3 Battery Generating System

[Neight]

Hello,

Reading this thread's 15 pages took me all night but was better than a full season of "Heroes" !

Thanks all of you, because after reading all of this, me and a friend decided to jump in and try assembling the thing. First went for batteries at a batteries discount close to where I live to find out that most batteries available nowadays are "Gel"... Nope I need Acid Lead batteries ! So we had to take two motorcycle batteries (12V 12Ah "Nitro" + 12V 9Ah "ACS").

Our next question to the shop keeper was "do you, by any chance, have some dead lead acid batteries"?
He only had one that we took. This one showed only 2.5 V and the vendor says it can't be recharged (though it doesn't "look" old).

Back to the garage, taking appart my pal's kid's radio-commanded electric truck to extract an electric motor. Putting the 2 good batteries in serie... I measure both batterie's voltage (12.5V & 12.2 V) and go for the good neg to bad neg connection. Done !

I decided to now measure the potential between the "bad pos" and "good pos". Thinking that it shouldn't be too high or even zero if it was a "good bad" battery. (am I correct in my understanding here?)

I REMEMBER WELL that finding a "good bad" battery isn't easy, so....
DISAPPOINTED!
I got around 23 V :-(

So here we are... I decided not to go further, as if I got it right, a potential of 23 V would clearly set the motor in motion immediately which indicates the bad candidate is a "bad bad", right ?

We'd appreciate your feedback on this (telling us we got the basics or pointing us back on the track). Although I read that there is no "certified" method for producing a "good bad" bat, but is there "something" we might try to make our "bad bad" closer to a "good bad", maybe some more details about the metal parts addition could help. I'm sorry but I never openend a Lead Acid battery and clearly think that we'd better be carful with that. I noticed there are several "caps" that can apparently be opened on the hopefully bad battery (which is a car battery - no reference cause I left it in my pal's garage sorry), probably one for each cell, but I really don't know...

I must say that, although a little bit disappointed, but not surprised, by the fact that we didn't pick up the Holy Graal, we are both impatient to get back to it. If no other solution exists, I'll even drop by all surrounding car mechanics asking them for their oldest Lead Acid battery.

One last question, regarding the motor. I called a few car parts resellers asking them for "any kind of 12V electric motor"... And it felt like they almost hang the phone laughing !? Didn't get it !
I went to a local electronics store but the last, and only, 12v motor they had was gone (a small one). That's how we found ourselves tearing the kid's truck appart.
I was thinking about going to a radio-controlled models specialist next week, but it's at the whole other side of town and wouldn't want to go there for nuts. I rapidly scanned their website and they seem huge... I'm pretty sure they probably have some kind of 12v (or higher) electric motor that can fit... Is the fact that it has to be permanent magnet and not brushless enough to satisfy the requirements for the assembly ?
Do you have an idea where we possibly could find a motor that would fit if radio-controlled model's motors are all brushless (many seem to be) ?

for sharing all this.

Best,

Thibaut

Hello and welcome to the forum!
You might try to run your motor with the bad battery you have already. worst thing that happens is the motor starts right up and you have to recharge the good batteries for a bit. also, if the bad battery is on the edge, this might fix it pretty well instantly, which happened to me once already.

It sounds like you and your friend are on the right track, you just need to find the right battery for B3. You can also make your own B3 with just a couple of bucks and a trip to the store. I made one out of a couple of copper plates and a couple of aluminum plates and some alum mixed in water. It works great, and because it's small, even if it does get charged, it will never hold more than a volt or two on it's own.

There is a 9-18V motor that you can buy at radio shack, which is the same motor I started with. it's pretty small, but it works well enough to see the same results.

You can always make your own motor too. I took apart a hard drive and kept the motor out of it. I taped some magnets to the top and used a reed switch rather than commutators, and it worked to my surprise.
This is honestly one of the most flexible systems I have ever worked with. most of the variables I have tried have produced decent results.

It works with AA batteries as well. I had a couple of alkaline AA's for my good bats, and used a NiCd rechargeable as B3. when I started, the NiCd was reading 0V, which is clearly a dead battery. using the HD motor and the reed switch, That battery fixed itself, and is now holding 1.2V and will run a small 3V DC motor slowly.

