3 Battery Generating System

[thaelin]

I would suggest using the 18650 3.7 volt Lion batts that have the attached button. This will allow you to charge them correctly and to also shut them down if they fall below the safe level. A bit spendy but worth it in safety. This addon may be the thing that saves you from a fire. In addition to not being able to put them out, the fumes from it are also very toxic. Just not something you want to be closed in with. Great W/kg rating but dangerous if not used in the prescribed way. This is never going to be a safe way. Vent the bat pack outside and in a fire proof container for your peace of mind.

T, you are a never ending source of info and ideas. Keep up the good work. I follow you close.

[ewizard]

Turion, thanks for all your continued research and work. Link for the video in your last post says "video unavailable".

[Turion]

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...7&v=ludLU4_6ZD

werjefelt
Magnetic neutralization

[bistander]

Info

The 12 volt, 7.2 amp high discharge rate hour LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery is designed to be a drop in replacement for standard sealed lead acid batteries in UPS, alarm, and other similar applications

Quote from Amazon link provided by Turion. And the electronics packaged in the battery is the BMS, Battery Management System. You'd be hard pressed to find a commercial product with Lithium battery which doesn't have a BMS or sometimes called a PCM, from cell phones to power tools to electric cars. The BMS protects the Lithium cells from overcharge and undercharge and also equalizes the cells, as well as often communicating with the charger, other batteries or the operating system. BMSs can range from basic (somewhat simple) to very complex.

bi

[Turion]

Cells

I was considering each “stack” as a cell. Once again terminology is an issue. When I took that battery all apart, I ended up with two in series plus two in series, connected in parallel for 6+ volts.

Then four in series plus four in series connected in parallel for 12+ volts. Yes, there are twelve cells. You want to say four groups of three. I put them together differently so I could get the potential I wanted. I left them in six stacks of two, connected in series. Since there were six stacks, I assumed each cell was two volts because I didn’t pay much attention to the way they were connected. After all, I was tearing them apart. Now that I actually measure them I see the voltage is a little over 3 volts per cell.

So I have a 6 volt potential difference to work with using them the way I am. Enough to run the razor scooter motor slowly.

[Pot head]

Men

I understand this, one knows and so does the other.
One shows but another doubts.
I think well of both of you enough to write this.
Sharing is caring and knife hand or knife mouth,
just Nazi’s up everything.
No accusations from me, I learn from youse guys!
Now, if there are any questions for the builder, please raise your hand!

The battery in question, what exactly is its possible uses besides being a battery that can be charged or not?
The electronics inside, is it simple cap stuff?
Thank youse guys!

[bistander]

6 cells not

Here is the photo. This picture is when I first took it apart and realized I would have to remove all the electronics to use it in the single battery circuit I showed here. Right now it is broken down even further. But at least this shows it is made up of six cells as I said. Got it on Amazon. Don’t believe anything there indicated six cells.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07BH...b_b_asin_title

I have to say bi, this is why you drive me crazy. I have this battery sitting in front of me. I KNOW it is six cells, yet you come here and quote something out of some book and base all your opinions on that rather than what is actually on the bench. Have you been lied to all your life so you can’t trust anything anybody says? Why would I bother to lie about how many cells my battery has, or is it that you just can’t wrap your head around the fact that things can be different from something you read somewhere?

Hi Turion,

Thanks for posting the photo.



What you have is a 12 cell battery in a 3p4s configuration, meaning 3 cells in parallel and 4 of those wired in series. Likely consisting of standard 26650 cells, 26mm dia x 65mm long. Functionally behaving as a 4 in series battery but at 3 times the capacity of a single cell.

You can clearly see, in the photo, bus bars spot welded to the ends of 3 cells on the positive putting those 3 cells in parallel and similarly, on the negative.

Regards,

bi

edit: You said

quote something out of some book

. I didn't quote anything. I stated fact that I have learned from years of study and hands-on experience. When I do quote someone, I try to always indicate such.

[Turion]

Ohoto

Here is the photo. This picture is when I first took it apart and realized I would have to remove all the electronics to use it in the single battery circuit I showed here. Right now it is broken down even further. But at least this shows it is made up of six cells as I said. Got it on Amazon. Don’t believe anything there indicated six cells.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07BH...b_b_asin_title

I have to say bi, this is why you drive me crazy. I have this battery sitting in front of me. I KNOW it is six cells, yet you come here and quote something out of some book and base all your opinions on that rather than what is actually on the bench. Have you been lied to all your life so you can’t trust anything anybody says? Why would I bother to lie about how many cells my battery has, or is it that you just can’t wrap your head around the fact that things can be different from something you read somewhere?

And by the way, MOST of the LifePo4 batteries you see for sale on line are in the shape of a rectangle, not a square, which leads me to believe they have more cells in one direction than the other. In other words I would tend to believe MOST of the ones for sale are composed of six cells, unless, of course, they are square in shape.

[bistander]

No photo

That may be typical, but it is not what I have. As you can see from the photo, six cells, not four, so the voltages per cell are different from your specs. ...

Interesting. I see no photo. Please post it or link to a spec/sales page for your battery. Thanks. bi

[Turion]

LifePo4

That may be typical, but it is not what I have. As you can see from the photo, six cells, not four, so the voltages per cell are different from your specs.

