3 Battery Generating System

[Turion]

New Year

It's a couple minutes after midnight where I am, so here's my first post of the new year. Just something for you all to think about. I have spouted so much stuff over the last eight or so years on the forum that I honestly can’t remember if I have ever discussed the theory behind the research into batteries I have done. Anyway, I thought I would throw it out here for all the naysayers to have a field day with, correcting my grammar, use of terms and whatever other mistakes I happen to make.

First, let’s look at what we’ve been taught. We put a volt meter on a battery to measure how much energy is contained in it. Then we hook up a load to the battery, say a modified Matt motor, and eventually that motor slows down and stops. We say the battery is “dead” because the motor has used up all the energy in the battery, and now it needs to be recharged. We have been taught that the electrical energy in the battery was converted into mechanical energy that caused the motor to turn. But what if most of that is WRONG?

What if the meter is actually measuring the (potential) DIFFERENCE between the positive and negative side of the battery. And what if that energy stored in the battery is like water, and wants to seek its own level. So that when we connect the motor, the energy from one side of the battery runs THROUGH the motor to the other side of the battery, equalizing. The potential difference is now way lower, so our meter shows very little difference between the two sides. There is NO MOVEMENT of current between one side of the battery and the other, so nothing to make the motor run anymore, and it slows to a stop. The energy is still THERE. It hasn’t been used up, or at least MOST of it hasn’t. Some was converted to heat, but MOST of it is still there. It’s just equalized between the two sets of plates in the battery. No movement of energy ( from one side of the battery to the other) means nothing you connect to the battery will run. To move it all back to one side we hook up a charger and FORCE the energy back to one side, unbalancing the battery and reestablishing the potential difference.

Can I prove any of this? Funny you should ask. If you DO run your motor and it slows and comes to a stop, you would not expect it to suddenly run again would you? Here’s an experiment for the more experienced researcher who can take all the proper SAFETY precautions. Batteries can explode, so don’t try this at home unless you know what the heck you are doing. Take a small battery that only holds a volt or two. Connect its negative to the negative of your “dead battery. Now connect your motor between the positive of your dead battery and the small, low voltage battery. What happens? WHY does it happen?

It happens because the “potential difference” between your “dead” battery and the small, low voltage battery was enough to make the motor run. There was still a WHOLE LOT of energy in your battery, but it wouldn’t move from the side it was on to the other side because the two sides were about equal. But the higher voltage of your “dead” battery was still a MUCH higher potential than the small, low voltage battery. So the motor ran. If you put a load on the lower voltage battery at the same time, it will discharge as fast as it charges and that’s a much safer way to test.

This is the basis for all the work I have done on the 3 Battery system, and what led to an understanding of how electricity REALLY works. Class dismissed

[axxelxavier]

Hi
axxelxavier
I have not followed all your questions. If you summarize for me what you are looking for I probably have a schematic for it, with part numbers. From what I have read you need DC/DC ssr's. They can get expensive but at low power they can do a lot. If you looking for high power Fets are the way to go and I have many Fet controlled 3 battery switchers that run from an arduino. Just outline what you are looking for and the next time I check in I'll try to help you out.
Matt

Hy, Matt, thank you for your reply. I'm trying to do an automatic 3BGS switcher using Arduino.
My previous attempt was to make something similar, but only with 2 Batteries and an boost-converter. I managed to make this switcher, but only with a 4 relay module (5 volt).
***It's only me who can't edit properly posts? I can't make a single post decently....

[axxelxavier]

Problem editing previous post

I tried to use only n-Mosfet on the low side, but didn't figure how to isolate mosfets from common ground issue, since each need 5 volt, so all mosfets are sharing same ground, which is BAD for switching all connections from those 2 batteries....With relays it is working quite nicely, though the code should be improved. This setup was easy to made, though, since both batteries shared the same ground (common -), in the first place for voltage reading side of Arduino (with voltage divisors), and then for setting the relays.
After some running tests with modified motor in 3 BGS configuration, I was very excited by the results, I decided to go BIG, and to make the 3BGS automatic switcher.
First step was to make an semiautomatic switcher, based on 4 push-buttons + Arduino and relays, so I can select manually what charging configuration I need. See the PDF attached to this post, you will understand better. This configuration works, BUT, there are, also, some issues.