If you have an old printer laying around, take it apart, there are usually at least 3 motors in the ones I have scrapped, and they also work well in this system. The most important things to know, you already seem to have right, from there, don't be afraid to experiment around a bit. You never know what you will find, and as I said above, the worst thing that can happen is you have to recharge your batteries a bit for the next attempt (or blow out a motor, which also isn't the end of the world, they will make more )

glad to see you are on board, and hope you can find what you are looking for to make this work. It's pretty amazing to see running, and once you get it in the zone, the results get even better!

N8

[clueless]

Coincidence?

I've bolded the part of your reply that seems to fit with something that happened today.
I was visiting with my niece and she was telling me a story about her husband ( a mechanic) who has just solved a problem with a customer's car. The car was displaying all the symptoms of overcharging but all his tests revealed nothing was wrong.
What he finally found was the the radiator fluid was charged and when he drained the radiator and replaced the fluid the problems disapearred.
Intriqued I did some research on ethylene glycol (anti-freeze) and found this little tidbit of information wikipedia, "Minor uses of ethylene glycol include the manufacture of capacitors..."
If you look at the images construction of radiators on this page:
Figure 65. Engine Radiator Construction

I see rough comparisons to battery cell construction.
Digging a little deeper it seems many radiators are today made using copper/brass and aluminum.

Car Radiator, Truck Radiator, Heater Core, AC Condenser, Radiator Core, Charge Air Cooler

I don't know if a battery can be made using an radiator and antifreeze (alum,acid) or not but this story my niece relayed today seems to fit into this weird happenings with the 3BGS.

If you take a look at Lamare's latest explanation of Matthew Jones Tesla Switch
circuit and look at Ufopolitics explanation for the bad battery in post #413 of
this thread for the "bad battery", you see that they both compare what is
happening to that of what happens in an electrolytic capacitor. How can we
use this concept to mimic the bad battery ? Any ideas ?

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...witch-136.html

George

[Sanskara316]

hello all, just an update, I manage to replicate the situation where bat1 and bat2 is charging, sad to say again but motor burned again. I have bigger motors available but it doesn't charge bat1 and bat2. somehow the batteries 1 and 2 loves the small 12 volt motor that burned. it run for 15 mins before burning. and the meters don't function well when I'm using the small 12 volt motor, because voltages reach a thousand volts on bat1 and 2. I'll try to find my analog meters for accuracy. but when I shut the system off and check, the voltages bat1 and bat2 gained. i'm not using aluminum wires anymore, it's quite dangerous but the effects where the same. I have a video will tryto post tomorrow. gooduck everybody

[FRC]

@Bitbox, I would agree with neight about experimenting with what you have
already. The small motors I have are 12v fan motors I got from
Wal Mart and other auto stores. The last time I looked at the
automotive section at Wal Mart here, the only thing they had
with a 12v motor was a 12v auto vacuum. But it would
probably work. To be safe, and not burn out the motor, you
could try the 2 battery setup at first.

@Sanskara316, Using the 2 battery setup might also work better with your
type of motor. You are right, you do seem to get more
charging to the batteries with these smaller motors.

@Clueless, Thanks for suggesting trying two batteries. I did not think it
would work, but it looks like it does. Also thanks for the radiator
info. Maybe trying antifreeze in an old battery might work
for a bad battery.

@Duncan, Thanks for the pointers. I should know better for posting by now.

George

[Turion]

@bitbox,
To make your bad battery work better, connect it directly to your motor and let the motor run until the battery is drained as much as possible. Then connect it into the system with a 12 volt load connected directly to it, like an auto dome light bulb or other small bulb. This will keep battery three from accepting a charge so quickly. You will need some small lights like this if you are going to balance the load on the motor anyway. I would say put the motor back in the truck and flip the truck upside down so the motor is spinning the tires and that will be your load. Sounds like you already have everything to put a load on the motor. Then go through the instructions in post #1 for balancing the load and let us know the results. I would agree that you might want to try with just two batteries instead of three to save your motor and see if that works.

