3 Battery Generating System

[LutherG]

Ok I think I have it working now. When I added one load the motor sped up some. I waited a while and added more load to batt 3. The motor sped up some more. I waited and then all of a sudden the motor took and sped up a lot more without me doing anything else. I also saw that the voltage on batt 3 was going down some more. I let it run for about 1/2 hour like this with no changes. Batt 3 continued to drop down to about 5 1/2 volts before I turned it off. Batts 1 and 2 seemed to be holding very steady and would occasionally show a sudden jump in voltage and then drop back to where they were. I am now letting the system rest and batts 1 and 2 are showing good signs of recovering all the way. My batt 3 is actually 2 batts in parallel. One of them is a small lawn and garden type that is so badly sulfated it will not ever let the motor start up. The other one is a 600 cca batt that will let the motor start after a few minutes of waiting. I just decided to try the Ossie Callahan idea since the one battery seemed to be completely sulfated. The next time I have it running I will try and get some scope shots if I can get the camera to work with my old analogue scope.

Later,
Carroll

Carrol,

What are you running for loads, and are your loads coming off an inverter or are they directly tied to the battery?

@Plengo - I think there's something to what you are pointing out in how this system is functioning...

regards to all,

Luther

[Turion]

About the motor speeding up. I explained a little of this in my initial post, but here goes.

What I have found is that when I put a load on the motor it puts the system "out of balance" which causes batts one and two to drain much, much faster than they should. When you add a load to battery three, the motor will speed up. Wait a while and see what happens...no more than five minutes. If the load you have put on battery three puts the system back into balance, within that five minutes the motor will speed up AGAIN (a second time) without you having done ANYTHING. (I said this in my very first post---go look)

When I'm trying to balance the loads I first put a load on the motor, then add a load to battery three and the motor will speed up, wait five minutes, add another small load and the motor will speed up, wait five minutes, add another small load and the motor will speed up. When the motor suddenly speeds up again (twice after only adding one load), I know I am in that 'zone" where nothing is drawn out of batts one and two, and I can continue to add loads to batt three until it drops out of that zone (and the motor slows down). This is the hard part though. You added a load so the motor sped up, which makes it difficult to know if adding the load really slowed down the motor. You need to add LIKE loads, so that you know how much the motor SHOULD have sped up. (either through listening, or rpm's) If it didn't, then you have two choices...reduce the load on batt three back to where it was, or increase the load on the motor. You want the motor to operate in that "zone" which is where all the magic happens. You lose voltage out of the two primaries until you get there, and you lose voltage out of the primaries when you leave there, but while you are there, it's Christmas every day. If you want to be able to run LARGE loads off of battery three, you need to do it while in the zone. But it is a balancing act, and it takes PATIENCE. So once you are in the zone, keep track of what the load on the motor was and what the load on battery three was. Then it is easy to get back into the zone. You keep seesawing back and forth, increasing the loads on the motor and then battery three until you have built up to the point that you are putting out the amount of power off battery three that you want to put out consistently (enough to run your inverter steadily), and hopefully that is within the limits of the ability of your particular motor to keep accelerating. I hope this makes some sense. At that point you are getting steady power out of the inverter, your primaries are lasting a really, really long time before having to rest, and you have the power from the motor for free.

Dave

[citfta]

Better description of my setup

I am using a 24 volt scooter motor as my motor. I do not have any load connected to it now. I had a 90 volt DC motor connected to it with a coupling. I was planning to use the 90 volt motor as a generator when I got the scooter motor into the "zone". I am still learning how to balance all of this out so I didn't get the scooter motor into the zone with just the mass of the generator as a load. So I unhooked it and tried to get the scooter motor in the zone without any load on it. After the motor started running I waited a few minutes and hooked up a taillight bulb as a load on batt 3 and waited. The motor sped up at first but not any more. I then added a 20 ohm 10 watt resistor as additional load on batt 3. The motor then sped up and I waited. After about 3 minutes the motor sped up again and the voltage on batt 3 started going down. After 30 minutes I turned it off and 4 hours later batts 1 and 2 came back up to the same level as before the run.

In the first picture below is a scope shot across batts 1 and 2. The scale is .5 volts per division. The second shot is across the motor and the scale is 1 volt per division. The scope is set on AC coupling and the time is 1 ms per division. Tomorrow I will connect the 90 volt motor back up to the scooter motor and see if I can get it back in the zone with no load on the 90 volt motor (generator).

