3 Battery Generating System

[PhysicsProf]

Dave --
Good points.
I keep wondering if this variation in voltage across the "bad" battery 3 that you observed might have something to do with electrolysis or other chemical action INSIDE that battery. Having some chemistry background along with my physics PhD, leads me to this hypothesis -- although I can't yet check it with specific chemical reactions. I'll give this some more thought...

(Any more word on that circuit with the capacitor replacing battery 3? If the above is correct, putting a cap in place of batt 3 probably will NOT work.)

Best wishes to all -- for the benefit of mankind (rather than making a few very wealthy).

[penno64]

Glad you mentioned that before I stick my nose in it

Patent # 763062 (its a UK patent)

Penno

[Turion]

Blast from the Past

Back in 2008 when I first posted on Overunity and Sterling Allen did a page on this on PESWiki, somebody here at EF started a page on the 3BGS..only as "David Bowling's Continuous Charger". It died rather quickly. I did not even know about this site at that time.

Anyway, at that time DavidE posted the following info:


Below is a schematic that does actually charge with minimal losses.



When I put the motor between the positives... it did charge the
battery, the charging battery actually got warm. I also could
here it boiling inside (charging battery).

When I put it on the negative side, just charging... no increase
temperature.

Test #6 30 minute duration
30 min rest then collect standing voltage
Battery 1 12.35v/12.35v (loss .00)
Battery 2 12.32v/12.32v (loss .00)
Battery 3 2.05v/1.95v
Battery 4 12.22V/12.47v (gain .25v)

As to the motor... no switching control (just on/off). As the
battery gets charged it slows down to just a few rpm.

Test #7 60 minute duration
60 min rest then collect standing voltage
Battery 1 12.36v/12.33v (loss .03)
Battery 2 12.33v/12.29v (loss .04)
Battery 3 1.99vv/1.97v
Battery 4 9.14v/11.61v (gain 2.24v)

Which indicates to me that there MAY be a difference when you split the positives or negatives with the motor. My original split the positives. So I am going to go back to putting the motor between the positives. His schematic showed THREE primaries and the motor between the positives of battery three (good battery) and battery 4 (bad battery).

Dave

[penno64]

Hey Steven,

Did you manage a look at GB Patent 763062?

Love to hear your thoughts.

Regards, Penno

[Turion]

Batteries

I picked up 10 bad AGM batteries at Batteries+ today, plus 2 of the 2.3 amp hour 12 volts to match the one I have taken apart for experimenting. Let the fun begin!!

[pault]

slight progress

After trying all last week, I finally found one bad B3 that starts a stock 12VDC PM motor after some hours (like 10, including a pause for a recharge of B1&B2). The previous 2 bad batteries were so bad they wouldn't start the motor.

I have a differential scope probe(s) across the motor (no ground, two probes +-).

I noticed that, before the motor starts, there is a small amount of AC ripple (0.1V) across the motor biased at the DC voltage across the motor (e.g. 0.17V, etc), and, every now and then a small burst of 2-way spikes (2Vpp and up) appears.

On the good bad battery (the 3rd one last night), these spike clusters were nearly continuous. Once the motor started, the DC voltage across the motor jumped, I saw what I assume is commutator ripple and no more spikes.

The attached photo doesn't do the spikes justice - the contrast between the trace and the spikes is too high...

pt

[Turion]

I hooked up two brand new $30 dollar apiece AWG 2.5 amp hour batteries to one of my larger AWG batteries (a bad one) that wouldn't let the motor start in the 3BGS configuration. I made the mistake of leaving it connected overnight. Today both brand new batteries showed 5 volts and would not run my motor when connected directly (well, barely, and then it would quit). I tried putting them on a charger, but it indicates they are fully charged and wouldn't charge them. So I took one of them and put it in the third position with two other batteries and ran it for two hours. At the end of that time the other two batteries had dropped in voltage and the little 2.5 had come up to 9 volts. Now it works on the charger again. Oh what fun. Still have one to fix and no positive results with the setup so far.

[pault]

My best good-bad battery B3 developed a tumor. After its first run, I left it unhooked (not shorted out, nor loaded), for some 6-8 hours.

I went downstairs to try the next phase and noticed that the most-positive corner of the battery had bulged quite badly and the glued-down vent cover had lifted.