[axxelxavier]

1. because I use a 8 relay module (12 volt, this time), the current draw is bigger (@200 mA - 20 mA for Arduino nano + 150-160 mA for 3 relays ON);
Note: after Alex post, I decided to give a try to his suggestion: VOM1271T Photovoltaic MOSFET Driver, for switching with Mosfet all connections. What do you think?
2. In one configuration (Battery 2+ Battery 3 are charging Battery 1 - Setup 2, page 2 from files attached), the polarity of the load is reversed, which can be a BIG issue sometimes. I figure out how to solve this, but I need 3 more relays, and this time any switching mode have 4 relays ON, which means MORE current draw from the 4-th battery (which is powering my Arduino).
3. For automatic switching, I need for each battery a voltage reading, through a resistor divider. For all 3 voltage readings to be send to Arduino, though, they need to share a common ground, which, again, it's a problem. This can be, eventually, solved with optocouplers like 817 or so.

You mention: „I have many Fet controlled 3 battery switchers that run from an arduino”. How did you managed to solve the common ground issue, for both voltage readings and for switching connections?

Best regards, and A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Teodor

[bistander]

Battery energy

...
First, let’s look at what we’ve been taught. We put a volt meter on a battery to measure how much energy is contained in it. ...

Happy New year Turion,

Let's not start the year with a pizzing session, but I gotta say that you have been taught wrong. A voltmeter measures voltage or potential difference (same thing), NOT energy. Using a voltage measurement to attempt to determine the energy of a battery is very inaccurate. I see many here use voltage as an energy indicator and that leads them to erroneous conclusions.

Over the years, Battery University (in Germany) has had both good and dubious information posted at their web site. Back in 2012 I spent several days at a Lithium battery manufacturer next door to the Battery University. It was an impressive facility but inactive at that time so I was unable to visit them. But anyhow, today it appears they do have some good information available in lesson format. I'll link to one lesson, but please study other lessons on the subject of battery energy and state of charge measurements by using prior and next navigation arrows.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...asure_capacity

Regards,

bi

[citfta]

Happy New Year Bistander,

Dave was keeping the discussion simple for those that don't have advantaged knowledge about batteries. He and Matt and I all have battery analyzers to keep check on what our batteries are actually doing and the amount of charge they have. Those guys are the ones that encouraged me to get a battery analyzer for my own use so I could see what is really going on in the 3BGS and to help me learn how to balance and tune the system.

I drove an electric golf cart type of vehicle for several years at work. And I also had for several years an electric lawn mower called a GE Electrak. And guess what? Both of them had a simple volt meter that showed when it was time to recharge the batteries.

I understand what you mean about voltage not being a good indicator of how much energy is in a battery. A badly sulfated battery can have a high voltage reading but no real energy storage capacity. But for good batteries of reasonable size the voltage level is a pretty good indicator of the charge in the battery.

Carroll

[bistander]

Yep

Happy New Year Bistander,

Dave was keeping the discussion simple for those that don't have advantaged knowledge about batteries. He and Matt and I all have battery analyzers to keep check on what our batteries are actually doing and the amount of charge they have. Those guys are the ones that encouraged me to get a battery analyzer for my own use so I could see what is really going on in the 3BGS and to help me learn how to balance and tune the system.

I drove an electric golf cart type of vehicle for several years at work. And I also had for several years an electric lawn mower called a GE Electrak. And guess what? Both of them had a simple volt meter that showed when it was time to recharge the batteries.

I understand what you mean about voltage not being a good indicator of how much energy is in a battery. A badly sulfated battery can have a high voltage reading but no real energy storage capacity. But for good batteries of reasonable size the voltage level is a pretty good indicator of the charge in the battery.

Carroll

Hi citfta,

Yep, one of the B.U. lessons does cover voltmeter SOC meters. They are crude and give a gross indication at best, but are useful on the likes of golf carts and better than nothing. What is very wrong is, as I have actually seen here, a member measures 12.65V compared to 12.64V and claims an increase in energy and "proof" of over unity. Performance claims of systems need to be validated with data from accurate instruments used correctly. Sticking a voltmeter across a battery for energy doesn't yield that. Turion should not perpetuate that method, IMO.

