3 Battery Generating System

[dragon]

How does the current show up on the ground if nothing is being returned to the ground side?

I see what your saying though I am not arguing I just do not see the current path back to ground.


Matt

The boost circuit is separate from the motor circuit. I see the boost portion operating between the positive and negative of the battery - the motor circuit is operating between potentials of the boost coil with no connection to the battery negative.... basically two potentials in the same loop. This loop can't contribute anything to the battery's state of charge.

It appears to me that the generator is the sole contributor to battery charge in this case - or in other words - The motor/generator is the critical area where most of the losses appear to be.

Not being critical - just an observation...

Edit: "Ground" is sort of a universal term for zero voltage or negative. We tend to use the term loosely when we should be using "potentials" in reference to the connection. One might be more negative than the other making the other "more" positive, such as connecting between the negatives.

[bistander]

Ground

How does the current show up on the ground if nothing is being returned to the ground side?

I see what your saying though I am not arguing I just do not see the current path back to ground.


Matt

Matt, dragon,

Pardon me for jumping in but I've been perplexed with Matt's use of ground. Ground is arbitrary. It can be any node in the circuit you choose. Like the old Ford Model A 6 volt positive ground. In the circuit I just built and am running, there is no connection to Earth. I can call any node there "ground". So when you talk about "ground" it would be nice to have defined which node you have chosen. Especially in circuits where the negatives of the standard terminals of the components are not all tied together.

Regards,

bi

Edit:

Been running test for about 1.5 hours. Pretty steady at 42W from battery and 6W into the load resistor.

[bistander]

Thanks

Bi,
I guess you are going to have to call the free energy police and report me then, because as far as I am concerned there is no law or rule or regulation that “requires” me to prove ANYTHING to you, just as there is no law that requires you to build anything I suggest. If you don’t want to build the generator, DONT. But don’t come whining around for help in the future because you had your chance.

Turion,

If you recall, I got involved with you to try to help you understand why nobody, like that other forum, would take you seriously. Even back then, same thing: you making claims, remarkable claims, and providing absolutely no supporting evidence or proof. It's not a matter of free energy jail time or fines, just civilized human behavior.

I am assuming you believe the circuit you built on my recommendation is nothing special? Are you even LOOKING at your own data? I want you to remember this moment.

I've been pouring over the data for three days. I'll ask again. What is it you think is special about it? What did you see when you tested it?

Regards,

bi

[Matthew Jones]

To me it looks like the battery is supplying 12.2 volts at 4.47 amps to the boost, 54.53 watts. The motor sees 20.6 volts at 2.18 amps or 44.9 watts. Around 83% efficiency. The 6.78 amp reading is deceptive because that is the combined current in that loop ( 4.47 + 2.18 = 6.65 amps ).

The output of the generator is 11.7 watts and the output of the 2nd boost is 10.57 watts, there we see around 90% efficiency. The battery is clamping the voltage at 12.2 with a .36 amp return or around 4.4 watts going back to the battery and 6.58 watts being dissipated by the load or 10.98 watts total.

How does the current show up on the ground if nothing is being returned to the ground side?

I see what your saying though I am not arguing I just do not see the current path back to ground.


Matt

[bistander]

Thanks

To me it looks like the battery is supplying 12.2 volts at 4.47 amps to the boost, 54.53 watts. The motor sees 20.6 volts at 2.18 amps or 44.9 watts. Around 83% efficiency. The 6.78 amp reading is deceptive because that is the combined current in that loop ( 4.47 + 2.18 = 6.65 amps ).

The output of the generator is 11.7 watts and the output of the 2nd boost is 10.57 watts, there we see around 90% efficiency. The battery is clamping the voltage at 12.2 with a .36 amp return or around 4.4 watts going back to the battery and 6.58 watts being dissipated by the load or 10.98 watts total.

I'm down in my basement lab running it as I type. The coupling is a bit noisy and irritating. But I have been poking around with the voltmeter and ammeter and coming to the same conclusions you just outlined.

I agree.

Thanks.

bi

[dragon]

To me it looks like the battery is supplying 12.2 volts at 4.47 amps to the boost, 54.53 watts. The motor sees 20.6 volts at 2.18 amps or 44.9 watts. Around 83% efficiency. The 6.78 amp reading is deceptive because that is the combined current in that loop ( 4.47 + 2.18 = 6.65 amps ).

The output of the generator is 11.7 watts and the output of the 2nd boost is 10.57 watts, there we see around 90% efficiency. The battery is clamping the voltage at 12.2 with a .36 amp return or around 4.4 watts going back to the battery and 6.58 watts being dissipated by the load or 10.98 watts total.

