3 Battery Generating System

[shylo]

Hi Dave , my batteries are just regular car type ,they have removable caps that allow you to top them up, I always use bottled water.
I try all schematics that are here ,and some of my own.
All show the same thing ,charging at some points ,and dis-charging at others.
I've wound motors ,some work better than others.
The best run I've had was with collector brushes feeding the load.
Brushes are the key ,the on off situation, when the meter spikes is what we need to catch, I have had some success with transformers. But what you collect is less than what is put out , so far.
If I ever come up with something you will All be the first to know.
artv

[Turion]

shylo,
Thanks for that information. That's another strike against lead acid batteries. I am running tests with regular lead acid batteries right now, and am NOT seeing the same results I am seeing in a side-by-side run with AGM's. On both setups I have a stock off the shelf Razor scooter motor running a second razor scooter motor as a generator. On the lead acid batteries I get some good runs, but then begin to lose slowly on the primaries. On the AGM batteries the primaries drop a tiny bit, hold level, but then bounce back when I let the system rest and actually show a gain in voltage. So I am beginning to believe the AGM batteries DO make a significant difference. I would say more testing needs to be done, and I will continue to do runs.

Probably the first of next week I will start runs with AGM's in place of the transducers to see if the primaries can be lead acid. And finally will run AGM's as the primaries with lead acid as the transducers. I want results from all the possible combinations. But we need other people trying the SAME THING to see what results they are getting.

What we need is a standard bench setup that everyone is running where we can ALL substitute a variable and see what effect it has on our output. Right now everyone is all over the map....different motors, different batteries, different loads and on and on. We don't have a systematic scientific investigation here, we have a bunch of crap data we are throwing at the wall and hoping some of it sticks where we want it to in order to support our theory of the day. When it doesn't, we change theories like underwear. We need solid consistent data from a whole bunch of people. That was the purpose in bringing this out in the open in the first place. I already knew Matt and Carroll and Duncan and Luther. The five of us could have kept this all to ourselves and worked on it in silence. We didn't. We put it out there in hopes that we could get a BUNCH of folks trying this with the SAME equipment,the SAME schematic, and reporting the results.

But it doesn't look like that is ever going to happen. And when folks DO report in, we don't know anything about what kind of motor they are using or what kind or size of batteries. I have been trying to keep some kind of a record of what people are experiencing, but everyone is all over the map and it's crazy.

But that isn't going to stop me from trying.

Dave

[tachyoncatcher]

Careful

shylo,
Probably the first of next week I will start runs with AGM's in place of the transducers to see if the primaries can be lead acid.
Dave

Dave,
I did this early on with the modified 3BGS. Let me further define that. I used good AGM as transducers with the positives connected. I had the tops cut open to try and get wave forms off individual cells in the transducers. The battery/tranducer closest to the motor boiled like crazy spitting acid all over. The battery was ruined after the run. I would guess that had the top not been open, the caps would have blown off or worse.

All my runs are now with AGMs. I have never seen anything special with the FLABs. They can be used in the buffer position with success as long as the others are AGM. That has been my results.
Good Luck,
Randy

[Turion]

Dave,
I used good AGM as transducers with the positives connected.

Do you mean you used FLA's as the Transducers and had that problem and NOW only use AGM'S????? I am a little confused.

My usual state.

Dave

[CrystalDipoleMatrix]

AGM battery

We need to further explore the chemistery involving AGM batteries. They have a boron-silicate fiber sheet mixed with diluted sulfuric acid between the electrodes. Something is happening in there because they last longer and are toughter than the others SLA's. We know that almost every metals and some elements reacts with sulfuric acid. When they sulfate and with very high heat involved in the abusive charging, maybe there is a chemical diode formation inside the battery. Too complicated for me but really interesting. I think they can be radiant conditionned better than the other types of lab's. I'm sure bedini and callanan used AGM's without knowing what's really happened in the battery chemistery or did'nt they? Very, Very interesting discovery guy's. Really.

[tachyoncatcher]

Do you mean you used FLA's as the Transducers and had that problem and NOW only use AGM'S????? I am a little confused.

My usual state.

Dave

No Dave, I used good, non-sulfated AGMs for the transducers to see if just having the positives connected was enough to get charging on the primaries. It was not and ruined one of the AGM batteries. I have also tried various experiments with FLABs in the primary position and bad battery position and did not get charging on the primaries. I have never tried 2 bad FLABs as transducers. I was just saying I have given up on the FLABs and use AGMs only, for my experimentation with the exception of using a FLAB I have for the buffer position with good luck. Sorry I wasn't clear. I get in a hurry sometimes.
Randy

[Turion]

Randy,
No problem. I am just being picky because I want as much data as possible.

Since Matt has figured out how to make a "bad" battery, I am thinking about taking one of my bad AGM's (which is sitting at .07 volts) and pulsing it with a power supply for a long period of time, say a few days or a week, to see what the long term effects might be on the battery when you hit the pos with neg and the neg with pos.

Dave

[Mario]

Dave,

I agree that we have to be scientific and precise about specifying what we use and how we use it, else it's like finding the famous needle....

