3 Battery Generating System

[Matthew Jones]

This is very interesting! I know that the 3 battery system that John shared so long ago works if you check my posts in the past you will see I have spent lots of money on that. However the one battery system is new. I ordered some boost modules that Matt posted a few pages back and will build / test the circuit and post some results.



-Altrez

I am finding funny stuff happening, if you can measure everything you can think of, every kind of way you can think of, and give us some details.

Appreciate it.
Matt

[altrez]

I am finding funny stuff happening, if you can measure everything you can think of, every kind of way you can think of, and give us some details.

Appreciate it.
Matt

I will do that and if you need me to buy some different parts to test different configurations I will.



-Altrez

[bistander]

Test 4

Here are data from most recent test.

Wattmeter on battery:
12.05V, 3.4A, 40.97W, 9.09Ah, 111.21Wh

Wattmeter on 50Ω load resistor:
18.31V, 0.33A, 6.1W, 0.885Ah, 15.3Wh



Regards,

bi

[dragon]

All the conversions add to the total losses... It appears that the biggest problem is the motor/generator in this scenario. Just a quick calculation showing around 25% efficiency over all with an even lower % return to the battery.

Simply using an inverter with a 24volt transformer rectified through a load back to the battery would yield a higher return. Assuming 90% efficiency of both inverter/charger yielding 80% overall you could return 36 watts with a 45 watt input ( not including the energy dissipated by the load ).

If there were some cheap "isolated" boost converters, that might be the only unit needed to achieve a 90% return. At that point it would seem logical to utilize a system that would use the input energy to the converter more than once bringing you closer to unity.

So what would it take to drive your load while charging a capacitor and return a small portion to the battery, then using the energy from the capacitor to drive the load while the battery is being charged? You need to either find a source of energy to add to the system or make better use of the energy you have available... yes? no?

[Matthew Jones]

All the conversions add to the total losses... It appears that the biggest problem is the motor/generator in this scenario. Just a quick calculation showing around 25% efficiency over all with an even lower % return to the battery.

Simply using an inverter with a 24volt transformer rectified through a load back to the battery would yield a higher return. Assuming 90% efficiency of both inverter/charger yielding 80% overall you could return 36 watts with a 45 watt input ( not including the energy dissipated by the load ).

If there were some cheap "isolated" boost converters, that might be the only unit needed to achieve a 90% return. At that point it would seem logical to utilize a system that would use the input energy to the converter more than once bringing you closer to unity.

So what would it take to drive your load while charging a capacitor and return a small portion to the battery, then using the energy from the capacitor to drive the load while the battery is being charged? You need to either find a source of energy to add to the system or make better use of the energy you have available... yes? no?

That the point is we have small motor that is rewound and a couple of coils that accelerate reducing the load of the motor and delivering power.

Someone back aways just used the modified motor with the boost convert and ended up with a higher charge then they started. I am going to look at that hear soon now the chores are done.

Matt

[Turion]

Cha cha cha changes

Pulse motor REDUCES costs to run the system and contributes a spike. That spike is an ADDITION. You get two for one. Coils on the generator that speed up under load reduce amp draw. Elimination of magnetic cogging reduces amp draw AGAIN. It is not one BIG thing that makes this work, it is the combination of many little things. Any one of which, if disregarded, AFFECTS the results dramatically.

[ilandtan]

Slippery Slope

I don't care what the power numbers are --because it's intuitave trying to place the power in a neat box. I know that we want to measure and compare, but what if closed system analysis isn't descriptive? All I care are the results; that for the same battery that should only provide 1hr at 8A, gets significantly more run time. Specially if I am consuming 100W through a load, while charging a different battery.

One battery scenario may not be the best way illustrate the concepts? I maybe incorrect here, but aren't you going to always muddy the power numbers by measuring how much you have going in, versus what is being consumed at the load when you are looping the energy back? It's predictable contention.

If I follow the initial 3B concept, you always recharged battery 3, while the other two discharged (something has to be doing the work). But here you are losing the advantage of that third battery charge. Harder to prove one battery works, unless there is more secret sauce.

I think it would be easier to to use the generator to charge a separate battery through a load (so you are doing work) while the destination charges the charge battery, and then swap 1 & 2(after a rest period) and see how long you can keep doing that, while not adding any additional power.

[Matthew Jones]

I don't care what the power numbers are --because it's intuitave trying to place the power in a neat box. I know that we want to measure and compare, but what if closed system analysis isn't descriptive? All I care are the results; that for the same battery that should only provide 1hr at 8A, gets significantly more run time. Specially if I am consuming 100W through a load, while charging a different battery.

