3 Battery Generating System

[Mario]

Mario,
I did leave one part out of my last response to you, and that is, when your bad battery starts gaining voltage like that, it doesn't take long before it gets past the place where you can ever get it into the zone. The zone is a place where your battery still has very little charge, and you have balanced the load on the battery with the amp draw or voltage or WHATEVER is going to it so that it does NOT go up in charge. I'm not even sure WHAT it is you are balancing WITH to tell you the truth. It happened to me by accident the first time, and now I know the "zone" exists, so I try to get into it. When you get to this state, batteries one and two do not discharge, and there is still enough potential difference to keep the magic happening. You wait too long, and you can still balance the two, but the potential difference is not great enough for the magic to happen. So you have a LOT of things working against you being successful without the "good" dead battery. That's the best I can explain it. It is a really critical piece.

Dave

Thanks for the update Dave.

regards,
Mario

[fathershand]

Bad Battery Test

ALL, I think I have found a way to easily determine if a bad battery "candidate" will work in this system. Here it is: Check the impedance with your meter.

Here's how I do it. Put your meter on continuity check. My meter gives ohms on this setting as well as a beep. Place the positive lead from the meter on the positive battery post and the negative meter lead on the negative battery post. If you get a positive value, put the negative meter lead to the positive battery post and the positive meter lead to the negative battery post. If you get a value for both these checks OR CONTINUITY AT ANY TIME, then you have a good candidate for the bad battery.

Normally, when you place the positive meter lead on the positive battery post and connect the negative meter lead to the negative battery post, you will not get a value on the meter. Normally, if you put the negative meter lead on the positive battery post and the positive meter lead on the negative battery post, you get a negative value for good batteries.

Please try this and tell me what you get. Test some of your bad batteries that work for you and some that don't work and post your results.

I would like to verify whether my conclusion is correct.

Thanks
Tony

[Matthew Jones]

I had one other thought I'm going to mention here mostly as a reminder to myself once I give this a try again. I'm thinking that putting a transformer across Bat3 like a MOT in reverse (high voltage side across the battery) might catch some spikes there (I'd try this both with and without the reversed diodes) and step them down to lower voltage and higher current to be fed back to battery 1 and 2. I'm sure Matt or others have thought of this so maybe it's a nutty idea or just a bad one. But unless I hear otherwise I'll try it.

You really don't get enough pulsing across the battery to drive any current on the transformer, But a switch would solve that. Then just watch out for heat.

Matt

[blackchisel97]

Hello everybody. I've been following this thread for a while and searching for decent motor. No luck with bigger motor yet but I was able to dissect RC truck today and assemble simple setup. This reminds me of TS thread and 3 battery setup with bulb (as a load) and biased transistor (later pulsed with IC).
I found 3 good 6V LAB's but no candidate for a "bad one". I should get one tomorrow. Meanwhile I hooked up an old NiCad 6V pack. Motor didn't want to start but all three batt's were gaining (this one I don't get it). I tapped small bulb across the battery pack and motor took off. I know, NiCad isn't the right choice but it was the only 6V I found. At first, motor wasn't running smooth but after 10-15min accelerated a bit and stabilized. I stopped after 30min and let the batteries settle. 2 good ones (in series) fully recovered back to 12.53V and pack gained (from 2.55V to 6.35V. Maybe wasn't that bad after all).
The way I see this is that our third battery must have certain impedance/capacitance in order to work. When getting "repaired" its impedance is getting low while capacitance is raising and differential between two positives isn't sufficient to run a load. Did I get that right?
There is something rattling in my head about Gabriel Kron. Also, "splitting positive" - from John Bedini and the "Open Dipole" - from Thomas Bearden.
I believe the last one is our third battery. As long as there is some asymmetry and the load is right this will run...and run...like Energizer Bunny.
I have couple ideas but the ground is still frozen around my place. I'll continue my hunt for the motor.
It would be nice to run a low cogging generator with it...