Good thought about the sand. I have a bag I will designate just for that purpose and put it in a five gallon plastic bucket to make using it easier.

On another note, I got six coils wound so far for my generator. Was going to adapt my coil tester, but realized it only has six 1” magnets on the rotor. So I will have to find all the pieces for my other machine. With that in mind, I am driving into the city on Thursday to pick up a new base plate and four pieces of plastic for the bearing mount that I simply cannot find. With six coils I should be able to show COP>1 by a long ways and as I get more coils wound and put in place the output will just go up while the input remains fairly constant. The machine I am putting together only holds 10 coils instead of the 12 my big machine holds, but that machine is in Santa Clara at my machinist having some things tweaked, and then over to an independent lab for testing. What I am putting together should still put out between 1600-1700 watts. That will have to do. That should be enough to prove the bigger one Dora’s what I say it will do.

[bistander]

LiFePO4

...
I only have one LifePo4 12 volt battery. But it is composed of 6 two volt cells. This lets me run a three battery system using four cells on one side for 8 volts and two cells on the other side for 4 volts, which gives me a 4 volt potential difference I can run a VERY small dc motor on. Because of their cost, I wanted to invest a little time playing with them before spending the money on several batteries. So far I really like what I see.

LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) cells are considered to operate with a nominal voltage of 3.2 V/cell. Recommend end of charge is 3.65 V/cell. Typically 4 of these cells are used in series for a 12 V battery when replacing 12V lead acid batteries.

They shouldn't be allowed to discharge below 2.0 V/cell. Of the various types of Lithium Ion cells, LiFePO4 is about the safest, but also perhaps one of the most difficult to properly manage in multicell batteries. They can easily be damaged and rendered useless, and occasionally catch fire. I've seen a few incidents.

Be careful. Have a bucket 1/3 full of sand for a smoking or flaming cell. You can't put a Lithium fire out, but you can save your house.

bi

[Turion]

LifePo4

LifePo4 batteries, because they accept the charge so much better than a standard battery seem to charge just fine with a stock motor running between them. So they seem to take the charge at ANY frequency and charge even without the higher voltage. SO FAR By higher voltage I mean two sides with different voltages will equalize without the losses to impedance you see in lead acid batteries, so it LOOKS like you don’t always have to have 2.5 volts over the battery standing voltage to get it to charge correctly.

I only have one LifePo4 12 volt battery. But it is composed of 6 two volt cells. This lets me run a three battery system using four cells on one side for 8 volts and two cells on the other side for 4 volts, which gives me a 4 volt potential difference I can run a VERY small dc motor on. Because of their cost, I wanted to invest a little time playing with them before spending the money on several batteries. So far I really like what I see.

[altrez]

Now if you use LifePo4 batteries you don't need Matt's motor and it is hit or miss whether you even need the boost module. The impedance is almost non existent.

Hello Dave,

Can you explain this a bit more for me?

Thank you,

-Altrez

[Turion]

3 Battery system

That is why the 3 battery system IN THEORY works perfectly.
Two batteries in series give you 24 volts. Then you put the third battery in parallel with these two, and run the load between the positives. As the voltage tries to equalize between the 24 volt side and the 12 volt side the motor runs and consumes almost nothing.

But in REALITY there are losses. What is REALLY lost here is that the potential between 24 volts and 12 volts is only 12 volts. You can't charge a 12 volt battery with 12 volts. To charge a battery CORRECTLY you must have at minimum 2.5 volts over the standing voltage, and you need some amps, and you need to PULSE the battery you are charging to give it some off time to absorb the pulse.
Without all that in place, you have a total LACK of efficiency. Plus there is IMPEDANCE in the battery that resists charging, and the smaller the battery, the higher the resistance. Big batteries work best. But you STILL need the pulse and the higher voltage. The boost module we showed gives you that higher voltage. Matt's motor gives you the pulse at the right frequency that the boost module does NOT. Now if you use LifePo4 batteries you don't need Matt's motor and it is hit or miss whether you even need the boost module. The impedance is almost non existent.

[Turion]

A footnote

I have been doing these experiments for years. To charge a 12 volt lead acid battery you must hit it with 2 volts higher than its standing voltage, with some amps, at the proper frequency. It has tremendous resistance to overcome, and much of the energy put into the battery is wasted trying to charge it. I challenge you to take a dead battery, put it on a battery charger to charge it, and connect the battery charger to a kilowatt meter to see just how much energy was consumed charging that battery to a full charge. MOST of the energy is wasted in overcoming the natural barriers in the battery. The smaller the battery the higher the wall you have to try to push energy over.

This is why MOST people have no luck with the 3 Battery system. They have no idea what they are doing. If they tried it with LifePo4 batteries it would blow their mind. If they could get it to work. LifePo4 batteries have internal electronics that monitor each cell and they do NOT like beige charged on the 3 battery system. All the electronics have to be removed, and they have to be closely monitored. Sensors and a simple Arduino can be used to do that, but that kind of research is beyond most folks here for one reason or another.

Still, once you understand what is going on with batteries and how to use them to your advantage, amazing things can happen.