Later,
Carroll

[Turion]

You're seeing what I have seen. If you can operate in the "zone" the batteries recover much quicker because you really haven't pulled anything to speak of out of them. Thanks for the scope shots. The more information we can get out to people the more successful people will be with this.
Dave

[Mario]

You're seeing what I have seen. If you can operate in the "zone" the batteries recover much quicker because you really haven't pulled anything to speak of out of them. Thanks for the scope shots. The more information we can get out to people the more successful people will be with this.
Dave

Hi all,

Dave, when you're "in the zone" and have it steady for a while, have you ever measured the voltage across all three batteries, especially battery nr. 3?

Maybe finding the voltage relationship between the batts could help in tuning the load(s).
Once this is done and you know that you get the effect when batt 3 is at say 13V while the circuit is running one could replace batt 3 with a capacitor and tune for same voltage in cap (if needed) and see if the effect is still there... If this works we could get the tricky "bad battery" element out of the equation...

regards,
Mario

[mbrownn]

I am using a 24 volt scooter motor as my motor. I do not have any load connected to it now. I had a 90 volt DC motor connected to it with a coupling. I was planning to use the 90 volt motor as a generator when I got the scooter motor into the "zone". I am still learning how to balance all of this out so I didn't get the scooter motor into the zone with just the mass of the generator as a load. So I unhooked it and tried to get the scooter motor in the zone without any load on it. After the motor started running I waited a few minutes and hooked up a taillight bulb as a load on batt 3 and waited. The motor sped up at first but not any more. I then added a 20 ohm 10 watt resistor as additional load on batt 3. The motor then sped up and I waited. After about 3 minutes the motor sped up again and the voltage on batt 3 started going down. After 30 minutes I turned it off and 4 hours later batts 1 and 2 came back up to the same level as before the run.

In the first picture below is a scope shot across batts 2 and 3. The scale is .5 volts per division. The second shot is across the motor and the scale is 1 volt per division. The scope is set on AC coupling and the time is 1 ms per division. Tomorrow I will connect the 90 volt motor back up to the scooter motor and see if I can get it back in the zone with no load on the 90 volt motor (generator).

Later,
Carroll

Thanks for the scope shots.

Tell, me if I am interpreting this correctly, it is difficult to tell because the shots are not so clear but it looks like you have a brief oscillation at the start if each wave, what is its peak to peak?

The main wave form, is it going from 0.2 volts above battery voltage to a 0.2v below or is it all below battery voltage?

There is a second oscillation mid point on the main wave form, Is this half the magnitude of the first oscillation? what is its magnitude?

It looks to me like a PM motor with three coils, am I correct?

Can you take a scope shot across the bats 1 and 2 and one across bat 3

On the second pic it looks as if you have transients on the top part of the start of the wave is this correct?

Are there any others?

[citfta]

Correction

The first shot is actually across batts 1 and 2. It was late when I was typing last night and I didn't catch my mistake. The large spikes in that picture are actually going off the screen so they are greater than + - 2 volts. The smaller spikes are about + - .5 volts. Sorry for the quality of the pictures but it is an old analogue scope that doesn't have any storage function so I can't save a still shot. The second shot is directly across the motor and yes there are transients at the top part of the start of the wave. Because I had the scope input on AC coupling a I can't tell you which part of the waves is above or below 0 DC. I don't have any more shots right now. I have storms moving in so I am going to have to get offline for now.
Later,
Carroll

PS: The motor is a PM DC motor. I don't know how many coils are on the armature.

[Joit]

I still had now running my other setup with 3 4,5 Ah SLA with a CD Motor and a 12V/5Watt Bulb + a Variac in serie with the Bulb. #3 is no bad Battery anymore seems, because it holds now charge and is able to light the Bulb.
#1 + #2 in Serie, #3 connected with the negative to #2,
positive #3 connected with the Motor to positive #1, negative #3 connected in Serie with the Variac and the Bulb to positive #3.
I can adjust the 1k Variac to a certain Resistance, the light goes off, and the Motor running slow, with less Resistance, the Motor runs fast and the light goes brighter.
Mainly #1 is drawn down, #3 is charged.


