3 Battery Generating System

[bistander]

Work again

... I understand that watts is a measure of power, but it is also the measure by which we calculate how much was used by the load, therefore “generally” it is a way of showing how much work was done or rather how much energy was used by the load. ...

Sorry, but it does not seem like you understand. Work is energy. "Watts" is neither work nor energy. Both work and energy are expressed in joules, which is equivalent to watt seconds, and often expressed in terms of watt hours, or kilowatt hours. The unit "watt" never applies to work or energy. Actually the power (in watts) is rate at which work is done, also it is the rate at which energy is converted.

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

Confusion

I_ron,

I wasn’t talking about you and I didn’t mean to offend you. I have NO PROBLEM with people trying different things. I have learned WAY more from blowing things up than from getting them right. And even though you tried something different, it’s WORKING, so who could argue with that?

I was talking about people here and on other forums who make things that can’t really even be called replications, and use them to “prove” that this doesn’t work. What YOU showed was that a coil CAN cause the motor to accelerate when the coil is put under load. BEAUTIFUL. There are lots of sizes and shapes of coils that will do this. The more different things we try, the more we will learn. The only time trying something different than the examples I have given will bother me is when they are used to try and prove this doesn’t work

Bi,
Once again I substituted watts for watt hours. I know the difference. I generally say something is running on 20 watts, knowing that is not a measure over time and therefore not a measure of work, but time is assumed in that statement. I will NEVER be technically correct. It just isn’t that important to me. What IS important is building devices that work.

Wantomake,
You haven’t done anything to offend ME. If I said something that offended You, it wasn’t intentional. I know how hard you have worked on this. I know you have seen successes. We can all only do so much with the resources we have so if you felt like I was putting you down because you aren’t doing a perfect replication, that was NOT my intention. My only frustration is with people who use imperfect replications to claim this doesn’t work. That has NEVER been you.

Dave

Today is my day for screw ups.
Oh wait, what day is it?
I think Tomorrow is my day for screw ups. So we all have THAT to look forward to.

[i_ron]

Dave, this is my last time to answer people on this thread. It seems I only stir up the bee's nest here. I understand why you want to let this thread die now.

Lot's of buzzing and stinging plus you wind up explaining same things over and over.

My bad,
wantomake
I'll just stick to my usual morning chin scratching and coffee.

I think you are taking that the wrong way. Continue your posting as your posts are respected and appreciated.

many thanks

Ron

[i_ron]

People just slap crap together and when it doesn’t work it’s MY fault, and I am pretty sick of that.

Gee Dave I didn't mean to set you off.

Here I post a successful coil replication and expected a pat on the back???

Ron

[Turion]

Efficiency

If I used the word efficiency, I was mistaken. My intention was to compare the two systems not to show the efficiency of one. I understand that watts is a measure of power, but it is also the measure by which we calculate how much was used by the load, therefore “generally” it is a way of showing how much work was done or rather how much energy was used by the load. And yes, the energy used by the motor plus the energy used by the light as load on the generator are two different things, but when COMPARING the two systems I have shown you the best way. OR, you could simply measure the amount going out of the generator to the light in both systems until the light quits burning. If people would spend less time arguing terms and more time building everyone would be a lot farther along.

[bistander]

Work

...
The amount of work done by the motor in watts plus the amount of watts of power produced by the generator is the TOTAL amount of work DONE by the system.
...
Now add the two together and tell me what the COP of the system is.
...

Hi Turion,

This is fundamentally incorrect. The "work" done by the system is one or the other, not both, depending on how you define the "system". Therefore, it is wrong to "add" these figures to calculate efficiency.

You are functionally incorrect calling "watts" work. Watt is the unit for power. Watt hour is the unit for energy. Work is energy, so has units of watt hours, or watt seconds, or joules.

Regards,

bi

[wantomake]

Now I understand

Dave, this is my last time to answer people on this thread. It seems I only stir up the bee's nest here. I understand why you want to let this thread die now.

Lot's of buzzing and stinging plus you wind up explaining same things over and over.

My bad,
wantomake
I'll just stick to my usual morning chin scratching and coffee.

[Turion]

Instructions

Wel, the only reason I have changed the instructions at all is because it took some experimenting to see how long the wires needed to be to fill up a coil bobbin.

60 strands would STILL be the best. 24 strands is just too hard for MOST people to wind, so I settled on 12 as the best minimum number that most people would have success with. Other than that, the instructions have been pretty much the same.

Wind with 12 strands in parallel. After THAT it comes down to whether you want voltage (put MORE strands in series) or amperage (keep as many strands as possible in a simple parallel configuration) and whether or not you can speed up under load with all 12 strands in parallel or not. If you CAN'T you will have to put some wires in series. That’s YOU configuring the coil to speed up under load with the rotor and rpm you are using. If we were ALL using the exact same size rotor all turned by the Matt motor running on 24 volts I could give you exact numbers. But people all use whatever rotor they have run by whatever motor they have on however many batteries they have, so my goal was to have people wind a coil that had SOME adjustment to it to try and get as many people as possible to be successful. People just slap crap together and when it doesn’t work it’s MY fault, and I am pretty sick of that.

