incidents that I was a personal witness to indicate to me that there is something more to this.

HOWEVER, I will be happy just to get the free use of an electric motor out of the setup that can hook to a generator, as I believe most people would.

I can also say from personal experience that when you get a setup that is causing your primaries to go up, it seems to raise the voltage limits on the primary batteries

I would conclude with this...

Until we replicate what I saw with my original setup, we have what we have. We should develop what we know works to its fullest potential no matter what path it takes us down, and if you are traveling that road I will be right beside you. But that doesn't mean I won't take weekends off to research the original circuit until I replicate the results I saw with my first setup. I saw what I saw, and nothing will ever convince me that I did not. I realize that until someone else, or possibly MANY someone else's see it too, I am to be considered full of hot air, and I can live with that. This is too important to let feelings get in the way of results.

Dave

Hi Dave, you maybe right, I can only say what I have seen and can confirm from tests "only done by me on my setup".

Battery chemistry is both simple and rather mistifying at times, I also did not take ANY consideration for the motor as a possible source of charge. I did scope it to see any spikes on the motor and as expected there were, but even this can change depending on the motor used and if it was pulsed. Pulsing gives a bigger spike as there is the off period well defined, and my motor is small but powerful as it is a capstan drive for a VCR, has good torque.

I wish I had your exact setup that I could do the same here, but I don't, and I am not going out to buy all I need to do that as I have a budget for my work only I'm affraid.

The problem is if there is such a narrow area to make this work, we could have big problems to keep a working system running without problems, that is why I am looking to see what it is that is causing this. My tests are one of the things that are happening, which is good, but as you say there seems to be something else as well, it is finding that something else.

This is basicly a DC circuit "apart from spikes" and a scope will only show these and current/voltage. At a DC setting the scope did show this eratic voltage but also the DVM, also as current draw goes down the voltage goes up, or in reverse is better said, but this is normal as there is a charge going on and current WILL fall.

I really do not know more to say at the moment, but I am throwing this around in my head and if and when I have something I will post it. One thing does come to mind and that is coils ( motor windings in a PM field ), maybe the motor wired like this is a motor generator!!!! Loading the motor down does increase the voltage, this is easly explained, the inductive resistance changes, but also there may be some type of generation, I will have to check the voltage accross the motor under different loading on it.

As can be seen there is still much that can be done, and as I have time I will do it.

Just one point is as the motor is connected between the two positives, it eventually works because the battery 3 is in charge mod ( look at my paper on eletrolytic cells and you see why ), no mistery here. What is definate is the drive batteries (2v cells in series) some of these go INTO REVERSE polarity, is this something that is causing the effect? I do not know at the moment, as I have said, battery chemistry is a mine field.

Dave have you put a DVM on the positive out of your drive battery to see what current is being drawn at different times of your run, I meen from first switch on until you have the system running as you want, this would be very helpful Also the current from your battery 3 to the run battery, and if it is a negative at any time! or any where in the circuit that shows a negative current draw!

best to you and all in this

Mike

[Duncan]

here's the rub...

Hi Mike as I posted earlier you seem to be marching to the tune of a different drum ! Having said that I know your abilities and they are needed here. That being so I'm going to emphasise and show some of the enigma here. First a little history on the Batteries. Since they form an Important part of the doings.2 years ago I decided to buy a “powabike”