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

bi,
Once again you want to argue semantics instead of dealing with the CONCEPT I was attempting to explain. But this time you are agreeing with me and don’t even realize it. Here is what I said:

First, let’s look at what we’ve been taught. We put a volt meter on a battery to measure how much energy is contained in it....
What if the meter is actually measuring the (potential) DIFFERENCE between the positive and negative side of the battery.

You are so quick to try and jump on anything I say to try to discredit my posts that you miss the meaning. Or is that your purpose? To discredit any small part you can so that the whole will be ignored? What is it you think you gain by these tactics? Do you think I will quit? LOL.

[bistander]

Potential difference

bi,
Once again you want to argue semantics instead of dealing with the CONCEPT I was attempting to explain. But this time you are agreeing with me and don’t even realize it. Here is what I said:

You are so quick to try and jump on anything I say to try to discredit my posts that you miss the meaning. Or is that your purpose? To discredit any small part you can so that the whole will be ignored? What is it you think you gain by these tactics? Do you think I will quit? LOL.

Turion,

I saw that. I read the entire post. There are other statements I disagree with but was going to keep it short and civil.

To start, you refer to measuring voltage to determine energy as common and correct, like saying "we've been taught". True, later you do say voltage is potential difference.

*Actually you said:

...
What if the meter is actually measuring the (potential) DIFFERENCE between the positive and negative side of the battery. ...

"What if"... Like the voltmeter isn't reading potential difference.

My purpose was to give the readers a resource (Battery University website) to learn about batteries and proper measurements.

Citfta claims you have a good battery analyzer. I'd be interested in seeing what that is. I've mentioned before that I've tested thousands of batteries and the only really true, 100% accurate method of determining energy is Coulomb counting/voltage integration over time. These days there are fairly inexpensive watt hour meters available which do a pretty good job at this, like I used on my tests of your single battery dual converter system.

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

Tools

bi,
Citfta, Matt and I all have the same battery analyzer and scope. Mine are over at my old house as I have not moved much of my shop over yet. Still remodeling the big empty room at the new place to turn it into a shop, along with about a thousand other projects, so I couldn’t tell you the make and model of that battery analyzer. I do know Matt had access to a very expensive one for a time, and did a lot of testing with it also.

So far you have managed, once again, to keep the discussion focused on semantics rather than concepts. Good job.

[bistander]

Thanks

...
So far you have managed, once again, to keep the discussion focused on semantics rather than concepts. Good job.

When one does not understand the terminology and details, good bet he doesn't know the correct concepts. I posted a resource where readers could learn the correct concepts as well as proper semantics. What's wrong with that?

... Class dismissed

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

Lesson

Nothing would be wrong with that if you were trying to be helpful, but you are not. You know nothing about this stuff, have yet to even build a proper circuit to test it, yet assume your vast experience in other areas qualifies you to make judgements in this area. It doesn’t. You continue to argue semantics because it is all you DO know. You haven’t made a single cronstructive contribution to what we have shared and continue to insist it is our responsibility to spoon feed you everything because you are unwilling to invest the time and resources to discover anything on your own. If this is such a worthless project why are you here day after day claiming we are fakes and frauds? Why not just go on your way and invest your valuable time elsewhere? Probably because someone is paying you to discredit us and sidetrack this thread. That won’t happen though. Too many people have seen positive results, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

[bistander]

Spoonfeed?

Nothing would be wrong with that if you were trying to be helpful, but you are not. You know nothing about this stuff, have yet to even build a proper circuit to test it, yet assume your vast experience in other areas qualifies you to make judgements in this area. It doesn’t. You continue to argue semantics because it is all you DO know. You haven’t made a single cronstructive contribution to what we have shared and continue to insist it is our responsibility to spoon feed you everything because you are unwilling to invest the time and resources to discover anything on your own. If this is such a worthless project why are you here day after day claiming we are fakes and frauds? Why not just go on your way and invest your valuable time elsewhere? Probably because someone is paying you to discredit us and sidetrack this thread. That won’t happen though. Too many people have seen positive results, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Turion,

Asking for proof of claim is not insisting on being spoonfed. And why is posting facts, references to the science and asking reasonable questions not helpful? But instead of engaging me and discussing the concepts, you go on these rants. I have a great deal of experience in exactly the types of systems you're doing. You fail to recognize that and refuse the help I offer.

