3 Battery Generating System

[Turion]

I was puling too much load and not allowing the primaries to receive anything to charge up. This will take a bit of careful management to understand how the system works, and getting gauges on everything is critical. I am in the process of doing that now, so I can make sure there is enough getting to the primaries to keep them charged up, but not enough to overcharge them. I will take THOSE kinds of problems any day!!

Dave

[ewizard]

Hi Turion, First video very cool! However second video I think I caught a booboo. You have the 3 red meters in a row all the same but the one which is reading a negative 15 volts on the dead battery I noticed the red and black leads where they plug into THAT meter are the opposite of the other 2 meters - that is the red and black are reversed compared to the other 2 meters. I think that would explain the negative value of 15 volts on the dead battery if I'm right.

Still all very impressive!

[Turion]

you are correct!! Good!! Means I didn't ruin the meter! That is a load off my mind. It means basically the system still works like it did before. When you flip the switch you should read about 24 volts on battery three, which is really a reading of the difference between battery three and the stack of two batteries. As battery three charges up some, that difference becomes less and less. At some point the "black hole" of a dead battery begins to fill up, and this allows the motor to use some of the current to begin to run ( usually at around 18 volts) on the meter on battery three. I haven't seen that with UFO's motor yet. Every time I have had to connect another motor to get that current draw, and then UFO's motor would start and I could disconnect the other motor.

My motor to use as a generator came in today, so I will be able to balance the load on battery three with the load on the motor. It all seems to be coming together. Now I need some folks to replicate this setup.

Dave

[Turion]

Here is a schematic. I am trying to run tests today, so will try to get everyone's questions answered tonight.

Dave

[Turion]

Today's Adventures

Two things.
I couldn't get the setup to work today and it was freaking me out and I was in a total state of panic. Then I decided to push everything to the side on the bench, watch my three videos and build from what I could see on the videos. The very first thing was, I remembered I had just charged all my batteries, so I started with fully charged batteries and it worked. So that may be a really important secret key. If you do not have completely charged primaries there is not enough of a potential difference to make the magic happen. When they ARE charged you can KEEP them charged or even raise the charge in them, but if they are NOT fully charged, you can't get enough of a potential difference to start the process.

I could tell there was something wrong today, and then I remembered what happened to me yesterday that got this all started. I hooked up UFO's motor and it wouldn't start up, as sometimes happens. I have told everyone. Hook up the motor and wait. It should start eventually. Sometimes you can spin it by hand to get it started if you are impatient. Well, I was REALLY impatient, and I thought there might be something wrong with my setup, like a bad wire, so I had a 12 volt fan and I touched the connections where UFO’s motor was connected between the battery positives. It started up and so did UFO’s motor. When I tried this today, the fan motor would start, but UFO’s motor would NOT. Which made me realize that maybe I didn’t have enough amps in my battery to kick that motor over. I ran it way down yesterday when I left the basement with too much load on the motor. SO that is ANOTHER reason I felt like it needed to be charged, and it worked.

To answer questions I have been asked…Yes, you still need a dead battery in position three. That’s what makes the whole thing work. But with UFO’s motor I don’t believe it is nearly as critical a component. A drained (good) battery most probably will work. I don’t know. Need to test it and find out.

Earth Ground. I haven’t tried this, but have always wanted to. The gas lines and water pipes run right over me head only a couple feet away. It would be real easy to connect to either of them.

[genessc]

Two things.
I couldn't get the setup to work today and it was freaking me out and I was in a total state of panic. Then I decided to push everything to the side on the bench, watch my three videos and build from what I could see on the videos. The very first thing was, I remembered I had just charged all my batteries, so I started with fully charged batteries and it worked. So that may be a really important secret key. If you do not have completely charged primaries there is not enough of a potential difference to make the magic happen. When they ARE charged you can KEEP them charged or even raise the charge in them, but if they are NOT fully charged, you can't get enough of a potential difference to start the process.

I could tell there was something wrong today, and then I remembered what happened to me yesterday that got this all started. I hooked up UFO's motor and it wouldn't start up, as sometimes happens. I have told everyone. Hook up the motor and wait. It should start eventually. Sometimes you can spin it by hand to get it started if you are impatient. Well, I was REALLY impatient, and I thought there might be something wrong with my setup, like a bad wire, so I had a 12 volt fan and I touched the connections where UFO’s motor was connected between the battery positives. It started up and so did UFO’s motor. When I tried this today, the fan motor would start, but UFO’s motor would NOT. Which made me realize that maybe I didn’t have enough amps in my battery to kick that motor over. I ran it way down yesterday when I left the basement with too much load on the motor. SO that is ANOTHER reason I felt like it needed to be charged, and it worked.

To answer questions I have been asked…Yes, you still need a dead battery in position three. That’s what makes the whole thing work. But with UFO’s motor I don’t believe it is nearly as critical a component. A drained (good) battery most probably will work. I don’t know. Need to test it and find out.

Earth Ground. I haven’t tried this, but have always wanted to. The gas lines and water pipes run right over me head only a couple feet away. It would be real easy to connect to either of them.

