3 Battery Generating System

[bistander]

Generator

... it is the GENERATOR that determines success or failure. ...to have a generator that outputs significantly MORE power than is needed to run it. ...

BINGO!!! That's what I want to see. The generator with higher output power than input power.

[Matthew Jones]

The first boost converter is actually running surprisingly efficient. Efficiency is power out/power in, not current ratio or whatever you used to get 25%.

Output voltage on the first converter needed to be adjusted up to about 35V to get the system running smoothly. That number, 35.xx stares me in the face on the red led on top of the converter whenever it is running. For some reason I neglected to copy the exact value while collecting data last night. I probably have photo of it from test 2 on my phone. I'll check later. But for now, let's use 35V.

Converter input power = 12.2V * 6.78A = 82.7W.
Converter output power =35V * 2.18A = 76.3W.
Efficiency = 76.3W / 82.7W = 92.3%.

I charged the battery last night and will run another test today. I'll get all the data on that converter and double check. But its efficiency is about as good as you'll see at that boost and power level for a <$50 device.

Regards,

bi

Then where is the 4.47 amps on the ground side coming from?

See your mixing numbers. The converter is set to 35 volt but under runtime you measure 20.4 volt out of the motor. Now stock motors don't have off time and usually have pretty low resistance, so the output voltage should be pretty close to the input voltage. You may want to throw a diode on the output of the motor towards the battery. That may bring that 20.4 up because it will isolate that battery a bit.

Now remember your dealing with asymmetrical system you are not taking the power out of the motor and dropping to ground in the converter so there should only be switching losses on the ground leg. 4.47 amps is too much for switching loss. Maybe 10% or less of the input current.

So looking at the situation there is 3 answers that become possible the first is:
* 4.47 amps on the ground leg is a bad measurement.
* The boost converter under load drops out of the set efficiency and only under asymmetric behavior .
* The boost converter is working so well that the asymmetric behavior is near doubling the total output power on the board. Add it all up.
12v * 6.78a = 81.36w input
12v * 4.47a = 53.64w output to ground
35v * 2.18a = 76.30w output to load.

(53.64w + 76.3w) / 81.36w = COP1.59

Now myself I don't discount any of those answers, but experience tells me the simplest answer is usually the real answer.

So you gotta find that answer. And these kinds of thing happen. I used to have full head of hair and now I am mostly bald. Not a coincidence

Just some suggestion:
You might put the ground output back to the battery, the converter may have sensor on the output side that is making it drop off.
Remove the motor and use a known resistor to see if the same set of circumstances shows up.
If this keeps happening put the boost converter in a box, somewhere safe and only break out to reverse engineer the schematic. Or attempt to contact the company for a schematic. This is now a really valuable item.

Matt

[Turion]

Then BUILD one. I did a whole video on exactly HOW. But for testing, just attach a rotor to your razor scooter motor and use one coil. Measure the amp draw of the motor without the coil close. Then put the coil close to the rotor and measure the amp draw again. Then set up magnetic opposition so the rotor is attracted by the iron in the coil core but repelled by a magnet equally and measure the amp draw again. Logic, and further testing should show you that you now have a rotor that is BASICALLY unaffected by the iron in the coil core, so no matter HOW MANY coils you add, the cost to run your motor does NOT go up. Now wind that coil so it speeds the motor up under load and the amp draw of the motor actually goes DOWN, and you will see what is possible. These are NOT difficult experiments, and they absolutely prove what I have been saying. Then it becomes a matter of how big a generator you can afford to build.

[bistander]

Builds

Then BUILD one. I did a whole video on exactly HOW. But for testing, just attach a rotor to your razor scooter motor and use one coil. Measure the amp draw of the motor without the coil close. Then put the coil close to the rotor and measure the amp draw again. Then set up magnetic opposition so the rotor is attracted by the iron in the coil core but repelled by a magnet equally and measure the amp draw again. Logic, and further testing should show you that you now have a rotor that is BASICALLY unaffected by the iron in the coil core, so no matter HOW MANY coils you add, the cost to run your motor does NOT go up. Now wind that coil so it speeds the motor up under load and the amp draw of the motor actually goes DOWN, and you will see what is possible. These are NOT difficult experiments, and they absolutely prove what I have been saying. Then it becomes a matter of how big a generator you can afford to build.

I have built and/or tested dozens of motors and generators, from a few watts to over 200 kilowatts. I have never seen a hint of over-unity. You claim you can do it. You're making the claim. It is up to you to provide evidence or proof. Not me. You will not believe my build and data shows it does not work. It is useless for me to build to prove/disprove your claim. I've shown references where it is clearly stated the burden of proof resides with the one making the claim. Show me your over-unity generator in operation with metered output and input power. Just a simple request.

bi

[bistander]

Your test

...
To answer your question, yes, I did test this circuit. ...

So what were the results/data? Input and output powers?

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

Uh Oh

Bi,
I guess you are going to have to call the free energy police and report me then, because as far as I am concerned there is no law or rule or regulation that “requires” me to prove ANYTHING to you, just as there is no law that requires you to build anything I suggest. If you don’t want to build the generator, DONT. But don’t come whining around for help in the future because you had your chance.

I am assuming you believe the circuit you built on my recommendation is nothing special? Are you even LOOKING at your own data? I want you to remember this moment.

[dragon]

To me it looks like the battery is supplying 12.2 volts at 4.47 amps to the boost, 54.53 watts. The motor sees 20.6 volts at 2.18 amps or 44.9 watts. