3 Battery Generating System

[GlenWV]

Evening update....

Greetings all:

Well, the motor is still running and turning the flywheel.

I've hung about everything except the kitchen sink on the bad battery and have gotten the voltage down from 5.18 to 2.14 vdc.

Attached to the bad battery is: a 1.5 hp 100vdc motor which is turning ever so slowly, the 5 strand Bedini SG which has raised a 3kAH battery bank 0,5 volts today, a 120 vac drill with the trigger locked, 1 big corn cob resistor, 2ea. 1 ohm field coils, 1 dual strand UFO coil, 2 ea. 1.5 ohm field coils, several 25 watt resistors of various sizes, and the big 117 strand, 80 pound Bedini SG coil.

When I grasp the flywheel to slow it down, the voltage on the bad battery goes up.

B1 bank voltage has dropped from 11.71 to 11.4, while B2 bank has dropped from 11.35 to 11.17.

It looks like the system likes inductance rather than resistance to lower the voltage on the bad battery. I'm wondering if this thing will power a UFO coil pulsing the output into a battery bank. We'll see.

There's a 50 amp, 3 phase transformer sitting on the bench, so I may hook that rascal up and see what happens.... I may grab the other dc motor and make another setup.

These are my observations to date. I hope they prove helpful. Please feel free to suggest anything that I may try that would assist the efforts of the group.

glen

[Turion]

Glen,
If your runs are too long, your primaries will never recover. Also. If the motor started right away on the initial setup, you probably won't have any recovery anyway because batt 3 was not a good "bad battery" for this setup.

No time for more comments now, but will get back to you tomorrow.

Dave

[Guruji]

Winding what motor? It's hard to follow your question... Here is the winding pattern.

https://www.matthewcjones.com/powerB...impleMotor.jpg

If your not using a Razor Scooter motor maybe some one will help you out but I don't see any benefit in changing motors.

Matt

PS Motor should turn Clockwise when you hook it up.

So any motor will charge you're saying? even without modification? I tried with a small motor with no success; maybe my primaries were not charged cause motor was turning slow.

[Matthew Jones]

Any motor should work but we have had better luck with the modified motor.

Matt

[Turion]

Matt's right, any motor will work but the modified motor works better!
BUT REMEMBER, direction of rotation of the motor makes a HUGE difference, so see which direction of rotation produces the best (highest voltage) spikes for you.

Dave

P.S. Saw this on Netflix and couldn't resist posting it here:

Breakout 1998 PG rating 120 minutes
This family adventure stars Robert Carradine as Zack, an inventor who's come up with an alternative energy solution -- an environmentally friendly super-battery capable of powering a car. But a major oil company, determined to sabotage Zack's project, sends thugs to kidnap Zack's son Joe (J. Evan Bonifant) and his two pals -- unaware that Joe is also a technical whiz and the leader in a trio of feisty karate kids. James Hong costars.

Those Hollywood guys sure have an imagination. Where do they come UP with this stuff!

[Turion]

Glen,
I know I've talked about this in the past, but let me stress the importance of two things again, because I WANT you to be successful.

1. If the motor starts up when you first connect your circuit, your third battery won't work in this setup. You will NEVER see the primaries increase in voltage while running a load. Never. At least NOT with the basic circuit I have shown here. You might come up with some addition that makes that happen and if you do, PLEASE share! LOL

2.When you find a battery that will allow the motor to come on after a few minutes of just sitting there not running while the voltage on that battery drops from 24 (with 2 primaries) to about 18, you MUST have a load on the motor of some kind. Then you add SMALL LOADS to battery 3 to balance it with the load on the motor and get "IN THE ZONE." If you are not "in the zone" your primaries are going to go down, and they will go down until you DO get 'in the zone. Unless you are 'in the zone" the primaries will not increase in voltage (if you are one of the few lucky ones to see this because besides being in the zone, you were also able to keep batt 3 from charging)

3. How to get in the zone
When it starts to run, put a load of some kind on the motor. When you add a small load to battery 3 the motor will speed up. Wait about five minutes. If the motor speeds up A SECOND TIME you are in the zone. If it does not speed up a second time, continue to add small loads to battery 3 using this "add and wait" process until you get the two balanced (the motor speeds up that second time after adding a load to battery 3). Now, if you are very lucky, the voltage on batt 3 won't go up. If you observe it going up, (which means primary batteries are still discharging) you are going to have to add more load to the motor and start the balancing process all over again. And here's the rub. The second load you add to the motor may not be BIG enough to put the two out of balance, so it may still be IN BALANCE and you have no way of KNOWING this, so you add a small load to batt three which takes it OUT of balance IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, and now, no mater how many small loads you add to battery 3, you can never get the motor to speed up that second time.

