3 Battery Generating System

[wantomake]

Opposing magnets ongoing

To All,
A good rainy Saturday morning with hot coffee in hand as thunder rolls across the land.

Was able to get some shop time yesterday finally!!!! I'm working on the opposing magnet holders with adjustability. PVC 1" pipe with hand crude made holders for the 3/4" x 1/2" neo magnet. Will expoxy them together later today after a good buffet breakfast with my best friend(wife) and letting her shop for several hours while I do shop time.

Will hit Lowe's for a few items while in town. Planning to use pvc 1" caps to hold that adjustment threaded rod in place. 1/4" diameter I believe. Dave showed them on the video. Also making holders to prevent wobbling of the rotor.

Word of caution to anyone using plywood to build this machine. My end pieces that holds the axle bearings has bowed and unusable. Even with 3/4" plywood. So I'm shopping for some 3/8" to 1/2" aluminum plating to use. Lowe's does carry some steel plating 3" wide that I may use but will see.

As progress shows my financial supporter success, then the wood will be replaced with polycarbonate stators and base.

Dang it !! Coffee is lonely and cold. Need to change that with some nuking.
wantomake

[Turion]

Information Super Highway??????

bi,
I used an off the shelf motor for ALL of my experiments with the three battery system for YEARS. And my results were always hit and miss. It was a matter of tuning the system almost perfectly. You can go back to the beginning of this thread and see that we WERE using stock motors when we first started. Luther Goodman and I worked together on this and he saw the same results I did. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. After a couple DAYS of tuning, I could get it to work. But I have an awful lot of experience at tuning the system that other people do NOT have. I wanted something that would work "out of the box" to get people to experiment with. And then Matt built this modified motor and it worked with that motor EVERY TIME. Now I know Matt has used a stock motor pulsed with a 555 timer, and THAT has worked. So have stock motors when the stars are aligned.

I am not a technical guy. I see what I see, and as YOU know, I don't always explain it correctly. What I BELIEVE the difference is between the Matt motor and the stock motor is that stock motors have been DESIGNED to dissipate the back emf in the unused windings of the motor. In the Matt motor, it is allowed to come out, but because of the way the motor is connected between the positives, rather than fighting against the incoming voltage or current or whatever (see, technical stuff again) it takes the path of least resistance, which is going to the LOW VOTAGE source. It is a "generated" source of power that couples with the power input to the motor, which in effect makes the output of the motor HIGHER than the input. A stock motor might work EXACTLY the same way, except its 'generated power" or emf has been castrated. Now there is a video that kind of proves this that was shot by gotuluc when he was debunking our system with tiny batteries and a stock motor (which is why we get upset when we see someone doing the SAME THING) He did NOT post that video here on the forum, but posted it on a PRIVATE forum he didn't know we had access to. Because the motor was doing something he didn't understand. Matt found it, showed it to me, and I posted the link here. But I'm not sure where. It wasn't on this thread. That I know.

So with a stock motor instead of a modified motor, you are removing a crucial piece that gets us where we want to be. You already know you have losses in the system because of the inefficiency of the boost module, (although there ARE boost modules that are 99.7% efficient) and a stock motor takes away some of the gains we get from the Matt motor, which means you are down to the generator to determine your success. So it will all depend on the generator whether you see a COP>1 from the system. I KNOW a generator can be built which will output more power than is consumed by the system. If you take advantage of coils that speed up under load and elimination of magnetic cogging, and have enough coils. I have 12 coils on my generator each putting out between 180-200 volts at about 1.5 amps. They put out MORE when the motor speeds up as the generator is put under load. The motor is running on 24 volts at about 12 amps. LESS when it speeds up under load. Before the elimination of magnetic cogging, it used to run on about 36 amps until it burnt up, since it is rated at 27. And it would pull over 100 amps on start up to break magnetic lock. How much over 100 I don't KNOW, because that's as high as my meter goes and it would peg the meter. It would start up about three times' and then the motor was dead.