an excellent investment to take me to the pub and bring me back. The previous owner was prone to falling off the bloody thing, (probably for the same reason I do) . He was lucky enough to break his leg during the winter of 2008 , He went to the hospital and the bike went to the back of the garage ( uncharged unconnected and forgotten) 7 months later he decided to recharge the batteries … guess what .. hopeless I can see he had a damn good go though because the battery cases are distorted.
Anyway luckily for me. Powabike actually sell that battery pack with batteries and that’s what George bought a whole new pack. …. what a good egg! Ah but the winter of 2010 was on the way George celebrated Christmas 2010 with a broken arm . Powabike celebrated Christmas back in the garage. George had already had his fingers burnt to the tune of one battery pack so he actually fetched the battery box in this time (one handed) and introduced it to the charger.
Georges wife however was fed up having a cripple around the house, In the pub I bought a power bike cheap … from George with two battery packs each containing three 15 AH 12 volt Lead Acid Gel cells
the cells which are totally black are the unloved abandoned ones. The white cells with blue tops are the serviceable cells
The first of the “Bad cells “ is the one you have already seen in action. It is unfortunately fixed now. And no further use in this system. However I'll bring it back for a cameo appearance at the end of this little saga
The first and probably most important thing I wish you to see and fully comprehend is the state of this battery . Now Mike I don't have a decent camera available and so I'm trying to demonstrate this on the corner of a small computer desk with a web cam . All that aside If this battery had even the slightest bit of spunk in it my multimeter would be in peril . Note I am going straight across this battery on the self ranging 100Meg resistance scale … Don't do this at home children .. Its silly
N.B here Mike this is not a flat battery, Its not a battery that has even 0.5 volt to offer very unlike the things you are using, I'm afraid you can't see very well but take my word for it that motor doesn’t twitch the meter reading is obvious
The Battery - YouTube
I have no room for loads and lights and such like here mike and so the next little bit is the motor connected in series with an infinite resistance (the battery) In the basic circuit drawn by David. Of course you know very well nothing can happen using DC with an infinite resistance in circuit
OR CAN IT ????
The motor - YouTube
That s the same battery and if I just left it stationary it would eventually start all by itself, (Just like Luthers).In fact it almost does at 2.2 mins! This means Mike there is a self starting DC load being powered through an infinite resistance by DC. But there's much Oh so much more you see I start to apply pressure to the shaft It answers with more R.P.M and more power . In this Impossible situation it simply gives more !
Go back to the smoking glove video … I suspect if Luther (and thanks again for re posting those Luther) had gripped that shaft any tighter it would have been a smouldering arm stump never mind smoking glove Because as these guy's are telling you this thing in this condition (which by the way should be absolutely impossible) reflects back a huge amount of energy
Now I haven't run this very long at all Mike and one of the reasons is cells that are absolutely totally buggered and sulphated (or whatever) beyond any hope of redemption . (And I certainly don’t mean still usable like the cells you are taking test reading with) are now very valuable to me .
Here's that first cell which I showed “frosted” back for a cameo appearance
one I did earlier - YouTube
Now that would be super if I wanted a perfectly good battery but as you can see Its the last bloody thing in world guys who are investigating this want . Even a feeble voltage available at the “dud” battery and the effect is … lost
Now I know you have some Idea that could produce COP>1.8 some how which is super but its very different and feeble compared to what’s being described here . (Which isn't to say it isn't welcome of course. ) It is however a diversion!
There's a lot more questions than answers and I'm very reluctant to rejuvenate another battery without good cause. I have among other things been asked to “frost “ one of them in insulation whilst taking the temperature . I'm not really geared up for lab work (as you can see) I might have a scratch about and see if there a school or collage that will let me frost one of these things!

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Hi Duncan

I have not abandoned the idea that there is more to this than meets the eye, infact on my last post as other posts, I have not yet looked at the MOTOR.

Well I have now done just that, and we do have a situation of which I have not got my head around it yet, but the motor has become, for some reason to be found, a motor generator but it's not a laughing matter, it is doing just that.

To see this you need 3 DVM's, the first in the line from the drive positive to the motor, the secound from the motor to the battery 3 and the third from battery 3 to the back drive battery, all connected for current measurement. What you will see is the first will show e.g. 100ma, the secound 150ma and the third 100ma+-, that third meter will vary but for this explination, 100ma. Now that excess 50ma on 2 is being taken by battery 3 as a charge until it is up to the design voltage of that battery (as the voltage goes up on 3 then the current draw on meter 2 will go down to match meter 1. By loading the motor ( apart from resistive inductance ) meter 1 will draw more current which meter 2 will also show, but if you load battery 3 the current draw on meter 2 will go up and also meter 1, but the current draw from the battery 3 to the back end of the drive batteries will also change to the difference of battery 3 and load draw. Bottom line is whatever is being drawn from the front of main battery bank, is also being sent back in a reverse mode to the back end of the main bank less the amount that is being "generated by motor" and any load on battery 3.

I hope I have explained myself, but it has suprised me that connecting the motor this way, and once in balance, it generates current over and above what it is using. All that apart, for this to work, battery 3 is taking in electrons that have already been used by the motor, as I have said before.

The interesting thing is, what is happening inside the motor when a certain balance of electrons takes place? Now the reverse polarity on the main back battery does change polarity when you connect a load to battery 3 as I have said before. You can create a balance of the system where it appears that you are replacing all the energy from the front batteries. I think the more important part to the circuit is THE MOTOR.

I will now go and watch your vids Duncan, exciting times.

Mike