3 Battery Generating System

[Turion]

Geeze Duncan,
I thought I would be spending my afternoon and evening welding, but now it looks like I have to spend all night watching YouTube videos too! Thanks for your input and all that information. I already know there will be some stuff there that will take me a while to get my head around.

FRC,
That's the goal isn't it? To be able to use the 3BGS to produce more power than it consumes. And not just a little more, but significantly more.

After what Sanskara316 said about the primaries charging when using aluminum strips to connect the batteries together, I am tempted to drag out my old corroded battery cables and give them a shot, or some coaxial cable using the sheath rather than the copper core, just to see what happens with mine. I have a 30 foot roll of aluminum flashing, and a like roll of copper flashing, so maybe I will roll out the aluminum and cut some strips to use. I'd say that's a little dangerous because it's all exposed metal, but I can wrap it with electrical tape. It needs to be tested. My original system definitely charged batteries one and two, but this is really the first post here where anybody has seen that effect. I personally have seen the batteries maintain on mine, and even go up, but NOT a consistent gain. And if you can get it to do THAT, does it REALLY matter what battery is in the third position when you get the work of the motor for free? I think NOT. So definitely worth looking into.

Dave

[pault]

battery capacitance

.... A battery is two or more plates separated by something (AKA electrolyte) so can we agree a battery = a capacitor (all be it a huge one) ? ...

It's probably not a "huge" capacitance.

C = e0 * er * A / d.

My car battery downstairs is 24.5mm long, by 16mm wide by 18mm high. The ribs are 4mm apart. I don't know how thick the plates are, nor their separation, but I can guess and get a ballpark.

So, with 6 plates, my plate area is roughly 18 * 16 * 6 = 1728mm**2.

er, dielectric constant, of sulphuric acid is 84 and of water is 80.

Guess at plate separations of 1mm, 2mm and 3mm, punch the numbers into:

Parallel Plate Capacitor Capacitance Calculator

and we get

0.0012uF with d=1mm,
612pF with d=2mm and
408pF with d=3mm.

The caps you buy at a store have very much smaller d's (the thickness of a sheet of paper) and a lot of surface area (rolled up foil, with oily paper between layers), hence, they have a much higher capacitance.

Here's an "equivalent circuit" for a battery (although maybe NiCd)

Chapter 9: Internal Battery Resistance

Chapters 4-8 of the battery bible may provide more clues. I'll report back, if I have time to read them...

pt

[Turion]

Hey Guys,
I just got communication from someone concerned about my post that I was on a web cast on venture capital. Rest assured I am NOT looking for money to start some kind of company and planning on vanishing from the forum. I AM looking for some money with no strings attached to purchase some test equipment, and I have already found some. That was all. My intent is to continue to post info here, but I want REAL data. My $6.00 hydrometer is just not going to cut it if we are going to figure this thing out. So that's all that is about.

I have a couple contacts with big money if there was ever a need for that, but they would want to go into business, and I'm not in this to go into business. I live in the Silicon Valley in California, and we've got venture capitalists all over the place here. And my wife is in intellectual property law, so I have lots of help and advice on that front if I need it. I just want ALL of us to have access to the cheapest method to produce energy independently in our own homes, and eventually to run our cars. That's it. That's the only reason I'm spending half a day on this web cast. My parents live off the grid, and I want this for THEM.

[FRC]

pault,

Good to see you posting here.

Well since my last post I managed to get a better attachment for two motors put together. Unfortunately I managed to wreck one of my motors in the process. I am now to tired to set it up in the 3BGS. Will try it after I get some sleep. I did hook up the output to the 12v halogen bulb and it did light it brightly. I will have to find some diodes or a FWBR and try charging batteries on my next run.

George

[Duncan]

I can certainly see what your saying Pault but there seems to be a certain X factor involved .. Its no longer sulphuric acid or water .. a lot of sulphate no doubt, and wow Pault viewed as a "size" the energy stored in a lead acid battery is huge (even a bad one) compared to the biggest cap I cant help but wonder if the ideal isn’t "a conditioned" heavily sulphated battery but to be absolutely honest I don’t have the answers I've just pointed to where the common answers may be. after all everything else is 100% replicable with ease .. You guys have posted the motors and their numbers also the "good batteries" and their sizes the cable sizes and connections .... Then comes the missing link .. and be under no misconception connect the “right thing” in that position however you manage to “get it by the throat” and the world is changed forever. One of you may just read something that connects the dots as I relate one system to the other .. and if that should happen .. the games over . Stick an inverter on the thing and run for ever and ever amen and I'll rejoice with you!

[Turion]

Guys,

Actually, there are THREE possible ways to achieve our goal.
1. Find a battery or substitute for the third position that makes everything work like magic.

2. Find something that causes batteries One and Two to charge, REGARDLESS of what is in the third position, because then the power from the motor is FREE, and who CARES what you can pull off battery 3 at that point. Possibly Sanskara316 hit that goal with the aluminum connections between parts. That needs to be replicated and explored.