Why have none of these "positive results seen by too many people" been posted in a fashion where we can examine the methods and data? Show me one other who has built and documented your single battery dual converter system? I think I'm the only one. Isn't that helpful? Wasn't I helpful when another member asked about converters? Didn't I even help Matt understand better those converters?

Face it. You get hurt because the correct explanations and facts I post often contradict what you have posted. You could learn from that but instead you attack me. You should appreciate me.

And yes, bring your iceberg into port and show us more than the tip.

Regards,

bi

[Matthew Jones]

You mention: „I have many Fet controlled 3 battery switchers that run from an arduino”. How did you managed to solve the common ground issue, for both voltage readings and for switching connections?

Best regards, and A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Teodor

So the cheapest way to go is to localize every battery with the smallest Arduino you can get away with, which would be something like a ADA Trinket, or maybe just a little bigger, but something along that line.
It takes 6 fets per battery to be able to put the battery in any position in the system. You need 2 high side fets and 4 low side. You can do this simply with all the same parts for both low side and high side.
Now the little arduino's will interface to one big arduino central to the system and they will talk via SPI or I2c through a digital isolator. The Central Arduino will make the conclusions on what needs done based on the batteries current position and voltage.

The whole thing is a big undertaking. Expensive too, but its the only way your going to get everything under total automation.

You can also go the isolated ADC route if your real good with the arduino. The reason I would not use them is I don't believe there are Libraries that support it but there are plenty of libraries for TI adc's just not this isolated version. So you have to be able to write a library in C to run and interface that ADC.
https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...3-1-ND/7688273

The schematic of mine is in a notebook so I have to convert it. Make sure you are up to the task.

If you wanna try on your own you'll need:

To be able to interface between 2 Arduino independent of each other through a digital Isolator. You will find the needed info on the arduino forum.
You'll need to be able to read voltages from a battery with an ADC from the arduino.
I can give the switching pattern and parts. You have to build a board for each battery.

Basically what happens is each board can hook to 1 of 3 positions. The high rail, the low side rail or resting. Each board is powered locally by the battery its attached too, and again each battery has its own control system and measurement system, a master controller manages up to 16 batteries in the system and that can be expanded radically.


Let me know if your interested.

Matt

[axxelxavier]

So the cheapest way to go is to localize every battery with the smallest Arduino you can get away with

I already have some Arduino Nano's laying around, and I'm going to try with those first.

It takes 6 fets per battery to be able to put the battery in any position in the system. You need 2 high side fets and 4 low side. You can do this simply with all the same parts for both low side and high side.

Do you have a schematic on this? I would like to try to use mosfets, instead of relays...

The whole thing is a big undertaking. Expensive too, but its the only way your going to get everything under total automation.

I already spended big bucks on my trials, not to mention all boards who end up in „magic smoke”. That's the price of knowledge, I suppose...

The schematic of mine is in a notebook so I have to convert it. Make sure you are up to the task.
If you wanna try on your own you'll need:
To be able to interface between 2 Arduino independent of each other through a digital Isolator. You will find the needed info on the arduino forum.
You'll need to be able to read voltages from a battery with an ADC from the arduino.
I can give the switching pattern and parts. You have to build a board for each battery.
Basically what happens is each board can hook to 1 of 3 positions. The high rail, the low side rail or resting. Each board is powered locally by the battery its attached too, and again each battery has its own control system and measurement system, a master controller manages up to 16 batteries in the system and that can be expanded radically.
Let me know if your interested.
Matt

For sure, I am VERY interested. At the beginning, I had the same idea as yours, to make local boards for controlling each battery, but my lack of information about electronics - to be more specific, about how to control those local Arduino's with a central one, make me stop.
My dream is to make an autonomous switching system, powered by each battery itself, with a small current draw.
There are techniques for low power consumption in Arduino which I already tested, and I intend to combine this with low power current draw switching of n-mosfets.
In the meantime, I will learn about arduino's i2c communication and digital isolators.
Best regards,
Teodor