[Turion]

Uh Oh

Bi,
I guess you are going to have to call the free energy police and report me then, because as far as I am concerned there is no law or rule or regulation that “requires” me to prove ANYTHING to you, just as there is no law that requires you to build anything I suggest. If you don’t want to build the generator, DONT. But don’t come whining around for help in the future because you had your chance.

I am assuming you believe the circuit you built on my recommendation is nothing special? Are you even LOOKING at your own data? I want you to remember this moment.

[bistander]

Your test

...
To answer your question, yes, I did test this circuit. ...

So what were the results/data? Input and output powers?

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Builds

Then BUILD one. I did a whole video on exactly HOW. But for testing, just attach a rotor to your razor scooter motor and use one coil. Measure the amp draw of the motor without the coil close. Then put the coil close to the rotor and measure the amp draw again. Then set up magnetic opposition so the rotor is attracted by the iron in the coil core but repelled by a magnet equally and measure the amp draw again. Logic, and further testing should show you that you now have a rotor that is BASICALLY unaffected by the iron in the coil core, so no matter HOW MANY coils you add, the cost to run your motor does NOT go up. Now wind that coil so it speeds the motor up under load and the amp draw of the motor actually goes DOWN, and you will see what is possible. These are NOT difficult experiments, and they absolutely prove what I have been saying. Then it becomes a matter of how big a generator you can afford to build.

I have built and/or tested dozens of motors and generators, from a few watts to over 200 kilowatts. I have never seen a hint of over-unity. You claim you can do it. You're making the claim. It is up to you to provide evidence or proof. Not me. You will not believe my build and data shows it does not work. It is useless for me to build to prove/disprove your claim. I've shown references where it is clearly stated the burden of proof resides with the one making the claim. Show me your over-unity generator in operation with metered output and input power. Just a simple request.

bi

[Turion]

Then BUILD one. I did a whole video on exactly HOW. But for testing, just attach a rotor to your razor scooter motor and use one coil. Measure the amp draw of the motor without the coil close. Then put the coil close to the rotor and measure the amp draw again. Then set up magnetic opposition so the rotor is attracted by the iron in the coil core but repelled by a magnet equally and measure the amp draw again. Logic, and further testing should show you that you now have a rotor that is BASICALLY unaffected by the iron in the coil core, so no matter HOW MANY coils you add, the cost to run your motor does NOT go up. Now wind that coil so it speeds the motor up under load and the amp draw of the motor actually goes DOWN, and you will see what is possible. These are NOT difficult experiments, and they absolutely prove what I have been saying. Then it becomes a matter of how big a generator you can afford to build.

[Matthew Jones]

The first boost converter is actually running surprisingly efficient. Efficiency is power out/power in, not current ratio or whatever you used to get 25%.

Output voltage on the first converter needed to be adjusted up to about 35V to get the system running smoothly. That number, 35.xx stares me in the face on the red led on top of the converter whenever it is running. For some reason I neglected to copy the exact value while collecting data last night. I probably have photo of it from test 2 on my phone. I'll check later. But for now, let's use 35V.

Converter input power = 12.2V * 6.78A = 82.7W.
Converter output power =35V * 2.18A = 76.3W.
Efficiency = 76.3W / 82.7W = 92.3%.

I charged the battery last night and will run another test today. I'll get all the data on that converter and double check. But its efficiency is about as good as you'll see at that boost and power level for a <$50 device.

Regards,

bi

Then where is the 4.47 amps on the ground side coming from?

See your mixing numbers. The converter is set to 35 volt but under runtime you measure 20.4 volt out of the motor. Now stock motors don't have off time and usually have pretty low resistance, so the output voltage should be pretty close to the input voltage. You may want to throw a diode on the output of the motor towards the battery. That may bring that 20.4 up because it will isolate that battery a bit.

Now remember your dealing with asymmetrical system you are not taking the power out of the motor and dropping to ground in the converter so there should only be switching losses on the ground leg. 4.47 amps is too much for switching loss. Maybe 10% or less of the input current.

So looking at the situation there is 3 answers that become possible the first is:
* 4.47 amps on the ground leg is a bad measurement.
* The boost converter under load drops out of the set efficiency and only under asymmetric behavior .
* The boost converter is working so well that the asymmetric behavior is near doubling the total output power on the board. Add it all up.
12v * 6.78a = 81.36w input
12v * 4.47a = 53.64w output to ground
35v * 2.18a = 76.30w output to load.

(53.64w + 76.3w) / 81.36w = COP1.59

Now myself I don't discount any of those answers, but experience tells me the simplest answer is usually the real answer.

So you gotta find that answer. And these kinds of thing happen. I used to have full head of hair and now I am mostly bald. Not a coincidence

Just some suggestion:
You might put the ground output back to the battery, the converter may have sensor on the output side that is making it drop off.
Remove the motor and use a known resistor to see if the same set of circumstances shows up.
If this keeps happening put the boost converter in a box, somewhere safe and only break out to reverse engineer the schematic. Or attempt to contact the company for a schematic. This is now a really valuable item.