One battery scenario may not be the best way illustrate the concepts? I maybe incorrect here, but aren't you going to always muddy the power numbers by measuring how much you have going in, versus what is being consumed at the load when you are looping the energy back? It's predictable contention.

If I follow the initial 3B concept, you always recharged battery 3, while the other two discharged (something has to be doing the work). But here you are losing the advantage of that third battery charge. Harder to prove one battery works, unless there is more secret sauce.

I think it would be easier to to use the generator to charge a separate battery through a load (so you are doing work) while the destination charges the charge battery, and then swap 1 & 2(after a rest period) and see how long you can keep doing that, while not adding any additional power.

If you can run the load side by side with 2 like batteries and the conventional runs less time, your saying the thing. As long the measurements to that load add up real similar. You gotta make sure the draw on the LOAD for either setup is identical within reason.

Matt

[Matthew Jones]

Testing

Here is a test I did today running a modified motor. Ran it 2 hours with 4+ amp draw on a 12v 7ah battery. By adding the boost converter and the efficiency of my motor I effectively doubled the output of the battery, or got 2 times the work out of the motor for the same cost as running it as a standard load.

Start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tP...ature=youtu.be

Finish.
https://youtu.be/qBbQ7DMyTP0

Sorry about the sound in the second one I had to move a box fan to help cool the motor and forgot to turn it off.


Its just video its not proof. You have to prove it to yourself.

Matt

[bistander]

Analogy

...
One battery scenario may not be the best way illustrate the concepts? I maybe incorrect here, but aren't you going to always muddy the power numbers by measuring how much you have going in, versus what is being consumed at the load when you are looping the energy back? It's predictable contention.
...

You have a tank of water with 5 gallons in it. You have a 4 gpm pump. It takes 1.25 minutes to empty the tank. Now you use a 5 gpm pump but split the output flow so 1 gallon per minute flows back into the tank. How long does it take to empty the tank?

Same concept as putting energy back into the battery.

bi

[garrypm]

Boost module

G'day Matt,

Your left side electrolytic capacitor on the boost module is blown and needs replacing.

Have a good one

[Matthew Jones]

G'day Matt,

Your left side electrolytic capacitor on the boost module is blown and needs replacing.

Have a good one

It came like that. About every other one does, its not blown its just bulged.

Matt

[dragon]

Here is a test I did today running a modified motor. Ran it 2 hours with 4+ amp draw on a 12v 7ah battery. By adding the boost converter and the efficiency of my motor I effectively doubled the output of the battery, or got 2 times the work out of the motor for the same cost as running it as a standard load.

Start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tP...ature=youtu.be

Finish.
https://youtu.be/qBbQ7DMyTP0

Sorry about the sound in the second one I had to move a box fan to help cool the motor and forgot to turn it off.


Its just video its not proof. You have to prove it to yourself.

Matt

Very interesting Matt. I've done enough playing around with the idea to prove to myself the possibilities are not limited. Actually the circuit I built to mimic your motor action with the 3BS moved me in a bunch of directions - including the charge pump and other passive methods to move energy around.

Still kind of busy wrapping up some heating projects but I find myself pondering and building small circuits in the late evenings similar to what you and Dave are doing. Keep up the inspirational works !

[wantomake]

Longer my1016

Matthew,
I have another longer type my1016 motor that I want to modify and use as a smaller generator.

Since the rotor is longer would I use the same method as the prime mover motor? Or different awg, number of turns, and method of winding on the rotor at 40,30,30 turns?

I like the videos. Was going to setup the same way but, my marine batteries are 115 amp hours. The test would be too long and the motor way too hot.

wantomake

[bistander]

My results

Here is a test I did today running a modified motor. Ran it 2 hours with 4+ amp draw on a 12v 7ah battery. By adding the boost converter and the efficiency of my motor I effectively doubled the output of the battery, or got 2 times the work out of the motor for the same cost as running it as a standard load.

Start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-tP...ature=youtu.be

Finish.
https://youtu.be/qBbQ7DMyTP0

Sorry about the sound in the second one I had to move a box fan to help cool the motor and forgot to turn it off.


Its just video its not proof. You have to prove it to yourself.

Matt

I duplicated your experiment with equipment I used for the previous tests. Battery was at 12.66V, current was 1.02A on both + & - terminals of battery. Boost converter output was 35.0V. Motor was at 22.3V. Motor current was 0.456A measured at both motor terminals. I measured 1.3A into converter input positive and 0.87A out of converter input negative.

I looked over your vids a bunch. I suspect the accuracy of the current reading. Really seems like a lot of power (~48W) to run the motor at no-load. Also, it looks like a yellow test lead clip on the battery negative terminal. Is that just to secure the test probes or does it connect somewhere? Wouldn't happen to have a good old analog ammeter to check that battery current?

Regards,

bi