@Sanskara316,
Are you doing anything different than just using a rear small motor? All three batteries lead acid? Or are you using two? #6 or larger wire connecting your batteries? Can't wait to see the video. Why was using the aluminum dangerous...because int wasn't insulated?

I have a roll of fence wire for electrified dog fence, it is a single strand of aluminum or some blend...it doesn't say...that goes around the top of a fence so dogs won't jump over it. It is uninsulated. I plan on taking a bunch of strands of that and then wrapping them with electrical tape except on the ends to make my battery connections with and see what happens.

@clueless,
Thanks for that radiator info. That was very, very interesting!

@All of you,
Thanks for your contributions and jumping in to help each other. We'll figure this thing out one way or another.

EDIT:
I have been thinking about the success some of you have seen with batteries one and two being charged with the small motors, even though it is very hard on them as we have seen. I am wondering if it is because the smaller motors are turning at higher RPM.s because of their smaller shaft size, and therefore able to emit more CEMF because of more rotations for the same amount of current/voltage, which is what I believe is charging batteries one and two. So if you can get one of those to run off the two battery setup, that may be the solution.

By comparison, my 110 volt motor should be run off of higher voltage (than 12 volts) to achieve the same kind of thing, but not the max of 110 volts. SInce I have about 20 charged lead acid batteries sitting around here, I will give that a try this next week. I have finished my energizer and will post some pictures later in the week when I get it a little further along in the assembly stage. I had two long support bars I had welded in the wrong place, and had to grind the welds down and remove them and get them welded back in the RIGHT place this morning, but now I have nothing immediate that has to be done on it, and have moved it off my motor bench and have two setups up and running. So starting tomorrow, I will be doing all of the things I have just been TALKING about doing with my setup.

I also have two very small 12 volt brushed DC motors I can't wait to hook up to the two battery system and see what happens. For that matter, I have a 12 volt electric fan I have been using as a load at different times, and a 12 volt car vacuum, so I have all kinds of things. I bought a cigarette lighter socket, and have several devices that I could plug into it, like two different compressors for pumping up car tires, and a little refrigerator that runs off 12 volts. This should be a really fun week and I hope to have lots to report by next weekend. I'm also dragging my scope out from under the counter so I can post some scope shots. Data, data, data.

Dave

[Guruji]

Two bad batteries

I don't want to run into conclusions but the little time I spend on this setup it's seems that my 2battsetup is charging both of my bad batteries
Still experimenting.

[FRC]

Another 2BGS run

Today I tried the 2 battery setup again. This time I tried the other two
smaller motors first. I thought all three were the same, since they came
from similar 12v fans. These two other motors would not run unless the
load was attached.

So I went back to the motor that worked. I should mention that this motor
has a wheel attached to the shaft with four ceramic magnets that come
with the r-charge SSG kit taped on to it. The wheel is just two plastic lids
also taped together. I am just wondering if the reason this motor works is
because of the influence of the magnets on the motor. The magnets are N
facing out like the SSG. The other motors are still in their original plastic
cases, and one is the unmodified original fan.

This time I ran it for about two hours using a 12v computer fan for a load.
Using the halogen light for load made the motor run too fast and I was
afraid the magnets might fly off. After a two hour resting period battery 1
returned to its original voltage before the run. Bad battery 2 declined at
its usual rate. Using this motor and magnet wheel, it could be positioned to
go past coils and generate electricity.


George

[clueless]

Thanks guys

for the experimenting you all are doing. I'm especially ticked that the 2BGS may work for smaller 12 v motors as this gives a shot a doing something immediate.
Apparently the radiator coolant being charged is enough to warrant a SOP article about it. Who knew? It seems it comes from an improperly grounded rearend or transmission case.
Anyway I don't want to take this thread off topic but just expands our options for the "bad" battery.
Again thanks Turion for bringing this to our attention and to all who have experimented with variations of the 3BGS.
-Lyn

[Sanskara316]