Thanks
Vtech

[Matthew Jones]

Hello everybody. I've been following this thread for a while and searching for decent motor. No luck with bigger motor yet but I was able to dissect RC truck today and assemble simple setup. This reminds me of TS thread and 3 battery setup with bulb (as a load) and biased transistor (later pulsed with IC).
I found 3 good 6V LAB's but no candidate for a "bad one". I should get one tomorrow. Meanwhile I hooked up an old NiCad 6V pack. Motor didn't want to start but all three batt's were gaining (this one I don't get it). I tapped small bulb across the battery pack and motor took off. I know, NiCad isn't the right choice but it was the only 6V I found. At first, motor wasn't running smooth but after 10-15min accelerated a bit and stabilized. I stopped after 30min and let the batteries settle. 2 good ones (in series) fully recovered back to 12.53V and pack gained (from 2.55V to 6.35V. Maybe wasn't that bad after all).
The way I see this is that our third battery must have certain impedance/capacitance in order to work. When getting "repaired" its impedance is getting low while capacitance is raising and differential between two positives isn't sufficient to run a load. Did I get that right?
There is something rattling in my head about Gabriel Kron. Also, "splitting positive" - from John Bedini and the "Open Dipole" - from Thomas Bearden.
I believe the last one is our third battery. As long as there is some asymmetry and the load is right this will run...and run...like Energizer Bunny.
I have couple ideas but the ground is still frozen around my place. I'll continue my hunt for the motor.
It would be nice to run a low cogging generator with it...

Thanks
Vtech

Nicad easily fix themselves so it may not be the best thing. I recently seen a 1960's era nicad bank that had previously expired come back to life.

Your explanation is partly right but your references are right on.
The load releases the power from the positive pole of the good battery, and the current flows because of the potential difference between the good and bad.
The thing about the bad battery is you are forcing a charge onto the positive plate which in turn forces a negative charge on the negative plates of the bad battery. That charge in turn goes back to the good battery. IE.. DC Current. The difference is the amount and possibly type of charge on the negative plates. Meanwhile the motor is also producing a Counter charge that flows with the incoming energy overall adding to the systems overall charge.

Now when you get into the "Zone" all this is taking place at a good enough level that even with loss there is enough extra energy to maintain your charge or gain in some cases.

Cheers
Matt

[Neight]

I found 3 good 6V LAB's but no candidate for a "bad one". I should get one tomorrow. Meanwhile I hooked up an old NiCad 6V pack. Motor didn't want to start but all three batt's were gaining (this one I don't get it).

Hey Vtech
good to see you come aboard on this!
The last long run I did I saw the same thing. When the motor wouldn't start, both good batteries gained in charge, and the bad battery was reading well over 20V. Not sure what to make of it myself, but once the motor starts, things change and then you will only see gains in the good batteries on recovery.

I have a couple of NiCad battery packs, might try this with one or two of them, see if I can fix them and get them running other experiments
thanks for sharing
N8

also, in the very beginning of all this, the first bad battery I tried fixed itself instantly. It is a 33Ah SLAB and had sat dead on my bench for quite a long time. I hooked it up to the 3BGS and the motor started immediately. Right away I removed this battery from the system and checked it's charge again. It was reading 11.5V if I remember correctly, where it wouldn't even hold more than 1V for the entire time I have had it. I have since charged it on an SSG and have discharged it several times, works like new as far as I can tell. No idea what happened, but what ever fixed this battery, did it in less than 2 seconds on this setup. I know the goal here isn't to fix the bad batteries, but seeing a junk battery become useful in just a second or two is pretty incredible, and one of the best failed experiments I have ever done

[blackchisel97]

Nicad easily fix themselves so it may not be the best thing. I recently seen a 1960's era nicad bank that had previously expired come back to life.

Your explanation is partly right but your references are right on.
The load releases the power from the positive pole of the good battery, and the current flows because of the potential difference between the good and bad.
The thing about the bad battery is you are forcing a charge onto the positive plate which in turn forces a negative charge on the negative plates of the bad battery. That charge in turn goes back to the good battery. IE.. DC Current. The difference is the amount and possibly type of charge on the negative plates. Meanwhile the motor is also producing a Counter charge that flows with the incoming energy overall adding to the systems overall charge.

Now when you get into the "Zone" all this is taking place at a good enough level that even with loss there is enough extra energy to maintain your charge or gain in some cases.

Cheers
Matt

Thanks Matt Yes, I agree on NiCad. I had it running for the second time and 6V pack sits above 6.8V. This pack from RC monster truck was abandoned for at least 6 years.
I've lost almost 0.1V on batt 1 & 2. They were sitting steady at 12.23V during entire run - approx 1 hr (they're only 7.2Ah each).
I'll try to get couple poor LAB's tomorrow.