I would like to know something. When you recharge your primaries do you do it with inductive or capacitive pulses?
When you start a run on the 3BGS do you start with fully charged batteries? What voltage, loaded or unloaded?
When you start the voltage drops and then pretty much stays constant (in the good runs), or even goes up, correct?

We should also specify the size of our batts and how many watts power we run from the system.

Mario

[Turion]

Mario,
Things have changed with the introduction of this new circuit by Randy, so I will divide my answer into two parts to make sure I am clear.

Original 3BGS
I woud use a standard battery charger which I am pretty sure is a pulse charger. It is up at my property right now which is two hours away, so I won't be able to look for a couple weeks until I go up there, but I am pretty sure it is a capacitive pulse charger.

I would charge the batteries until the charger shut off, so the charged voltage varied based on the condition of the batteries. Usually it was somewhere between 12.5 -13.2 volts. I would begin my runs with a load of some kind on the motor, usually just running another motor as a generator shaft coupled together. I would always have a 7 watt bulb on the inverter attached to battery 3.

Depending on the bad battery, there are different things that happen during a "good" run.
1. The primaries drop just a little and hold steady during the run. When the run is over they return to where you started or a couple 100ths above where you started.
2. In some instances I have had the primaries begin to instantly climb in voltage as much as four or five volts, which I ended by increasing loads on battery 3 to level it out.
3. I have also had the primaries just hold at whatever voltage they were at when I started through the entire run.

In ALL these cases I was using 18.5 amp hour AGM batteries.

As far as output power from the system, that has been varied, and you are correct in that we need to accurately measure what is produced. I have all my notes, but my suggestion is that since the original 3BGS is a hit or miss proposition as to whether you can get it running and KEEP it running, we need to start over with the new modified circuit that WORKS consistently.

Modified 3BGS with five batteries

I charge my batteries with a capacitive pulse charger prior to runs. Again, the voltage on the batteries depends on the condition of the batteries. Mine are old, so they are usually between 12.5- 13.2 volts

I ALWAYS have a load on the motor...usually running a second motor as generator shaft coupled.

I always have a 7 watt bulb on the inverter attached to battery 3 to begin with.

I have not been measuring how long the bulbs run or how much power is used. I have a Kilowatt meter I can do that with.

As I said before...it is time to get scientific, so I am putting together a spread sheet of all the information I want to collect on each run, and will post it here in case others are interested in getting scientific also.

Dave

[Mario]

Hi Dave,

thanks for the info. I didn't mean that we need to know the exact power drawn down to the milliwatt, although it helps being specific. I meant more like how much power is drawn with respect to the primary batteries size, so that one knows more or less if he's in the ball park or not and what loads to start with depending on his battery size.

Mario

[OrionLightShip]

.it is time to get scientific, so I am putting together a spread sheet of all the information I want to collect on each run, and will post it here in case others are interested in getting scientific also.

Dave

Now your talking

[Turion]

Mario,
In order to get my system to tune with a 25 watt 12 volt bulb connected to the output of the 12 volt motor through a full wave bridge, I have been running 18 1/2 watts worth of bulbs off the inverter as a load. It has been my experience that if you increase the load on the motor you MUST increase the load on the inverter in order to maintain the voltage in the buffer battery. If you aren't in balance that voltage in the buffer battery will either rise or fall, and neither one is good. You want it to maintain level. But as long as you DO maintain that balance, you can increase the loads to the LIMIT of the motor OR the inverter. The more you put on one, the more you MUST put on the other to maintain a balance. That balance is ESSENTIAL or the buffer battery voltage will climb too high or drop too low and the primaries will start to discharge. And the longer it takes to get the system INTO balance, the more one of your transducers is going to start climbing in voltage and when IT gets too high, the thing quits working. So start with small loads, record what you need to balance, and then the next run you do, you can START from there and work your way up until you can put on a big load and instantly balance it because you know what load is needed to balance the system. Then you are ready to do some long runs under heavy load.

Yes, this means lot of runs where you get the system in balance, recored the data, and then waste the rest of your day recharging the primaries and draining and reversing polarity in the two transducer batteries, which is a BIG pain in the butt, but there are really NO shortcuts here.

Dave

[tachyoncatcher]

What he said

I would add; Whatever electric load you have on your buffer battery is running through your motor. This is why it is important to use a motor that can take the current. We have used the 24v, Scooter motor with good success. The windings and brushes can take the added loads of our tests.
Good Luck,
Randy

[Matthew Jones]

So it just kinda popped into my head and I may try it tomorrow. Has anybody just skipped the motor...

Just hook the system up minus the motor and use the inverter to keep the buffer battery from going up or down.

It can't be hard. The impedance of the transducer batts and the buffer battery is going to limit the current. So you could put an amp meter in there and at that point you should be able to see what the amp draw would be. That would give you a reasonable idea of what the inverter load should be to keep the balance. It might be 2 times the amp reading but it ought to scale at some point.

Just though if anybody had I would like to here the results.

I am going to try it. I am setting everything up this evening in the house to I can work in room temperature.

Cheers
Matt

[Turion]

Haven't tried that. Never even thought of it. Always assumed I had to have the motor, but since the inverter is pulling a load, you have current draw.

Dave