Howdy,

The load you are connecting in parallel over the 3rd battery is needed so that the series potential of batteries 1/2 has somewhere to go to "do work" and it probably is acting like a "primer" to get the flows moving. At least thats what I'd think given what I've read of this thread.

The fact that you initially get 24vdc measured over the dead battery implies that No current is flowing from batteries 1/2 thru battery 3... and that as you see that voltage drop from 24vdc down to 18vdc and thus the "motor" in series on the negative side of battery 3 starts turning, you now have current flowing in the system. Analog meters should confirm the current flow aspect of these statements.

The next thing I'd comment on is the ufomotor thingie... and the fact that using a smaller load (the fan) allowed the flows to be instantiated. It seems that to much current draw still causes the dipole to *maybe* become balanced in its asymetric state in relation to the 3rd dead battery...? Whats the ufomotor draw when driven by normal battery arrangements? And whats the fan draw? (looking for amps drawn for both the motor and the fan at same volt potential being noted by the series 1/2 batteries, which seems to be 24vdc, that should give us an idea of what sort of "initiator/primer" current needs to be drawn to initiate the process.)

The fact that you have to "recharge" the 1/2 batteries seems to point to the fact that they are still discharging the chemical induced currents even if they are returning to the original volt potential. They are losing their ability to supply current to the load circuit then right? Otherwise why would you have to charge them back up?

Anyways just some questions and thoughts. Thanks for sharing your benching efforts!

Regards,
Gene

[Turion]

Gene,
I had to recharge the batteries because I took the system out of balance by putting too much load on battery number three without increasing the load on the motor...and walked away to talk on the phone. The second I did that, I suddenly have an inverter pulling 200 watts of power out of my two primary batteries for however long I was gone, and it just sucked them down.

When the circuit was IN balance I ran those same kinds of loads off and on all day long and the voltage on the primaries either remained the same or went UP. There were a couple times it started going down and I just decreased the load on battery three. But I was watching it carefully.

Lots of amps are getting drawn by UFO's motor...more than any of my gauges or meters will measure, so I have ordered two 65 amp dc meters which should be here in a couple days. Then I will have more accurate data to present. I am putting gauges ALL OVER this setup, as you may be able to tell by the schematic I just posted. I am GOING to find out exactly what is happening here. If it is cold electricity, I probably won't be able to measure it, but if it is not, the circuit Matt put together is designed to measure the movement of standard electricity no matter what it is doing.

Dave

[genessc]

Dave,

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification. Is there a process that is documented for maintaining the draw/system "in balance"?

Have you tried putting two Dead batteries in series in battery position 3? I'm curious what that might do. I guess I can do that once I try and replicate the configuration. I'll print out your schematic, and if you can point me at the "process" on this thread, I can print that out as well to give this a try at home on the bench.

Is there any common aspect of the system that shows up when the system starts to go "out of balance"? And is the only way to "rebalance" it to reduce the load or increase the loading at the place where the UFO motor is placed?

Would a light bank work in that Motors place? (incandescents will run on DC as well as AC and are usually brighter off DC, which is why I'm asking.) Its also easier to assemble a light bank with switches to adjust the specific watt draw than it is to find a series of motors and switch those in or out. But if that load has to be a commutated load then it would have to be motors I suppose.

If it is only commutated motors that work as load, are the axles doing any work? ie driving a DC perm mag motor to keep an added charge over the batteries 1/2 to add to that self charging phenomena? or maybe using the DC motor as generator to fill caps that are periodically discharged?

Lastly are the batteries lead acid or Gel Cells or some other particular type? I have some 7aH gel cells and some old auto starting batteries kicking around but nothing deep cycle or AGM type. Just curious if I need to use a specific "type" of cell for this configuration.

I've done tesla switch and the bedini version of the same along with building other systems that use that configuration as the battery source to drive transistors (which work fine by the way) but none of those charged the source batteries (the series bank), tho they would charge the parallel bank which could then be swapped around to the series bank (reversing the battery positions) to get an extended run time. So I'm at least familiar with the idea of relative potentials based on how they are put in local context with each other.

Thanks for the clarification, look forward to some direction and I'll try and contribute constructively to the thread.

Take care,
Gene

[Turion]

Gene,
If you read post #1, the whole process is there step by step. Nothing has really changed from that. I use a light bank off of battery thee and a light bank off another motor as generator as my load on the motor. The light bank off battery three is AC off an inverter and the light bank off of the generator is dc that has been rectified. But we find that if you run a MOTOR off the dc on battery three as load, THAT motor may have some feedback into the system TOO if it is brushed dc. You can also split the NEGATIVES with a motor the same way we are splitting the positives. There's just a boat load of stuff to this system and we have not scratched the paint on the surface of it.

Dave

[genessc]

Dave,

One other idea... for the torque off the load motors axle... are you familiar with the RV Alternator? Its sorta useless in the rotoverter context but it would work to act as a dynamic loading against the torque of the driving prime mover motor by reverse inducing at speed (presuming the drive motor runs at least around 1800rpm or so) which can be adjusted on the fly by using a run capacitor switchable binary bank...