Cheers
Vtech

[Turion]

Vtech,
Nice to see you here! We need more people willing to spend the bench time on this and I have seen your work elsewhere in the forum. I have always felt like this idea had a lot of potential, and seeing so many different people getting positive results when they haven't with other builds makes me very excited about the future of this project. I feel like we are so close to having the answers all of us have been looking for.

fathershand,
I will give your Bad Battery Test a try first chance I get. It would be really nice if we actually had something that simple to determine if a battery was a good candidate for position three, instead of banging heads against walls all the time.

I have to say though, the battery I have that I put metal shavings into four of its cells, has been awesome for me. It will take a somewhat of a charge, only very slowly, and drops right back to about one volt in seconds when disconnected from charge. (When I got it, it was at 6-8 volts at rest, so I thought I would "kill" it) It is my prize possession at this point. I haven't run your test on it yet, but i will.

Neight,
I have seen many similar examples over the last four years of this system fixing bad batteries. It really ticks me off!!! Here I think I have the perfect candidate for battery number three, and seconds later it's a perfectly good battery. It is really frustrating. But, it has allowed me to build up a battery bank of batteries that I can keep charged up for emergency use in the event of a power outage.

Dave

[blackchisel97]

Thank you for a warm welcome Neight & Turion.
During over 1hr run I've lost 0.08V on "good" batteries and NiCad gained 4.95V + mechanical work. I used 6V motor from RC monster truck (which neighbor kids abandoned in the woods last fall)
I'm trying to come up with "bad" battery substitute idea. Need couple warm days to do some digging in the ground and bigger motor with brushes.

Cheers
Vtech

[imranexpt]

There is a way to find out which battery is BADLY sulfated and which battery Is really bad to be used for this project..

build a simple bedini circuit with coil, connect the bad battery you want to test to the bedini, if neon lits then its a BAD battery (shorted cells), if neon stays silent and battery start getting charge then its a sulfated battery and can be used for this project.. this is how I test a couple of batteries and my test results with 100% ok on bad batteries..

the shorted ones never work out, but the sulfated ones (which gain charge on bedini) will work with this system

[blackchisel97]

Hello everyone,
I was able to find couple 6V LAB's and 12V fan motor however, brushless
Setup was sitting quiet for too long so I decided to connect small grain bulb across the bad battery. It did help. Motor started within 20min. I also connected scope probe across the motor. I found interesting noise and 5V spikes, getting more intense just before motor is about to start. I guess, that would explain my previous run when all batteries were slightly gaining without motor spinning.
I'll try to mount 12V motor but I don't have high hopes since there is no brushes in it.

Be back
Thanks

Vtech

[Mario]

There is a way to find out which battery is BADLY sulfated and which battery Is really bad to be used for this project..

build a simple bedini circuit with coil, connect the bad battery you want to test to the bedini, if neon lits then its a BAD battery (shorted cells), if neon stays silent and battery start getting charge then its a sulfated battery and can be used for this project.. this is how I test a couple of batteries and my test results with 100% ok on bad batteries..

the shorted ones never work out, but the sulfated ones (which gain charge on bedini) will work with this system

Actually, what we want for this project is NOT a battery that will recover. We are not trying to revive batteries. The shorted ones might be the right ones.

regards,
Mario

[imranexpt]

Actually, what we want for this project is NOT a battery that will recover. We are not trying to revive batteries. The shorted ones might be the right ones.

regards,
Mario

Incorrect, i think shorted ones are the one which wont work at all, they wont run your motor, but a badly sulfated battery will run your motor somehow..

I did not say to recover the battery I just give an idea to find out the correct battery that is suitable for this project which is mensioned in first post "Badly sulfated battery"..

[Mario]

Incorrect, i think shorted ones are the one which wont work at all, they wont run your motor, but a badly sulfated battery will run your motor somehow..

I did not say to recover the battery I just give an idea to find out the correct battery that is suitable for this project which is mensioned in first post "Badly sulfated battery"..

imranexpt, my bad.

[Matthew Jones]

Technically a shorted out battery should let the motor run, real well in fact.

It just closes the loop. Thats all the secondary loads do as well, they close the loop. But somewhere in there the bad battery gathers and re releases energy back into the system by being parallel with that load.

So If you have battery that is shorted out and will not run the motor, your battery is not shorted out, it may be broken lose at the main connection inside or somehow disconnected but it is not shorted out.

Matt