3 Battery Generating System

[Turion]

The motor is absolutely essential to this setup. It pulses the power through from the 24 volts to the 12 volt. A load like a light bulb in place of the motor will also allow battery three to charge, but look what happens to batteries one and two when you use a load that does not pulse. Plus, in my opinion, the motor is acting as a generator, when its coil collapses, sending energy forward into the system.

George, take note of how long it takes batteries one and two to recover from that long a run. It could be quite a while, if they ever do. By the way, now that you have seen it run for an hour with a load (what kind of light bulb was it on your 75 watt inverter?) do you see that you've gotten more energy out of the system than your batteries have put in? Did they completely recover? We need folks like you to weigh in on whether this thing really works or not so that we can get some people building it and figure out how to replace battery three with something easier to replicate.

[FRC]

Dave

Dave, after 12 hours of rest, battery 1 is back to full charge, battery 2 has a slight loss. I only used a 2.5 watt led bulb from Wal Mart. I had also tried to use a Wal Mart 20 watt inverter, but it did not want to stay working as the 75 watt did. I also tried a 40 watt incandescent bulb, it would stay on continuously only if a very heavy load was applied to the motor. Battery 1 is a new one, battery 2 is an old one, I do have two other new garden batteries that could be used for battery 2.


George

[mbrownn]

Can ask a couple of questions

Can you post a schematic?

Are you testing the primary batteries for loss of charge, if so how?

How do you think it is working?

Just trying to get my head round it

[Turion]

Here is what I THINK. The difference in potential between the 24 volt stack and the 12 volt stack causes current to move through the motor. The motor acts as a generator and adds power to the system which pulses the 12 volt battery. These sharp pulses induce SOMETHING in this battery. The power we are able to pull off battery three (until the sulfated plates begin to absorb power and then it diminishes to nothing) is considerable, with little or no effect on batteries one and two that they cannot recover from. The more sulfated the battery in the third position, the less batteries one and two are affected. Get a really sulfated battery, like my original, and you actually get a back feed into those two batteries.

How did we test that batteries one and two had recovered? First, with a meter. But it could be just a surface charge, so you have to isolate the battery and connect it to a load to make sure that you have an accurate reading.

You have to run loads for short periods of time because you will overcome the sulfation if your run is too long, and that's when you lose charge out of the two primary batteries. But I have run loads over and over for weeks on end, allowing my batteries to recover, and my amp hours of use total more than several batteries could provide. This is why we are running loads off an inverter through a kilowatt meter, so we KNOW how much power we are getting, and since we KNOW what three FULL batteries would hold, we have a reasonable idea of how successful we are.

The goal here is to replace battery three with something that doesn't require sulfation to work. Possibly a cap to provide the potential difference and a resistor to mimic the sulfation. What might be best is to pulse the system with a connection to a third battery, so that the potential difference is SEEN, and the current moves through the motor, but the connection is terminated before there can be movement of ions in the third battery that allow it to charge. In that case you could use ANY battery in the third position. We're hoping to get enough folks working on this that we can figure it out.

[clueless]

The underlined part stumps me.

Maybe somebody can explain why not use another motor on the "other side" and eliminate switching the batteries. Seems to me that will increase the output too.
Admittedly I am over my head and there is probably a logical reason why you can't use two motors with two battery banks and just stick with the one motor.

They use 24V batteries on both sides. No tesla switch configiration.
The system was comprised of a series-wound, brushed, DC motor (slightly modified) powered by one bank of two 12-Volt batteries (102 Ah) wired in series for a 24-Volt output. The company says the back-EMF is harvested into a second, identical battery bank, which is also wired in series. These two banks are periodically cycled, trading places in the circuit, and the net charge stays essentially the same, across both banks. The optimized cycling of power and storing of the back-EMF are all controlled by a proprietary circuit board and software developed by the inventor. The motor shaft is connected directly to the shaft of the AC generator, which spins at 3,000 rpm to produce 5 kW of power at 50 Hz, 220-V.

[Turion]

Oops! Saved this post twice!