Meanwhile your primaries are dropping like rocks because you are running the system with an unbalanced load.

To balance this thing and see charging on the primaries takes a lot of time and effort, and a whole lot of patience. Not very many people have seen it through persistence. Most have just stumbled across it by luck. And until you DO see it you may never believe this thing is for real. But once you HAVE seen it, well...it's pretty hard to forget.

I don't know if I have ever explained this part in this much detail, but i went through these basic steps in post #1. They are there for a reason. I want folks to be successful at this.

My thoughts on this...It would seem to me that in order to keep battery 3 from charging the load you end up with connected to it MUST be more than what is supplied to it by the two primary batteries. So even if you have the load balanced with the motor, if it is lower than what is supplied to battery 3 by the primaries, batt 3 will begin to charge and the system won't work. So we have to keep adding loads to the motor and balancing and at SOME POINT we will have a load that is balanced with the motor that is high enough in energy draw to prevent batt 3 from charging, and it MIGHT be a sustainable system. I hadn't tought of this until just now, but I don't know why that wouldn't work.

Very best of luck.

Dave

[Guruji]

Matt's right, any motor will work but the modified motor works better!
BUT REMEMBER, direction of rotation of the motor makes a HUGE difference, so see which direction of rotation produces the best (highest voltage) spikes for you.

Dave

P.S. Saw this on Netflix and couldn't resist posting it here:

Breakout 1998 PG rating 120 minutes
This family adventure stars Robert Carradine as Zack, an inventor who's come up with an alternative energy solution -- an environmentally friendly super-battery capable of powering a car. But a major oil company, determined to sabotage Zack's project, sends thugs to kidnap Zack's son Joe (J. Evan Bonifant) and his two pals -- unaware that Joe is also a technical whiz and the leader in a trio of feisty karate kids. James Hong costars.

Those Hollywood guys sure have an imagination. Where do they come UP with this stuff!

Ok thanks Turion for those who don't have scope is there a way to know for best spikes regarding motor rotation? Maybe makes bigger sound?

[velacreations]

Duncan,
Got that setup up and running right now. Will let it go for thirty minutes and check voltages on primaries. I'm running a second motor as a generator as load on the motor. Total voltage on my bank of bad batteries (added at rest) is around 12 volts and 36 volts in the primary stack. I did have to short across the series of bad batteries (continuous short) to get the motor to run, so who knows what will happen. Will keep you posted.

EDIT:
After a 30 minute run and some rest time my primaries are up .05 above where they started. I ran no loads on anything except the second motor as a load.

Dave

Dave, on your bank of bad batteries wired in series, is there some sort of break between the bad bank and the good/primary bank wired in series? I suppose the break is that the bad bank is wired backwards to the good bank, right?

Kinda confusing...

good batteries: -+-+-+ (motor)
bad batteries: +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
and you take the leading +of the bad and hook it to the motor, and the neg from the bad and the good connect, right?

Ok, now go back to the simple method of just 3 batteries. The good batteries (1 and 2) are wired in series, to make a bank, and then that bank is wired in parallel with B3, with a motor in between. Is that correct?

Without the motor, do the batteries equalize (assuming that B1 and B2 act as one battery of 2X voltage)?

I just got in from Christmas vacation, and I discovered a low battery on my truck (woo hoo!), so I'm hoping to play with some things this week once the weather gets better. I have a whole lot of weak 12 V SLAs aroud here, and a few good ones. I think I counted at least 8 that won't charge, so maybe I can find at least one out of the 8 that will work as batt 3. If not, I will wire them as a bank of bad ones like you did.

[Turion]

velacreations,

If you have a bank of good batteries wired in series, you always end up with one "+" and one "-" end. If you have one bad battery (or a bunch in series to use as one bad battery) you end up with one "+" and one "-" end. Connect the motor between the two "-" ends and connect the two "+" ends together.
This is splitting the negatives (with the motor)

You can ALSO (alternately) split the positives (with the motor) and connect the two "-" ends together. That is the way my ORIGINAL setup was wired. We haven't seen that it makes any difference whether you split the positives or the negatives.