One Explanation what does happen.
I use Negative Battery #2 as Reference for 0 Volt.
The Potential(difference) to #1 Plus is about 24Volt (* hypothetically).
The Potential to #2 Plus is 12 Volt.
The Potential to #3 Plus is 12 Volt (healthy Batt) or 3Volt in bad condidtion.
The Potential from Plus #1 to Plus #3 is therefor 12 Volt or 3 Volt (bad condition) too.
There is now a Potential difference from #1 Plus to #3 Plus from 12 Volt.
The Path from between #1 Plus to my Reference Negative #2 of 0 Volt is interrupted from the Resistance inside from Battery # 3.
As more charge #3 gets, as more less will the Resistance be, and as more Voltage will run through #3.
Adding the Bulb between Plus #1 and negative of #3 makes a more direct Connection to my reference 0Volt (-)#2, therefor the Motor get more Voltage, what flows.

That the bad Battery gets charged is what J. Bedini always said, it doesnt make Sense, when you pump Charge only in one Side and boil the Batteries.
What i know in common from Batteries, that it is a process of oxidation and transformation of Oxidation. Oxidation usual is / creates Resistance, like its used on the Gates from Transistors. And it shows that Batteries mostly get wrong charged at the classical Way.
The happy case is, that #3 gets charged when its in the Path between #1 and #2.

I still leave it open, what does happen when you slow down the Motor, because my Theorie is, that a part from the Current is stored in the Windings, add Load on the Motor creates a stronger BEMF, what lets still Voltage flow but not the magnetic Field / Current.
A reference for the Setup can be found here too.
http://www.free-energy.hu/pajert62/T...ch_2.PGFED.pdf

Page 3

At Time “A” the switch closes, connecting a voltage source (battery, charged capacitor, or whatever) to a lead-acid
battery. Electrons start flowing down the outside of the connecting wire. Being very light and having little
obstruction, they move very fast indeed (the electrons inside the wire only move a few inches per hour as getting
through the wire is difficult). All goes well until Time “B” when the leading electrons reach the lead plates inside the
battery. Here, they have a problem, because the current flow through the plates is carried by lead ions. Lead ions
are very good at carrying current, but it takes them a split second to get going due to their weight. That split
second is critical and it opens the door to free-energy. In that split second, the electrons pile up because they are
still arriving down the wire at very high speed. So, at Time “C” they have built up into a large body of electrons.

Edit.
Unusual is, that my Batt #1 still recovers to a certain way. I charged #1 and #2 before i started, that the light the Bulb bright up.
All Batteries came back to around 12V, more or less. #1 still can light the Bulb dim even when it did drop during the run to 6 V and more. But its not like that it totally depletes

[mbrownn]

The first shot is actually across batts 1 and 2. It was late when I was typing last night and I didn't catch my mistake. The large spikes in that picture are actually going off the screen so they are greater than + - 2 volts. The smaller spikes are about + - .5 volts. Sorry for the quality of the pictures but it is an old analogue scope that doesn't have any storage function so I can't save a still shot. The second shot is directly across the motor and yes there are transients at the top part of the start of the wave. Because I had the scope input on AC coupling a I can't tell you which part of the waves is above or below 0 DC. I don't have any more shots right now. I have storms moving in so I am going to have to get offline for now.
Later,
Carroll

PS: The motor is a PM DC motor. I don't know how many coils are on the armature.

Excellent.

Those spikes are the ringing of the coils as they switch and the fact that it goes above battery voltage on the source was one of the things I was looking for.

With a modern motor, the coil arrangement on the armature causes small transients in both directions, ie to the source and to the destination. Some motors have a capacitor of a size that will all but eliminate this across the motor. I suspect these motors will not work as well on this circuit.

Think Bedini spikes but going in both directions.

I suspect that as current increases the spikes will reach a point where they no longer go above the voltage drop caused by the motor running on the primaries. At this point the effect people are looking for may go away.

Loading the motor will cause an increase in these spikes, I believe. If you reverse the wires on your motor the larger spikes will go to the bad battery and recover it faster but you will loose some, if not all of the effect you are looking for.

High bad battery impedance will be required to keep the current down so that the voltage drop on the source is is not too much. Low capacitance of the bad battery has the same effect by increasing the voltage to say 18v.

I think 3 pole rotors should work best run in the direction where the back spike is greatest.

Are these the droids....oops spikes we are looking for? Star wars humor

If I am right, the voltage of the primaries will rise when you first put on the motor. It is only after this rise has dropped below the start voltage that you start to drain your source. The trick should be just drawing enough to cause the spikes and maintain the gain in voltage on the source.