@FRC I thinking of using 2 batteries, it might be the solution, to not burn another motor. been using small 12 volt fan motors because it's available at the moment and the 6volt SLA batteries.
@ Turion, yeah its not insulated, very easy to short circuit the batteries, I haven't insulated it yet that why for now I'm not going to use it. As for the batteries I'm using a Alum converted SLA for the bat3 position. and I'll check tonight, I'm not sure if the bat1 or bat2 is also alum converted, I have many of this 6volt SLA batteries, and I have converted some, so I'll make sure if their are SLA batteries or Alum. And I'll also try the 2 bat system, hope it'l not burn my new motor, jst bought it today. I'm at work right now, I forgot to bring my USB for the video, I almost got late, for waking up late. I'll make sure tommorow to upload it. thanks for your advices

[FRC]

There seems to be a lot of discord going on in a few of the other threads lately.
Thankfully that has not been happening here. Whether or not we can all get the
same results does not seem to be a problem here. With all the different variations
that have been tried, most are experiencing at least partial success
with their results. This system is actually quite amazing for its simplicity and
ease of replication when compared to all the other FE things out there. It sure
is nice to see something work as well as this does. Day by day we are gaining
more information as more people try this and share their results. Thanks all
for taking an interest and trying this. We are learning more about it all the time
thanks to your support.

George

[Turion]

Circle today's date on your calendars boys and girls. You're gonna want to remember where you were when you read this post because what I have to share with you today is going to make all the difference.

As usual, I need to warn you that if you attempt to replicate this, you do so at your own risk. Batteries can explode, so be dang careful. I am posting this as information about what I and others are doing, and in no way am I advocating that YOU should do it.

Anyway, there are some folks who are not posting here who have made some amazing contributions to what is going on behind the scenes at this thread. David P. came up with the idea of using wire wound resisters across battery three to keep that battery from charging. Matt J. took that and ran with it and posted the circuit I am sharing today.

Matt has had his setup running for FIVE days without losses on the primaries..in fact....small GAINS. He is using an MJL transistor and the aforementioned wire wound resisters. He is also using a 24 volt razor scooter motor. Results for motors - Razorama

The transistor switches to create high amp pulses through the motor. The motor itself drives the switch with the oscillations of power coming OUT (told ya!!).

Matt is going to make a couple more modifications and then film it for us. He thinks we can set this up to charge the run batteries one at a time while running the inverter on the opposite run battery and then switching. Who knows what the possibilities are at that point. The important thing is, it runs. It runs for long periods of time. The primary batteries maintain or increase their charge. We might end up having to use some higher voltage transistors than the MJL's that Matt is using or possibly Mosfetts if we want to put big loads on the motor or battery three, so we are a long way from FINISHED with experimenting. But when was the last time you saw a system that works that you could all replicate as easily as you can this one. Tell your friends and neighbors. I wasn't kidding about circling today on your calendar!!

[FRC]

This Sounds Great

This sounds great. Is the circuit still using a bad battery or is it allowing a good
battery to work for battery 3 ? Also is the MJL a MJL21194 ? This is still good news
if a bad battery still has to be used. And the circuit and components are
super simple. Quite a breakthrough. Thanks Matt for believing in this and taking
it to the next level.

George

[Turion]

It is an MJL 21194, and it STILL requires a bad battery in position three. Whatever battery you have that is bad, drain it as much as possible, put that resistor on their and LEAVE it on, even when the system is powered down.

Dave

[boguslaw]

Ok, now I think we can replace bad battery with a large capacitor, but custom made. Follow Tesla patent 567818. Just metal plates in concentrated salt solution.

[clueless]

Turion my imagination is running wild

But why can't you use a pot across bat 3? Seems like doing that will "balance" the load to the motor more easily. Taking it a step farther instead of across bat 3 why couldn't you install it between the negatives of bat 3 and bat 1 with diodes to block draining bat 1? Just asking.
Seems like if that will work it will help to keep the running bats charged.
Regardless if a pot works to balance the motor could you control the motor's speed? If so then hooking up an AC generator to the motor seems simple to me. Or maybe you could connect the generator directly and leave the motor out?
Just some wild random thoughts.
I am probably going have to wait until next week when I get paid to set up my own system.
I'm really tickled that so many are actually trying something that seems to work and is something I can visualize and follow along with and feel confident I can duplicate. So many threads here are way over my head.
Thanks again guys.