[Turion]

Look at it this way. When you put two batteries in series through a load (like a light bulb) to a third battery that is discharged, the current moves like water to equalize between the higher and the lower. The light lights, and you get minimal loses of current (in the form of heat). It's like an old mill set up on a river. As the water flows past it turns the mill wheel and grinds the corn. The "work" the water does as it moves is free, just like the current moving from higher to lower through the motor is free.

Now in a motor, the voltage goes in and we know it would flow out the same way, (virtually) unused (except for heat losses), to be used somewhere else downstream. PLUS there is also the energy that is produced by the sudden collapse of the coil in the motor. This second (generated) current is sent into the windings of the motor to dissipate and die so that it doesn't fight against the incoming current.

Now Dr. Lindemann has talked about using a second set of brushes in a modified motor to collect that current and funnel it out of the motor Wouldn't a battery waiting to be charged provide an easier route for the flow of current than into windings that dead end and back up the flow? Once it is full, you charge a second battery that had been providing current for a while. Now you have two full batteries and your two initial batteries are now empty and ready to swap places. In all probability this is what they are doing. You also get the power of the work done by the motor pretty much for "free". In this case it is hooked to a generator which also produces power.

Of course, this is only a guess, but it is based on what I have seen and what I know about how motors work after messing with them for the last four years. There are others out there who know a heck of a lot more than I do about this. And even THIS explanation doesn't take into account what happens to that discharged battery when you hit it with those pulses from a DC motor, because whatever THAT is, it's also an addition. So maybe their off the shelf DC motor is "slightly modified" simply by adding a second set of brushes

This MAY be much simpler than what we imagine. We are seeing power from our setup, which is just as simple and possibly nearly the same. So get to work people! LOL

Dave

[FRC]

clueless

I can not comment on that device, but I was thinking of trying two motors
connected where only one is now with the three battery setup, to see what
will happen.

@ Dave, I think I remember seeing a comment at OU that this system is what
Magnicoaster had there. You can google Magnicoaster and see that he is
trying to sell his devices. But from what I can tell he never perfected it
either. He can give a short demonstration, and it looks like it works. But
it does not look like it will work continuously. Any thoughts ?


George

[Turion]

I don't know anything about Magnicoaster, so I don't know.

Do you mean two motors connected in parallel into the system where there was one? Interesting idea. Doubles the load, and then you have to balance that with a load on battery three. Maybe running two motors will be ENOUGH load without putting a load on the motors. Worth a shot. Let us know what happens.
Dave

[mbrownn]

In this setup, I can see how it will desulphate in the period that the motor wont run by the fact it is working as a tank circuit. This makes sense.

During the running period it makes sense that the current is flowing through the motor causing the motor to have torque with the only loss being the ohmic loss in the motor as the current that has passed through is collected in the second battery. This is in its self proof that running a motor does not consume power other than that consumed in ohmic resistance. I have said this before on many threads and as yet no one has challenged it.

Adding loads to the third battery just reduces the impedance seen by the primaries and motor allowing the motor to run faster. These loads will consume power based on their ohmic resistance. All this makes sense and it is an efficient way to run a motor. The spikes generated by the running motor will also desulphate the third battery but as I see it we are still consuming the same power out of the two supply batteries and they should be getting depleted.

Yes, lead acid batteries have the ability to recover somewhat from short heavy load drains but only as much power can be drawn as is seen when the battery is drained at C20. While they might appear fully charged they should in fact not be. If the batteries are in fact keeping their charge, I am baffled

Does anyone agree, disagree or have another explanation?

I like what you are doing as it proves that a motor does not consume power to make it run. If there is no loss or even a reduced loss from the primaries this needs to be documented as something else must be going on.

Of course the power produced by the motor can be used to power a generator that can feed power back into the circuit and when you do this you will most probably find that there is more energy in the combined output of the generator and that going into the charged battery than what is being drained from the source. It should be possible to charge three batteries in parallel this way while depleting two.

If the motor used was of my design it may be possible to charge many more as we will be having an additional pulse effect charging the batteries plus overall higher efficiency.

I fully believe you have an overunity circuit when a generator is fitted but the source batteries must go down.