I used to just shake my head at the pieces of **** people put together and claimed were a School Girl Motor. I’m surprised John B didn’t just lose his mind. They cobble together a piece of crap and then blamed John because it didn’t work like he said it would.

We had the same thing happen when Luc attempted to replicate the 3 Battery system. We TOLD him it would never work with the batteries he was using and the stock motor he was using and his response was that was all he could afford, and if it worked he would spend the money on the right stuff. But he goes right ahead and tests it and his conclusion, which is shared on the Internet, is that it doesn’t work. Really? What a surprise! That’s like testing the theory of flight by gluing feathers on your arms and getting ready to jump off a building. When we tell you it won’t work you explain that feathers are all you can afford to test with, but if it does work you will buy the parts to build an airplane.

There are a few folks out there I wish WOULD glue feathers on their arms and jump off a building. I would even volunteer to help with the gluing, and maybe give them a small push to assist their flight.

If you run the Matt motor on the boost module like Matt showed at a higher voltage, connected to a generator that is putting out power, and then buck it back down, you ALREADY have a COP of 2.5 WUTHOUT the output of the generator coils added in. When the generator goes UNDER LOAD and the amp draw of the motor goes DOWN and the SPEED goes UP, that COP goes UP, and the output of the generator goes up due to the increase in speed. That speed up under load creates a loop effect, which can significantly change results. When you add in the output of the generator coils the COP goes up again. DO THE MATH! Math does not lie. PLUS, these systems actually INCREASE the capacity of the battery to hold a charge. Use a battery analyzer. Use a scope, use your meters.

Because trying to measure what is in the batteries can lead you way far into the woods, the BEST comparison test I have found is the following:

Charge up your single battery to full charge. Connect the motor with a generator attached running a small light as a load. Put a kilowatt meter on the motor to measure how much work was done by the motor. ALSO get a measure of how many watts of work went into the load with a second kilowatt meter. Run until the light goes OUT. You now have a ratio of how much work the motor has to do to Turn the generator and do a specific amount of work lighting the light. The motor consumed so many watts to get the generator to PRODUCE so many watts.
The amount of work done by the motor in watts plus the amount of watts of power produced by the generator is the TOTAL amount of work DONE by the system.

Now charge that ONE battery back up and run Matt’s circuit with a boost module, the Matt motor and a buck module. Now you can’t really measure the watts of work done by the motor running between the positives, but that doesn’t matter, because you already established a ratio. So now just measure the watts going into the light bulb load until the light goes out. Now using your ratio, you can figure out how many watts the motor SHOULD have consumed for the generator to produce that much power. Now add the two together and tell me what the COP of the system is.

Until you have done THAT experiment you really do not understand what you have here. But someday you will remember “I told you so”

[i_ron]

The RV is not going to ever speed up. What happens is the input draw goes down

The coil works...I am confirming Dave's coil instructions!!!

Ron

A word of explanation on Hector's Rotoverter... It is a 5 HP 3 phase motor that is configured to run on single phase 60 Hz 120 volts.

It runs at a synchronist speed of 1760 RPM

If you place a load on it the speed remains the same but the input draw goes up so as to maintain this speed (within reason)

If you reduce the load then the input amp draw goes down.

I have tested many many coils over the years and it is a good tool to study the coil efficiency. Previously I have never seen a coil that has reduced the draw.

Now in the case of David's multistrand coil... the coil provides an output of 5 watts while reducing the draw by 5 watts.

Project that out. With 11 more coils I would have a 60 watt output while running at ZERO watts input. (The real world does work like that but it makes a good illustration.)

Ron

[i_ron]

Dave explains better than I can. Here is how I connect in series then parallel.

[ATTACH]21035[/ATTACH]

Was able to get speed up under load. I noticed in your picture you use same connecting bars I do. You may need to try different 2,3,4,or 6 in series like Turion posted.

wantomake
EDIT: Sorry the picture is low quality.

Thanks for the picture.

Just to be clear here is Dave's instructions (they change from day to day)

Here are the best instructions I can give:
Wrap a coil with 12 wires in parallel. You have 12 beginnings of wires and 12 endings of wires.
Take the end of wire one and connect it to the beginning of wire two. Take the end of wire three and attach to the beginning of wire four. Take the end of wire five and attach to the beginning of wire six. And so on. All this is done AFTER the coil is completely wound with the 12 strands.*

When you are done making those connections, you will have the beginnings of SIX longer wires and the endings of six longer wires. Now connect all the beginnings of the wires together and all the ends of the wires together.

You are winding them in parallel, connecting them in series, and then putting your series wound wires in parallel.