My setup now is splitting the negatives.
I have noticed that when my motor is connected the way that produces higher spikes it rotates a little faster. with the shaft sticking out of the motor pointed directly at me, it is rotating clockwise. I have noticed that it appears to be the same with every motor I have tried, but is VERY easy to tell with the rewired razor scooter motor in a three battery setup. Hope that helps.

You don't need a scope to see the higher spikes. If you buy a cheap $4.00 meter from harbor freight and connect it to the batteries, you will see it with that.

Dave

[Turion]

velacreations,

If you have a bank of good batteries wired in series, you always end up with one "+" and one "-" end. If you have one bad battery (or a bunch in series to use as one bad battery) you end up with one "+" and one "-" end. Connect the motor between the two "-" ends and connect the two "+" ends together.
This is splitting the negatives (with the motor)

You can ALSO (alternately) split the positives (with the motor) and connect the two "-" ends together. That is the way my ORIGINAL setup was wired. We haven't seen that it makes any difference whether you split the positives or the negatives.

My setup now is splitting the negatives.
I have noticed that when my motor is connected the way that produces higher spikes it rotates a little faster. with the shaft sticking out of the motor pointed directly at me, it is rotating clockwise. I have noticed that it appears to be the same with every motor I have tried, but is VERY easy to tell with the rewired razor scooter motor in a three battery setup. Hope that helps.

You don't need a scope to see the higher spikes. If you buy a cheap $4.00 meter from harbor freight and connect it to the batteries, you will see it with that.

Check out a device running on waves out of the air...no power required
How to Make a Foxhole Radio - YouTube
Dave

[velacreations]

velacreations,

If you have a bank of good batteries wired in series, you always end up with one "+" and one "-" end. If you have one bad battery (or a bunch in series to use as one bad battery) you end up with one "+" and one "-" end. Connect the motor between the two "-" ends and connect the two "+" ends together.
This is splitting the negatives (with the motor)

You can ALSO (alternately) split the positives (with the motor) and connect the two "-" ends together. That is the way my ORIGINAL setup was wired. We haven't seen that it makes any difference whether you split the positives or the negatives.

My setup now is splitting the negatives.
I have noticed that when my motor is connected the way that produces higher spikes it rotates a little faster. with the shaft sticking out of the motor pointed directly at me, it is rotating clockwise. I have noticed that it appears to be the same with every motor I have tried, but is VERY easy to tell with the rewired razor scooter motor in a three battery setup. Hope that helps.

You don't need a scope to see the higher spikes. If you buy a cheap $4.00 meter from harbor freight and connect it to the batteries, you will see it with that.

Dave

ok, yeah, that is how I pictured it in my mind. So, there is a bank of good batts wired in series and then a bad batt (or a bank of bads) wired in parallel with the good bank. The motor goes in between the parallel line (either + or -).

Ok, got it!

I've actually had a similar setup before with a bank of batteries in a solar system. The individual batteries or cells are wired in series (usually 2 x 6 volt batts to make a 12 volt), then the series pairs wired in parallel (to increase amp hour capacity).

When a cell or battery goes bad, it drains the voltage of the whole parallel bank. Trying to isolate the bad one can be tricky, because of the wiring setup. I've seen it where a series pair has one battery at over 6 volts, like 8 volts, and another at 4 or less to give the impression that the pair is at 12 volts. One is overcharged, the other is not receiving a charge.

This isn't really valuable information to the topic, but it shows where a primary good wired with a bad will show the voltage of the good go up, even beyond the 6 volts full charge. This doesn't mean that good battery is actually charged at that level (when you disconnect and let it rest, it drops down to 6). I wonder if it is a similar effect as what we are seeing here with the 3GBS?

[Turion]

I measure my batteries at rest and under load before I start. Then I measure them at rest and under load after resting for 24 hours after a run. My primaries have gone up as much as 1.5 volts while running loads and running the motor. I know Matt has never seen his primaries go up, but he has seen them recover to starting voltage after resting. So have Carroll, Luthor, and several others. Only a few lucky suckers have seen the increases.