One can get a 3 phase motor of some horsepower rating and wire up just wires 1/2 to the cap bank and dial in some VARS to be in existence as the Alternator turns which will act to cause variable friction on the axles torque output...

Beyond that tho its not much use for "extracting useful energy" tho in this case it might be as when you extract from it in the Rotoverter config, the prime mover RV motors input amp draws goes up, which given the function you're looking to add as loading to the motor on this 3BGS system might be the specific desirable aspect of using this sort of thing as the axle load. (not to mention any old 3 phase motor can then potentially be made to be a generator for this system... ) Maybe a DC perm mag motor as the load for the 3bgs nose coupled to a 3ph AC motor with adjustable excitation capacity would allow for output to be adjusted as the loading needs to be increased to maintain the systems balance eh?

Anyways just a thought.

Take care,
Gene

P.S. how do I get my uploaded image to show up next to my name like you guys have? (oh and thanks for the Malcolm Reynolds quote... I dig me some firefly/serenity!)

[genessc]

Gene,
If you read post #1, the whole process is there step by step. Nothing has really changed from that. I use a light bank off of battery three and a light bank off another motor as generator as my load on the motor.

(is that both lamps in parallel or series off the motor as a generator?)

The light bank off battery three is AC off an inverter and the light bank off of the generator is dc that has been rectified.

(does that mean the motor as a generator is outputting AC? )

But we find that if you run a MOTOR off the dc on battery three as load, THAT motor may have some feedback into the system TOO if it is brushed dc. You can also split the NEGATIVES with a motor the same way we are splitting the positives. There's just a boat load of stuff to this system and we have not scratched the paint on the surface of it.

Dave

Thanks for the clarification, I'll draw it up and give it a go. I asked a couple more questions in parenthesis noted above as well if you can answer those.

That means the 4 x 25 watt lamps are all in parallel on a power strip into the inverter then, correct?

Yup, I have done the split positives on either rail, positive or negative, it doesn't appear to matter which side you draw from. I'll go print the details from post #1 as well for the starting point. I have a 12volt perm mag scooter motor which hopefully should work for this replication.

Have you formulated a theory on whats going on in the system?

Looks like, from your vids, that the batteries are all Sealed Lead Acid Gel Cells so I should be ok with the 7Ah gel cells I have on hand.

I look forward to more vids once you get the analog meters all wired up... they should do a better job of averaging the voltages than the DVM's tend to do.

Take care,
Gene

[Turion]

All my lights are wired in parallel.
The motor as generator will put out ac, and I rectify that to run the dc lights. I still have to rectify it to run the inverter to run the ac lights, because the inverter runs on dc. So no matter what, the ac from the motor as generator gets rectified.

Dave

[tachyoncatcher]

Alum Battery?

@FRC
Hey George,
Did that Alum battery continue to work for you with the 3BGS?
Thanks,
Randy

[Turion]

Waiting for some higher readout amp gauges before I blow up any more meters doing testing

Dave

[Rydan]

Turion's 3 battery system

Hey guys, I have been following your thread on he 3 battery system, and decided today, I would have a very basic crack at it.

The only thing in very large suply laying around my house is 9v batteries, so I used them.

I used 3x heavy duty woolworths essentials brand batteries, 2 of which were pretty charged to full and one fairly dead one, it had been discharged alot. (reading 3v or so on meter.

all these batteries have been sitting round quite a while before I used them. I did a quick measure of all batteries before starting and got 21v total from all 3 batteries.

I used jumper leads for all the connections, placing b1
(highest charge) in series with b2. I then connected a small motor between the positive of b1 and b3 (flat batt). I then connected a 12v led strip which consists of 3 white led's - positive to neg of batt 3 and neg of strip to neg of batt 2. just following d bowling charger schematic.

the light's come on bright farily instantly and brightly. the motor did not run at all the whole experiment (not that i was fussed, just cause te ciruict called for it). I measured the batteries again and total voltage in system went to 27v, with the flat battery reading around 9v also.

I kept on measuring total voltage in each battery under load every 5 min or so and noticed all battery voltages still going up slowly but surely. After about 30min I exchanged the led strip load for a small 1.5v pocket radio which ran quite loud, but after a minute or two the batteries started to diminish where I could not get FM anymore just AM.

I let this run for about 20-30 minutes on AM until it was too crackly and voltage was draining quite quick.

I removed the pocket radio and replaced the load with my led strip again. It lit instantly but not very brightly. I let it run for about 20minutes again and all batteries had recovered to the point just before i disconnected them in the first place. The led burning very bright again after catching up on some charge. I let it run or a couple of hours and notice the batteries taking longer to charge as 2 of them at near their peak voltage. and after a few hours the charge down sightly but burning brightly. I removed the so called charged batt and plugged that into an 8x3led strip to burn off and placed another dead or near dead battery in 3rd position and getting same results.

don't know if motor needs to be in the circuit or not, but might remove it later and see if same results. all the batteries seem to charge under load but not if load is too big, it seems to love lights.

anyways my 2 cents chaps