It looks like it still works - the motor started right away, and adding a 12v bulb across it caused the motor to speed up.

pt

[JJUK]

After almost 5 weeks of testing I have not yet managed to run the system whilst at the same time seeing an increase in voltage across batteries 1 and 2. There have been glimpses of unusual behaviour but never lasting long enough to do meaningful measurements. I will be continuing to test in a few days time once the batteries are all recharged and intend to produce a summary of all findings in due course. However, I thought it might be worth mentioning something that I discovered today that others may want to think about and possibly use to evaluate battery suitability. I use an older variant of this charger http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/sh...49/mb3518.html. It has 2 LEDs: one indicates that the battery is charging and the other indicates that the polarity is incorrect. When attempting to charge those batteries that appear suitable for use as battery 3, the polarity LED never lights when the battery is connected incorrectly to the charger, regardless of the voltage reading across the terminals. I have 2 12V batteries that I have been using in position 3. One rests at 0.000V and the other at 5.8V. Both fail to trigger the polarity warning on the charger and both will accept a reverse charge for a while on occasion. This needs further investigation but I thought it worthwhile mentioning as it may help others when trying to identify suitable battery 3 candidates.

[tachyoncatcher]

Battery 3

@JJUK, @All
I have had the coveted, charging of the primaries, with 2 different batteries. One, for just one evening of fun with a standard motor. The other, I played with for nearly a week using the, before mentioned pulse motor. I would run the motor, an inverter, and various loads up to 150 watts, on the inverter. I had a couple runs up to 4 hours on the last good/bad battery and when I shut it down, my primaries would be fully charged! Now, I'm not talking some 100 Ah batteries, these are 7Ah. Then I tried to run it over night with a 100 watt load. The big test!

The next morning, I found the primaries drained. I put on a fresh set of primaries and...
nothing worked the same. My 3rd battery was no longer translating. At first, I thought a short in my motor, but no. Put my scope on the motor, Scalars abundant. Like my first 3rd battery/translator, it stopped working. I am still on the hunt for the next.

Things I found common on my successful 3rd battery/translator:
found standing voltage; less than 3v ( when drained will hold at 0 )
impedance; off the charts ( I have 3 different kinds of ohm meters and none could get any reading on these 2 batteries ) I can normally read good batteries and most dead ones.

Hope this helps.
Good Luck,
Randy

[Turion]

Randy,
What kind of meter are you using to measure impedance?

I know multimeters don't work because they feed current into the battery , which causes a charging action.

i have been trying to figure out exactly WHICH pieces of test equipment I need to buy, other than a multi channel oscilloscope. This is what I have been looking at:
Computerized 2 Channel Precision Battery Analyzer for All Rechargeable Batteries up to 18V 120W - EQ-UBA5HV


Dave

[Matthew Jones]

David
Thats just Load / Charge tester. You don't need to pay for that unless your looking for good batteries or something along that line.

As far as the bad battery goes what you see on multimeter in Ohms is not true impedance, and the resistance value gives very little information. A good impedance tester like the one I have will not even register a dead battery candidate. A good batteries impedance is around .002 +- ohms. And most of the meters return measurements less than 1 ohm. Above one ohm they stop registering.
As far as a Multi Meter goes well of course you get near infinite Ohmic value. You should not get conduction across the plates no matter what, so thats just useless for anything other than a simple reference. And most likely that will change with the wind every time you use it.

Matt

[tachyoncatcher]

Reference Point

Guys,
I use the ohm meter as a reference point for finding good candidates. If I have used improper terminology, I apologize.

• I first find a battery 3v or less, If the battery is dry, I add water to wet the plates. If the battery recovers from the water to above 3v, I don't use it.
• I take the battery candidate and drain the power from it completely.
• Let it set for a couple days shorted. ( We like sulfated batteries. )
• Stick my ohm meter on the battery at it highest setting. A good candidate will ALWAYS show infinite. The ones that have given me a reading, have never worked out. I test the battery in both directions in case there is some remnant charge in one direction from the battery that causes a reading. I do not know what goes on inside my meter, just that I get a reading.

I look for a stone dead battery. I have had no luck with those that are just weak batteries. Oh, some will give me longer runs, but that is not what I'm looking for. I'm obsessed over those two that charged my primaries. That is my experience.
Good Luck,
Randy

[Turion]

Matt,
I've just been looking for SOME kind of meter we can put on these batteries that will give us more information about what is going on inside them when we are getting good results so we can start narrowing this thing down. I'm not sure if such an animal exists! Got any suggestions? I'll pawn the Jag and get one...well, I would if I HAD a Jag.

Dave

[citfta]

Thanks Randy!

Hi Randy,

Thanks for once again stressing how important it is to get the right "bad" battery. We have had several people try any dead battery they have found and then not getting good results. Those of us that have seen the amazing results of the right dead battery will probably never give up on the search for the right "bad" battery or a way to make one. I just wish more people would have the patience to keep looking when their first try doesn't work. I just had one that only worked for a few hours and then it developed some kind of very high resistance in it that was creating a hot spot. From the videos Dave did it appears the hot spot is where one cell is connected to the next one right at the top of the case. So now it is back to trying again to get one that works.

Later,
Carroll