Now one of these days I will get around to showing all this in a video, since I have released the plans for the generator, I might as well, but it will NOT be soon. I haven't shown it BEFORE because I wasn't giving away all the secrets of my generator. I have now, so doing a video is no longer an issue. The issue is TIME TO DO IT, and the fact that I have taken the generator apart (as I showed in the video) because it is too HEAVY to move with all the coils in it. The wire in the coils alone alone weighs 60 pounds. And we are MOVING.

I tore the front porch off my house and the back deck. Both of which need to be rebuilt, and I planned on taking six months to do that. Working on one project in the morning and the other in the afternoon as the sun moves from one side of my house to the other. If I take a nap at noon time for a couple hours and work extra late in the evenings, it is perfect. And I can do that because my wife is out of town several days a week working. Then my wife and I found another house which we really love, and we bought it. So now I have to replace the porch and the deck before we can SELL this place. Plus remodel the downstairs which is unfinished except for a rather old and pretty awful bathroom. Tear out all the upstairs indoor outdoor carpeting, scrape off the popcorn ceilings. Remodel the kitchen. Remodel the upstairs bathroom. Texture the ceilings. Paint.

Oh, and the kitchen at the NEW house has to be remodeled before we move in. Plus I have to put in a fenced dog yard for the dogs before we move. So I have things to DO that are way more important to me than proving to anybody that this stuff works.

The good news is I get a new shop that is three times as big as the old one, PLUS a big two car garage that can hold a lot of stuff that was in my shop, plus a big garden shed that can hold MORE of the stuff that was in my shop. But the bad news is I lose all the built in drawers I made and the cupboards with nice doors I made, and the tool racks and peg boards to hold tools....until I replace them ALL. Building cabinets and drawers will take a bit of time.

So that is my focus right now, and I don't foresee having ANY time to work on this stuff for at least two or three months. When all that crap is done, I will have the time to shoot a video of the modified motor running the generator. But that doesn't prove recovery. And I have honestly not tried to run the motor off the output of the generator. I have a light board that holds two 300 watt light bulbs per generator coil pair or 12 bulbs. Each pair of light bulbs is connected to a coil pair. So I can measure input in volts and amps to the pair of bulbs. I use two per coil pair because I have blown ONE on several occasions. The bulb would be nice and bright, and as I flipped on more bulbs and the motor sped up under load, POW! I would rather have dim bulbs than blown up bulbs. Now one bulb per pair would be 300 watts x 6 pair or 1800 watts at full brightness. I have measured the output at 2000 watts, and over that when speeding up under load.

This is NOT the machine I showed in the video. The one I showed in the video has 10 coils not 12. I did not show a video of my bigger machine because it is more complex and the smaller machine is much easier to build and will prove all of the same points. It just won't put out as much power. But it still puts out over 1600 watts on an input of less than 300. Most of that 300 can be recovered, and it actually uses LESS when it speeds up under load and puts out MORE.

[liber63]

Dave, If I remember well this should be either the second or the third time you move to a new house the last five years. Where do you find the energy required. Does that generator of yours output another kind of energy as well?

[wrtner]

My end pieces that holds the axle bearings has bowed and unusable. Even with 3/4" plywood. So I'm shopping for some 3/8" to 1/2" aluminum plating to use.

Many supermarkets sell a white "plastic" chopping board for vegetables etc. It is said to have immense strength.

[bistander]

Motor

... stock motors have been DESIGNED to dissipate the back emf in the unused windings of the motor. ...

Hi Turion,

What you say in this quote above is very incorrect. Back emf is not dissipated in the motor. BEMF opposes the applied voltage, sorta running the armature resistance between the positives (of applied voltage and generated voltage (BEMF)). And there are no unused windings.

Interesting post from you. Thanks for sharing. But I take it that you have not built and tested that single battery circuit you recently posted. What do you envision to be the benefit of that system compared to just connecting the load directly to the battery?