Before even starting this post I ran my setup for several weeks, only 30 minutes at a time, with an hour off for rest in between, and at the end of that time my primaries were above where they started. I also discharged my battery down to 12.2 volts using a 1 amp load to make sure it still held the proper amount of power (not just voltage) and had not sacraficed that during the experiment. That's when I decided it was worth starting this whole thing up again and going through having folks tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

I hope you get to see what we've seen, because you will be hooked.

Dave

[velacreations]

Check out a device running on waves out of the air...no power required
How to Make a Foxhole Radio - YouTube
Dave

yeah, really low power requirement...

[GlenWV]

Thank you....

Glen,
I know I've talked about this in the past, but let me stress the importance of two things again, because I WANT you to be successful.

1. If the motor starts up when you first connect your circuit, your third battery won't work in this setup. You will NEVER see the primaries increase in voltage while running a load. Never. At least NOT with the basic circuit I have shown here. You might come up with some addition that makes that happen and if you do, PLEASE share! LOL

2.When you find a battery that will allow the motor to come on after a few minutes of just sitting there not running while the voltage on that battery drops from 24 (with 2 primaries) to about 18, you MUST have a load on the motor of some kind. Then you add SMALL LOADS to battery 3 to balance it with the load on the motor and get "IN THE ZONE." If you are not "in the zone" your primaries are going to go down, and they will go down until you DO get 'in the zone. Unless you are 'in the zone" the primaries will not increase in voltage (if you are one of the few lucky ones to see this because besides being in the zone, you were also able to keep batt 3 from charging)

3. How to get in the zone
When it starts to run, put a load of some kind on the motor. When you add a small load to battery 3 the motor will speed up. Wait about five minutes. If the motor speeds up A SECOND TIME you are in the zone. If it does not speed up a second time, continue to add small loads to battery 3 using this "add and wait" process until you get the two balanced (the motor speeds up that second time after adding a load to battery 3). Now, if you are very lucky, the voltage on batt 3 won't go up. If you observe it going up, (which means primary batteries are still discharging) you are going to have to add more load to the motor and start the balancing process all over again. And here's the rub. The second load you add to the motor may not be BIG enough to put the two out of balance, so it may still be IN BALANCE and you have no way of KNOWING this, so you add a small load to batt three which takes it OUT of balance IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, and now, no mater how many small loads you add to battery 3, you can never get the motor to speed up that second time.

Meanwhile your primaries are dropping like rocks because you are running the system with an unbalanced load.

To balance this thing and see charging on the primaries takes a lot of time and effort, and a whole lot of patience. Not very many people have seen it through persistence. Most have just stumbled across it by luck. And until you DO see it you may never believe this thing is for real. But once you HAVE seen it, well...it's pretty hard to forget.

I don't know if I have ever explained this part in this much detail, but i went through these basic steps in post #1. They are there for a reason. I want folks to be successful at this.

My thoughts on this...It would seem to me that in order to keep battery 3 from charging the load you end up with connected to it MUST be more than what is supplied to it by the two primary batteries. So even if you have the load balanced with the motor, if it is lower than what is supplied to battery 3 by the primaries, batt 3 will begin to charge and the system won't work. So we have to keep adding loads to the motor and balancing and at SOME POINT we will have a load that is balanced with the motor that is high enough in energy draw to prevent batt 3 from charging, and it MIGHT be a sustainable system. I hadn't tought of this until just now, but I don't know why that wouldn't work.

Very best of luck.

Dave

Greetings Dave:

Thank you for taking the time to respond and giving directions. I appreciate it.

I did read your first post and that's pretty much what caught me. I'll go back and print it off tomorrow, along with your last post.

Today, I removed the North Star battery from the circuit and replaced it with a bad 17AH LAB. It has been connected for about 3 hours and hasn't started to run. Reckon I'd best go back down stairs and unhook the source batteries and the motor.

The motor has a heavy flywheel on it for the drive belt on a treadmill. I'm hoping that's enough load. Else, I'll have to come up with some friction.

The other motor, 1.5hp @ 100 vdc, may be a better candidate for this process. We'll make another setup tomorrow or Tuesday and see how she plays.

At some point, I'll get this thing to play and will share anything that I come up with. (Tain't smart, but am peristant.)

Will wind a motor MJ style, too.

Have a great evening forks!!

glen

[Turion]

GlenWV,
I would hang on to that one that never let your motor start. It's what we've been looking for to use in the battery modification experiments we've got going. AND, you could just leave it connected for as long as you can stand to do so. Eventually the motor might come on. It might take overnight though.

Dave