3. Attach the motor to an energizer or generator and route some of the power back to charge batteries one and two, or put a transformer between the stack and the motor that produces enough additional power that it can charge batteries one and two, because then some or ALL of the power from the motor is free. Nobody has done that yet. We already KNOW that once you get the system balanced, the voltage drop on the primaries decreases to almost NOTHING, so if we can use a little of the power produced by either the load on battery three OR the load on the motor to help out the primaries, it is STILL a done deal.

Any way we can get to the point where we are not paying for the running motor so that we can connect it to a generator, we are THERE. Agreed?

Dave

[clueless]

Just a thought from out of the "blue"

I'm following this thread with excitment for its potential and unlike many things it is something I can visualize.
From the things I've read it seems the "bad battery" needs to be conditioned. What would happen if you used a desuphaltor on the bad battery (LA) with the fluids drained (dry) or straight distilled water or even wilder baking soda and vinegar.
I'm thinking that the desuphaltor will condition the plates, and baking soda might neutralize the acid and vinegar might evoke a weak response.
I'm just wondering if after the conditioning pour the slop out and run it with just water.
Like I said just a thought and it might not be feasible I have absoutley no idea.

[Duncan]

to err is human

Dave Its a bit like this … I know you pretty well, I’ve met you and your mate, mucked about with your Bedini toy, seen your motor I know beyond any reasonable doubt your machine operated! A good many of the folks on this thread have seen it also with their own machines ! If I had any advice to offer it would be keep aiming at what you know works, focus on the unknown (the bad battery / cap) there's a lot of hidden and suppressed information in that area anyway its all a lot easier when you believe...after all Dave that lucky accident was 1000s to one the first time! also sorry folks I did post an incorrect link in that long post (yeh I checked them) It should have been kacher cap charge.wmv - YouTube although I’ve corrected it now Best wishes Duncan

[Guruji]

Schematic

Can anyone post a schematic about the motor load with batteries that you guys are talking about?
Thanks

[Turion]

Guruji,

Read post #1. The schematic is at the bottom. Loads are connected directly to battery 3 terminals, and there MUST be a load of some kind on the motor, even if that means holding onto the shaft with a gloved hand, which I DON'T recommend!

Duncan,
WILL DO! ;-)
One of the first things I want to do when I get my setup back on the bench is connect to an Earth ground on battery three.

Dave

[fathershand]

Still Working

Hey Dave, I'm still here and working on this 3BGS. Today, I am using 60V of batteries for my batt 1 and 2. I still have the dead 6V deep cycle battery as battery 3. For my motor, I have a 95V DC brushed motor connected by belt to an auto alternator as its load. The alternator has been opened and the 3 phase wires are brought out along with he 2 wires to the brushes. This alternator is making almost enough electricity to keep the battery for the brushes charged via a voltage doubler.

My battery 3 load is variable. I have another 12v motorcycle radiator fan, a 12V bulb, a 110V 24Watt bulb, and/or an inverter.

I blew out the inverter today. I used battery 3 for the inverter battery. In order for me to get the inverter to work a little, I had to turn off the motorcycle fan and the other bulb. I tried using the 12V bulb with the inverter, but the bulb get very bright, with green tints, and then the inverter gave a loud pop and the bulb blew and smoke came out of the inverter. I unhooked it quickly, but the damage is done.

I am thinking of hooking a large cap in series with a different inverter. Do you think this will keep the inverter from getting overloaded?

Keep up the good work guys!
Tony

[Matthew Jones]

I can certainly see what your saying Pault but there seems to be a certain X factor involved .. Its no longer sulphuric acid or water .. a lot of sulphate no doubt, and wow Pault viewed as a "size" the energy stored in a lead acid battery is huge (even a bad one) compared to the biggest cap I cant help but wonder if the ideal isn’t "a conditioned" heavily sulphated battery but to be absolutely honest I don’t have the answers I've just pointed to where the common answers may be. after all everything else is 100% replicable with ease .. You guys have posted the motors and their numbers also the "good batteries" and their sizes the cable sizes and connections .... Then comes the missing link .. and be under no misconception connect the “right thing” in that position however you manage to “get it by the throat” and the world is changed forever. One of you may just read something that connects the dots as I relate one system to the other .. and if that should happen .. the games over . Stick an inverter on the thing and run for ever and ever amen and I'll rejoice with you!

I have read alot of stuff on battery sulphation over the last year. 1 common theme is the fact that a highly sulphated battery has a higher capacitance. The charge cannot penetrate the sulphation but is still kept seperated by the fluid.
So if the sulphation is the key then you do not want to destroy it. Any voltage 2x above the nominal voltage will begin to melt sulphation.
So what may be important is the amount of power coming out of the load. Have you knocked down the voltage enough with your load? This can easily be figured with ohms law, after all the battery is a capacitor and the motor is an inductor and the conbination of the 2 should cause a voltage dividing mechanism. But what is the equation to make sure its low enough?
Now if your not low enough and you are pounding the battery with high voltage you have immediatly starting changing the capacitance of the battery. So you results will change in a curve over time. and you will not be able to get predictable results even with a "Canidate Battery".