You talking about your motor generator:

But it still puts out over 1600 watts on an input of less than 300.

Such a machine could generate about $8000 worth of electrical power per year (at local rates) with no fuel and no emissions. What is the ROI? Or in other words, how long would it take to pay for the cost to make and install it? Maybe you'd be ahead if you made and sold a few of these and hired the home repair work.

Another thought: Since such a home generation system would eliminate much of the electrical distribution burden, a situation like Puerto Rico hurricane restoration could have really used about 200,000 of your generators.

If it really does what you claim, it's a shame to sit on it. But your call.

Regards,

bi

[Matthew Jones]

I think what David means to say is the BEMF in a normal motor is not recoverable. In the modified motor the forward EMF is reversed and the coils shorted, the BEMF is then discharged back to the source for recovery. Every ON time of the motor (every 90 deg of rotation) is a clear path for the EMF to flow. Its constantly in a surge current and the current only limited by the time its on.
In a standard modified using the stock parts a lot of the returned power is ate up into hysteresis. The core need to be modified into low frequency ferrite instead of silicon steel. Something like TDK's N87 . So you end with a little more heat do to the frequency the forward and return current are running on.

As far the big the gen goes, it may do all that but its has to run a year first. The third build cut loose on David and almost killed him, for sure wounded him physically but I have noticed he's a little gun shy too since then. LOL One pound neo's flying around the garage 2 times faster than a bullet will do that to you.

The gen has long way to go and very few people contribute to moving it forward. I personally have and several small ones but too build a big one I have to build a bigger CNC to cut my own parts cause my budget can't handle hiring a machinist. Still working on the CNC.

Matt

[boguslaw]

I don't want to distract you from the topic but if you fail on modified motor you can always try the ordinary AC motor powered by a PWM controller coupled to the AC generator by the shaft having a large flywheel as Barbosa&Leal described in their patent application.

[wantomake]

Many supermarkets sell a white "plastic" chopping board for vegetables etc. It is said to have immense strength.

Thanks wrtner,
Yes I'm already using a cutting board to build the pictured parts for the opposing magnets holders.

37546711_2016039748426853_2826350250434756608_n.jpg37551951_2016040018426826_5580336752972791808_n.jpg

37584465_2016039678426860_1701401936546234368_n.jpg37626154_2016040271760134_3072402067759824896_n.jpg37641047_2016040118426816_4410171835140800512_n.jpg

I'm doing a lot of from scrap-crafting-of-parts for this build. I call it s.c.o.p which is short for I don't have a CNC machine. HAHAHA!!! Someone here has already offered to cnc some parts for me if I can learn a cad program. That may take some time....

Dang Dave. Would it not be faster to just bull doze the house and start over? Renovations are not my problem, it's getting the contractors here to start.

Back to the magnet holders. I'll need 12 of them as 2 are made so far. Plus the end cap in the back where the threaded 1/4' rod goes in. All the parts are from Lowes store.

I did find some 1/2' thick aluminum plating on ebay to use as end holders for the axle bearings.

It may take a LOT of time, effort, resources, and SCOP but this machine will be powering my shop when done. I will post with my low tech language skills. And make videos for ALL to see. DO NOT ask if you can come to my house to verify this machine. I and my neighbors all have protection for each other. If any stranger comes in any yard here they may get shot!! Especially my yard. All the neighbors know me and my experiments. Once the power grid went down and I offered to run a drop cord over to give power to my neighbor. They know I've got extra. So if you do come here dressed in black you might not get far!!!! LOL.

Trust Dave, Matthew, Citfta, Bob French(?) and me. Sorry don't know anyone else building this system.
wantomake
PS: Matthew that's why I stand outside when my generator is running. Yes I've dodged flying bullet magnets also. Not funny......

[bistander]

Got a stable test



I had to turn up both DC converters a bit higher than 26V indicated on the diagram and went to a 50 ohm load resistor. It did run stable for about 10 minutes. Copied some numbers and snapped a couple photos then shut it down. I guess it behaved like I expected.