Matt

[bistander]

Generator

... it is the GENERATOR that determines success or failure. ...to have a generator that outputs significantly MORE power than is needed to run it. ...

BINGO!!! That's what I want to see. The generator with higher output power than input power.

[bistander]

Converter efficiency

The biggest problem is that first boost converter. Its not even running 25% efficiemt.
...

The first boost converter is actually running surprisingly efficient. Efficiency is power out/power in, not current ratio or whatever you used to get 25%.

Output voltage on the first converter needed to be adjusted up to about 35V to get the system running smoothly. That number, 35.xx stares me in the face on the red led on top of the converter whenever it is running. For some reason I neglected to copy the exact value while collecting data last night. I probably have photo of it from test 2 on my phone. I'll check later. But for now, let's use 35V.

Converter input power = 12.2V * 6.78A = 82.7W.
Converter output power =35V * 2.18A = 76.3W.
Efficiency = 76.3W / 82.7W = 92.3%.

I charged the battery last night and will run another test today. I'll get all the data on that converter and double check. But its efficiency is about as good as you'll see at that boost and power level for a <$50 device.

Regards,

bi

[Matthew Jones]

Here are all the current values and some voltages. Hope that helps. I attempted to tune close to the last test but didn't hit the mark exactly so don't mix data between tests. Configuration and components are the same.

The biggest problem is that first boost converter. Its not even running 25% efficient. If your not returning any power to the ground leg all you have is
switching costs running on the ground side. That might be 10% of what you'll see on the positive side.
Generally for 50 watt load I see 200-400 milliamp depending on the impedance in load.

If I buy those things I buy DROK brand. I have always good with there stuff unless you ask to much from it.

Nice try BI I hope you don't give up.

Matt

[Turion]

Test setup

Bi,
Thank you so much for correcting my use of terms once again. It's a good thing you have THAT skill, because the numbers you gave for what you built would indicate that it is nowhere near COP>1. You still have everything working against you. With an inefficient boost converter, a stock motor, no speed up under load and magnetic drag from the generator, you are seeing what MOST people will see. Which is why they give up. Even WITH a Matt motor in that circuit it is the GENERATOR that determines success or failure. Without something unique, you get a system that may run for a longer period of time, but it is still going to run down. The only way to make up for losses in the system is to have a generator that outputs significantly MORE power than is needed to run it. The 3 battery system is an incredible assist to that, because it recycles a LOT of the energy the motor uses, but it cannot solve ALL the problems. Until you eliminate ALL of those issues, you will never get there.

To answer your question, yes, I did test this circuit. I used the vertically mounted Matt motor I showed in a video in post #3895. The rotor I used is more than an inch thick, mounted on the motor shaft, and has magnets mounted facing out, so I could lay the coils flat out from the rotor like spokes on a wheel. The magnets I used are the kind with the hole in the middle, and the rotor is drilled and threaded so the magnets are BOLTED on. This is all stuff from one of my earlier designs of the generator that I have collected over the years. I had to lower my top plate to mount the coils that way.

To offset the attraction of the rotor magnet to the iron cores of the coils, directly opposite each coil I had a piece of 1" PVC pipe clamped down. It had an end cap on the end farthest away from the rotor with one of those threaded units I showed in my video of the generator attached on the inside of the end cap. You have to use the FLAT end caps, not the rounded kind, and sometimes they are hard to find. A hole was drilled in the end cap, and a threaded rod inserted and threaded in, that had another of those little threaded units on it, so I could adjust it in and out to neutralize the magnetic attraction. A 1" magnet was stuck on the end and epoxied in place. My coils (3 of them) also caused the motor to speed up under load. That setup will hold 3, 5, or 7 coils. I only had 3 left over 1" neos in the drawer to use in opposition, so I only ran it with 3 coils.

Using the pulsed motor, the benefit of speed up under load, and the magnetic neutralization, I saw what I needed to see. It is a very SIMPLE example of what we have been talking about.

Most of my shop is in the back of the pickup or on the trailer as we are moving in at 8:00 on Monday morning, and the shop is actually the first thing we are setting up in the new place as I will be rebuilding the kitchen cabinets to accommodate some changes to the kitchen we are making. We are not really "moving in" until the kitchen remodel is done, and I need my shop set up to do that. As I unload stuff, I will try and set those parts aside and maybe sometime next week I can shoot a video to show that specific setup running, but I make no promises. If my wife catches me playing with toys when there are 2000 more important things on my Honey-Do list, I will live to seriously regret it. And my birthday is this week. Don't want her taking my presents back! I won't even have a bench in the new shop to set it up on!