So this is some more info you are needing to report. The resistance, and henry count on the motor, plus the capacitance of the battery.
From that and a scope shot I am sure you can figure your voltage leaving the motor.

I blew out the inverter today. I used battery 3 for the inverter battery. In order for me to get the inverter to work a little, I had to turn off the motorcycle fan and the other bulb. I tried using the 12V bulb with the inverter, but the bulb get very bright, with green tints, and then the inverter gave a loud pop and the bulb blew and smoke came out of the inverter. I unhooked it quickly, but the damage is done.

I am thinking of hooking a large cap in series with a different inverter. Do you think this will keep the inverter from getting overloaded?

Keep up the good work guys!
Tony

You blew the caps in your inverter, most likely. And No a big cap will not hold the voltage down. More than likely you need a regulator before the inverter.


Matt

[Turion]

Tony,
I remember doing something similar. When I was out at my dad's place with my original device we hooked up a spare 12 volt voltage regulator he had for use with his RV. It worked great for a while and we were running an inverter off of it and loads on that. Suddenly smoke began pouring out of the regulator. I still have it. It's one of those all sealed in plastic so no one can back engineer it. The problem wasn't the voltage going to it, but the AMPS. They were way more than what the factory specs said that regulator could handle. I'd bet that's the problem you are having here.

As you can see this thing puts out high voltage AND amps, especially when the loads are balanced. I'm not enough of an electrical expert to know exactly what to do about that, but I'm sure there are some others here who could tell us. Do yo have a way of measuring the amps you've got going?


Sanskara316 also sad he was blowing 12 volt bulbs with his setup, and I think high AMPS could be his problem too. That just occurred to me. It ticks me off that I keep remembering these things that I should have warned people about, but I keep forgetting not everyone is running a little 12 volt motor anymore.

How did the voltage do on your primary batteries?

Dave

[FRC]

Burnout

I have posted before that I have blown a lot of bulbs also. Fortunately, I have
not burnt out motors like others have while running the system. This may be
an important factor to be careful about. That is not to use too small of a Dc
motor for the motor position. The burn out may be due to other factors, like
improper connections or suitability of battery 3. A lot of us want to get the
results fast instead of taking our time and do things in the right procedure
Dave has described to do. I was able to salvage the motor I thought I had
wrecked trying to attach it to the shaft of another motor. I partially took it
apart and put it back together. It still runs, but I think it will be safer to use
it as a generator, since I think it still is damaged somewhat.

George

[fathershand]

Primary Battery Voltage

Tony,
I remember doing something similar. When I was out at my dad's place with my original device we hooked up a spare 12 volt voltage regulator he had for use with his RV. It worked great for a while and we were running an inverter off of it and loads on that. Suddenly smoke began pouring out of the regulator. I still have it. It's one of those all sealed in plastic so no one can back engineer it. The problem wasn't the voltage going to it, but the AMPS. They were way more than what the factory specs said that regulator could handle. I'd bet that's the problem you are having here.

As you can see this thing puts out high voltage AND amps, especially when the loads are balanced. I'm not enough of an electrical expert to know exactly what to do about that, but I'm sure there are some others here who could tell us. Do yo have a way of measuring the amps you've got going?


Sanskara316 also sad he was blowing 12 volt bulbs with his setup, and I think high AMPS could be his problem too. That just occurred to me. It ticks me off that I keep remembering these things that I should have warned people about, but I keep forgetting not everyone is running a little 12 volt motor anymore.

How did the voltage do on your primary batteries?

Dave

Dave, I'll do some more work about the voltage regulator. Maybe a better location for the inverter would be off the alternator which is being driven by the motor. However, I don't think I'm getting very many volts and amps from it yet. There is some more tests to perform in that area.

Regarding the primary voltage. I have 5 batteries to check for this. I was only checking one as sort of a gauge where I was with there depletion of these batteries. I ran this yesterday on 3 batteries, and after resting overnight, they were down about 1/2 volt. I charged them a little with an SSG and ran the test today using 2 more batteries. When I was done and had let them rest for a few hours, the voltage was down a bit more on the 3 previous batteries and just a little for the 2 additional batteries.

Here is my conclusion so far regarding the primary batteries and voltage loss. As you know, JB teaches batteries that are charged by radiant energy in an SSG, need several charge and discharge cycles in order for them to adjust. Since I haven't had that many charge/discharge with this new device, I think that it will require several more runs to see the results that you once saw. Maybe the reason that you can't duplicate your old system results has to do with the fact that you aren't using those original batteries. Maybe the ones that you and I are using now need some more conditioning. I also think that I can do a little more in balancing the load.

You also asked about me checking the amp draw. The only way I feel comfortable doing that is to use the one ohm test. I did that a few days ago before I put the inverter into this equation and the amp draw was within a half amp of being balanced.

I'll be back at it tomorrow. Your system is very intriguing, and we are gonna solve it soon! Keep up the good work, and get some sleep. You need it!!

Tony