Depending on the SPEED of rotation, you might need to put three or four in series instead of only two. In that case you wind up with fewer wires at the last step to put in parallel again. That is why starting with 60 wires is best, but 24 will work and so will 12. Multiples of 12 is best because it gives you the MOST combinations. But ALL CONNECTIONS are made after the coil is wound with at least 12 strands and 24 is better and 60 would be best. This also gives you MORE CONTROL of the output of the coil. The more strands you have in the final stage the more amps you have. The longer the strands in the final stage the more voltage you have, so to some extent you can control the coil output with the connections you make between the wires. At minimum you will need to end up with half the number of wires you started with to get speed up under load, but after that it MAY work and you can decide what connections to make to control your output. It may NOT work because of your rotor speed and you will have to put MORE wires in series than just two. I hope this all makes sense.

It all also assumes you have enough wires length to your strands. 12 strands a foot long is NOT going to work. I gave 12 strands 100-150 feet long of #23 as an example because I KNOW it works on a SPECIFIC sized bobbin with a SPECIFIC sized core. What you do with that information is up to you.*

So I have wound the coil with 12 wires at 160 feet long. As a first step I did 6 and 6 in parallel... it is my intention to try 4,4,4 and 3,3,3,3

Now what some seem to have missed here is my coil works.

The RV is not going to ever speed up. What happens is the input draw goes down

The coil works...I am confirming Dave's coil instructions!!!

Ron

[Turion]

More info

It’s really two things. Capacity of the coil and speed of the passing magnet. According to Tesla’s patent you have THREE ways of getting a coil to speed up under load if it isn’t already. The first is to increase rotor rpm. Every coil will speed up under load at the correct frequency (speed of passing magnet). The second way is to increase the capacity of the coil. There are three ways of doing that. The first is simply to add MORE wire. More wire to store flux means more capacity. The other method is to wind coils in parallel but connect the wires in series. This, according to Tesla, creates capacity between the wires, which absorbs the flux. The last method is to simply ADD a capacitor to the coil. If you don’t understand WHY this increased capacity is important... what you are trying to do is provide a storage place for the flux so it takes longer for the iron core to turn into an electromagnet that is repelling the approaching magnet on the rotor. If you can get it just right, the rotor magnet is centered over the coil before this happens, so instead of pushing away the approaching magnet, it is pushing away the magnet that has just passed top dead center and you get that little extra kick of speed. Now if you happen to have a motor controller, you can lower the speed of the motor to REDUCE that kick to zero. Why do that? Because you have also just reduced the AMP draw of the motor and achieved the point of MOST efficiency.

So you can get speed up under load with one magnet on your rotor and a very small coil if your rpm is great enough. If you are NOT getting speed up under load, something has to change. Personally I have NOT seen speed up under load at less than 1800 rpm. With three wires of #23 each 800 feet long, it is 2800 rpm. I remember when I first began this project. I only had four coils on my setup and everything was working GREAT!!!! I was so excited! I added two more coils and suddenly it would NOT speed up under load anymore. I spent forever trying to figure out why. I wound coils thinking something had gone wrong with them. Finally I went back to 4 coils and it all worked again. I finally realized the magnetic drag of the additional coils was dropping my rpm below 2800, and so that’s why it did not work. At that time I didn’t KNOW I HAD a minimum rpm at which it would work. I thought once you had a magic coil that would speed up under load, it would always work. I forgot to lean to the left and I wasn’t wearing my pointy hat. Grave errors.

You guys all know WAY more than I knew when I started this. You should ALL be able to get a coil to speed up under load at this point.

[wantomake]

how to

Thanks for the come back!

Can you explain the difference please?

Ron

Dave explains better than I can. Here is how I connect in series then parallel.

QuickCopperExport.jpg

Was able to get speed up under load. I noticed in your picture you use same connecting bars I do. You may need to try different 2,3,4,or 6 in series like Turion posted.

wantomake
EDIT: Sorry the picture is low quality.

[Turion]

Minimums

12 strands of #23 each 253’ in length. That should fill a standard coil bobbin and allows many variable combinations of wires in series. Either 2, 3, 4 or 6. The more in parallel the more amps, the longer the wire the more volts. Let’s you see what combination gives you speed up under load with YOUR rotor with the number of magnets you are using and the rpm you are running at. That is assuming you have a big enough rotor with enough magnets running at a high enough rpm to get the reaction in the first place. Which is why I gave the example of a 10” rotor with six magnets turning at 2800 rpm and promised NOTHING if you aren’t at those minimums. Not that it WON’T work, but I haven’t seen it work, so would not claim that it does or encourage others to build something that I’m not sure will work.

A point I should make, Matt had a small rotor with only two magnets on it, and his coils (both of them) would speed up under load. I don’t remember the length of wire or rpm. I built some small coils that would speed up under load. The first LARGE coil I built that did what I wanted was 3 strands of #23 each 1,000 feet long. I shortened them to 800 feet to reduce the voltage output to 120-130 volts AC.

[i_ron]

Wow Ron,
Thought everyone was on vacation!!

Not sure by your description that your winding will produce much output. We used a different winding with the 12 wire coil.

wantomake

Thanks for the come back!

Can you explain the difference please?

Ron

[wantomake]

Vacation???

Wow Ron,
Thought everyone was on vacation!!

Not sure by your description that your winding will produce much output. We used a different winding with the 12 wire coil.

wantomake