Input wattmeter connected directly to battery. 12.21V, 4.0A, 48.84W.

Output wattmeter on the load resistor. 18.09V, 0.33A, 5.9W.

Input to the first dc converter was 12.21V and its output was 33.36V, 1.97A.

Second converter input was 13.2V, 0.9A and output was 30.2V, 0.32A.

Battery was a PC925, 28Ah, a few years old, left over from a client test project, about the best lead-acid battery there is, in very good condition. https://shop.odysseybattery.com/p/pc925

Comments, questions welcome. I'll leave set-up for a few days if someone thinks of something to try or wants a different data point.

Regards,

bi

[Matthew Jones]

This is were I get all my HDPE plastics. Cutting board..

Custom Plastic Solutions for Over 100 Years | ePlastics®

This is where I get polycarbonate.

https://www.estreetplastics.com/category-s/329.htm

Stainless nuts and bolts usually come from here:

https://www.zoro.com

Specialty hubs and stuff all different sizes available I buy from here:

https://www.servocity.com/770-set-screw-hubs

I have 4 or 5 more suppliers for stuff like this but just depends on what you gotta have.

I would only use polycarbonate for rotors, anything else has too much flex or is ferromagnetic. Daves machinist likes the softer stuff but I like bulletproof.

I had to turn up both DC converters a bit higher than 26V indicated on the diagram and went to a 50 ohm load resistor. It did run stable for about 10 minutes. Copied some numbers and snapped a couple photos then shut it down. I guess it behaved like I expected.

Input wattmeter connected directly to battery. 12.21V, 4.0A, 48.84W.

Output wattmeter on the load resistor. 18.09V, 0.33A, 5.9W.

Input to the first dc converter was 12.21V and its output was 33.36V, 1.97A.

Second converter input was 13.2V, 0.9A and output was 30.2V, 0.32A.

Battery was a PC925, 28Ah, a few years old, left over from a client test project, about the best lead-acid battery there is, in very good condition. https://shop.odysseybattery.com/p/pc925

Comments, questions welcome. I'll leave set-up for a few days if someone thinks of something to try or wants a different data point.

Regards,

bi

It doesn't look like you measured any return current. Really all you need to measure is the output from the battery to the first converter and the input from the return lines, first one at the motor output and the second at the generator load output. All hot side measurement, watt meters may not like that. They primarily are set to measure off of ground which in this case is not valid.

You wanna see whats being returned to the battery as well as whats being pulled out. The battery is going to drop the point is DID the load run longer this way or conventionally. IE Just wring the load up.

Also a cap may 1000uf might be beneficial at the point you are returning the energy to the battery. Parallel with the battery.

If you need a drawing or something let me know.

Matt

[wantomake]

websites

Thanks Matthew.

I appreciate the websites.

wantomake

[bistander]

Test 3

...
It doesn't look like you measured any return current. Really all you need to measure is the output from the battery to the first converter and the input from the return lines, first one at the motor output and the second at the generator load output. All hot side measurement, watt meters may not like that. They primarily are set to measure off of ground which in this case is not valid.

You wanna see whats being returned to the battery as well as whats being pulled out. The battery is going to drop the point is DID the load run longer this way or conventionally. IE Just wring the load up.
...

Here are all the current values and some voltages. Hope that helps. I attempted to tune close to the last test but didn't hit the mark exactly so don't mix data between tests. Configuration and components are the same.

[Turion]

Test setup

Bi,
Thank you so much for correcting my use of terms once again. It's a good thing you have THAT skill, because the numbers you gave for what you built would indicate that it is nowhere near COP>1. You still have everything working against you. With an inefficient boost converter, a stock motor, no speed up under load and magnetic drag from the generator, you are seeing what MOST people will see. Which is why they give up. Even WITH a Matt motor in that circuit it is the GENERATOR that determines success or failure. Without something unique, you get a system that may run for a longer period of time, but it is still going to run down. The only way to make up for losses in the system is to have a generator that outputs significantly MORE power than is needed to run it. The 3 battery system is an incredible assist to that, because it recycles a LOT of the energy the motor uses, but it cannot solve ALL the problems. Until you eliminate ALL of those issues, you will never get there.