To see the overunity you need a high efficiency motor and a high efficiency generator, that is both need to be in excess of 70% efficiency. As the efficiency of the motor and generators go up the overunity will go up.

To make it self running, I would feed the output of the generator to the output battery and use an inverter to feed this back to the source. Once the system is running all the batteries could be replaced with capacitors.

Note the similarity with one of my Lockridge circuits but this would require a special motor. Circuit Simulator Applet

[Turion]

mbrownn,

We have a couple different ideas for motors to use with this. The first is the modified DC motor of Dr. Lindemann's design. That is a rewound motor with two sets of brushes. One set provides the current to run the motor and the second collects the collapse of the coil and sends it back out.

The second would be a motor with something to collect the CEMF rather than send it into the windings to die.

But if you have a motor you want to try have at it. If there is a modification you want us to try, let me know what it is, and we'll try to make that happen.

Now, as to the current setup. What if, because of the fact that the motor is run between two positives, and because of the pulsing that I KNOW is affecting somehow the magnetic field of battery three, something is happening to either the supplied current, or the current that comes from the collapse of the coil? Just an idea.

[erfinder]

mbrownn,

We have a couple different ideas for motors to use with this. The first is the modified DC motor of Dr. Lindemann's design. That is a rewound motor with two sets of brushes. One set provides the current to run the motor and the second collects the collapse of the coil and sends it back out.

The second would be a motor with something to collect the CEMF rather than send it into the windings to die.

But if you have a motor you want to try have at it. If there is a modification you want us to try, let me know what it is, and we'll try to make that happen.

Now, as to the current setup. What if, because of the fact that the motor is run between two positives, and because of the pulsing that I KNOW is affecting somehow the magnetic field of battery three, something is happening to either the supplied current, or the current that comes from the collapse of the coil? Just an idea.

Question...

Has this been tried on a "Brushless Motor" yet?

Regards

[FRC]

erfinder

Neight tried brushless PC fans.

I am glad you posted this! I completely forgot I have a few 12DC PC fans. They are brushless, but it gave me something to try tonight.
The bad battery that I am using wouldn't take any thing more than 3.5V on my SSG, and as soon as I connected any load at all to it, even a joule thief, it would drop down to 1.5V or less, and die in a hurry.
when it is on the SSG charging, it would read 11-12V charge.

I hooked everything up as per Turion's first post (fan connected to pos of battery 1 and 3, neg of 1 connected to pos of 2, and neg of 2 connected to neg of 3) and the fan started right away, which I understand may not be a good thing, but oddly enough the bad battery (bat 3) is reading 17V and climbing at the moment when it is under load. when I remove the fan, I now get 4V and dropping, instead of the 3.5V I had seen on it previously as a high mark. Not sure what to make of it yet, but I am looking to connect a load to bat 3 and see what happens next
The fan is running, though no where near full power yet, and it has some LED's in it, which will flash off every few minutes. the fan doesn't seem to change speed when it happens, though it is hard to tell. Not sure what that means either. I will leave the test running for a while, monitor all three bat voltages, and post what happens.
Thanks for making that post FRC, you got me started at least!

N8

I have connected a light bulb I pulled out of a drill press that stopped working to bat 3, to see what happens. With the bulb connected, The voltage on bat 3 drops to 14.5V and sort of stabilizes, though it does still show it climbing slowly. Batteries 1 and 2 don't seem to notice the extra load at all, and in fact, bat 1 gained a few mV after the bulb was connected. I do not get much light at all out of the bulb mind you, but it does glow ever so slightly...
Again, not sure if any of this even means anything, but I am trying to document it, in case it is helpful in any way

[mbrownn]

mbrownn,

If there is a modification you want us to try, let me know what it is, and we'll try to make that happen.

A universal motor with a wave wound armature fitted with extra brushes. I don't know where to get such an armature from so its a winding contest again. Peters windings in the lockridge thread are basically wave wound.

[erfinder]

Neight tried brushless PC fans.

Anyone tried this "cap discharge test" from the site below? I think it might be related to what you all are doing...

Capacitive Discharge Motor and other free energy files - J Snell

I tried test in the attached image.
Regards