I am not saying this is it at this stage but I do believe it is part of it.

Comments please

[mbrownn]

Try replacing the bad battery with a capacitor and resistor in series of just enough resistance to allow the motor to turn, In parallel to the resistor you want to put a diode blocking the direction of flow of current but allowing the back-spikes to bypass the resistor. The diode need to be very low forward voltage and fast switching. The output load wants to be matched so that the voltage drop on the source is not too much. an additional diode opposing the current in parallel to this load will help too.

[mbrownn]

Another trick would be to run a diode from the output side of the motor back to the source anode in addition to my first mod.

Somewhere i have a simulation of a modern motor if i can find it I will post a link with the circuit

[Turion]

I'll be honest with all of you. I have taken my setup about as far as I can take it. I know how to balance my loads between battery three and my motor. I know almost by feel when to shut it down to give my batteries time to recover.So I have pulled my setup off my bench and am concentrating on building an 80 coil energizer to connect to my motor as load. I feel like balancing the system with that energizer will be a bit of a challenge, but I know exactly how to do it, and I want to see just how much I can pull off battery three at the same time. I think the ONLY way I can improve on what I have is if I come up with a better battery for the third position or WE come up with a way to replace battery 3.

This doesn't mean I am done playing with my setup, but until I get all my welding done for my energizer, I need my bench top for that, and my shop is tiny. So sorry if I can't take scope shots of my system or give you readings on my setup right now. But I think I've given you enough information to successfully replicate this thing, and I know there are some of you who are way better with scopes than I am who now have a setup running or soon will have. Everything I know about how to use a scope, Matt Jones taught me while I was building his "Simple Motor".

I will do my best to answer any questions you throw my way, but you have more knowledgable people in the electronics area, like cifta/Carroll, who now have a running setup and are getting the same kind of results I was getting. The only way to get BETTER results is to get a better "bad" battery or come up with something in its place. The person who does THAT will be the real hero of this tale.

I'm leaving tomorrow AM for a three day weekend in sunny southern California, but will try to check in if the place I am staying has internet. It's a B&B, so who knows. At least I can use my phone to view what gets posted here, even if I can't contribute. As to contributions, I don't know if I have anymore unless I discover something new.
Good luck all
Dave

[FRC]

I just finished another half hour run. Not only did battery 2 show improvement
from the last runs but also the new battery 1 now had a standing voltage of 13 volts before I started. This was after resting for about a day and a half. This time I had a 12v rechargeable drill attached to one of the motors as a generator. Going the other way(drill running the motor) I was only able to get it producing about 1.8 volts. So much for these motors being good for the Lockridge device, unless they are rewound. Using the drill as generator I was
getting around 16 volts output. I had the motor and drill mounted on a piece of plywood, but my alignment was not good and was only able to produce about 8 volts when hooked up to the system. The only load I had was the ceramic heater which ran continuously. I could not add loads to battery 3 since my mounting came apart and had to hold things in place. It did take a while for it to start to turn, but a motor without load would start right away. Now it appears as if the huge battery 3 got fixed, but that seemed to have happened before with the other battery 3 and later went back to its original state. Will have to get this setup better for the next run or try something else for a generator. Enjoy your weekend Dave, wish I could be doing the same (going to California).

George

[Neight]

Have a great weekend Turion, sounds like fun

In my last test, I definitely drained some energy out of bat 1 and 2, but not much. Going to recharge these batteries on my SSG for a while and start over with some new tests and a new motor.

I stopped and picked up a small 12VDC motor to test for this system, and have it hooked up right now, just to see if there is a difference between it and the fan I have been using.
So far, the motor hasn't started, but it's only been hooked up for a few minutes. Once I determine if it will start in the 15 min window, I am going to charge these batteries and get a little sleep.

If this bad battery doesn't work with this motor, I have two more batteries I can try in position 3 that wont take a charge either.

I will report my findings once I have some more information.

I am looking forward to seeing what you are able to do with an 80 coil setup sounds like fun to me

N8

[plengo]

@Turion,

can you post here exactly a digram of how this thing should be connected to remove ambuiguity. I just found this (http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...battery-1-.doc) and my setup was not like that.

Is the load really AFTER bad battery ?

Many thanks,

Fausto.