To answer your question, yes, I did test this circuit. I used the vertically mounted Matt motor I showed in a video in post #3895. The rotor I used is more than an inch thick, mounted on the motor shaft, and has magnets mounted facing out, so I could lay the coils flat out from the rotor like spokes on a wheel. The magnets I used are the kind with the hole in the middle, and the rotor is drilled and threaded so the magnets are BOLTED on. This is all stuff from one of my earlier designs of the generator that I have collected over the years. I had to lower my top plate to mount the coils that way.

To offset the attraction of the rotor magnet to the iron cores of the coils, directly opposite each coil I had a piece of 1" PVC pipe clamped down. It had an end cap on the end farthest away from the rotor with one of those threaded units I showed in my video of the generator attached on the inside of the end cap. You have to use the FLAT end caps, not the rounded kind, and sometimes they are hard to find. A hole was drilled in the end cap, and a threaded rod inserted and threaded in, that had another of those little threaded units on it, so I could adjust it in and out to neutralize the magnetic attraction. A 1" magnet was stuck on the end and epoxied in place. My coils (3 of them) also caused the motor to speed up under load. That setup will hold 3, 5, or 7 coils. I only had 3 left over 1" neos in the drawer to use in opposition, so I only ran it with 3 coils.

Using the pulsed motor, the benefit of speed up under load, and the magnetic neutralization, I saw what I needed to see. It is a very SIMPLE example of what we have been talking about.

Most of my shop is in the back of the pickup or on the trailer as we are moving in at 8:00 on Monday morning, and the shop is actually the first thing we are setting up in the new place as I will be rebuilding the kitchen cabinets to accommodate some changes to the kitchen we are making. We are not really "moving in" until the kitchen remodel is done, and I need my shop set up to do that. As I unload stuff, I will try and set those parts aside and maybe sometime next week I can shoot a video to show that specific setup running, but I make no promises. If my wife catches me playing with toys when there are 2000 more important things on my Honey-Do list, I will live to seriously regret it. And my birthday is this week. Don't want her taking my presents back! I won't even have a bench in the new shop to set it up on!

[Matthew Jones]

Here are all the current values and some voltages. Hope that helps. I attempted to tune close to the last test but didn't hit the mark exactly so don't mix data between tests. Configuration and components are the same.

The biggest problem is that first boost converter. Its not even running 25% efficient. If your not returning any power to the ground leg all you have is
switching costs running on the ground side. That might be 10% of what you'll see on the positive side.
Generally for 50 watt load I see 200-400 milliamp depending on the impedance in load.

If I buy those things I buy DROK brand. I have always good with there stuff unless you ask to much from it.

Nice try BI I hope you don't give up.

Matt

[bistander]

Converter efficiency

The biggest problem is that first boost converter. Its not even running 25% efficiemt.
...

The first boost converter is actually running surprisingly efficient. Efficiency is power out/power in, not current ratio or whatever you used to get 25%.

Output voltage on the first converter needed to be adjusted up to about 35V to get the system running smoothly. That number, 35.xx stares me in the face on the red led on top of the converter whenever it is running. For some reason I neglected to copy the exact value while collecting data last night. I probably have photo of it from test 2 on my phone. I'll check later. But for now, let's use 35V.

Converter input power = 12.2V * 6.78A = 82.7W.
Converter output power =35V * 2.18A = 76.3W.
Efficiency = 76.3W / 82.7W = 92.3%.

I charged the battery last night and will run another test today. I'll get all the data on that converter and double check. But its efficiency is about as good as you'll see at that boost and power level for a <$50 device.

Regards,

bi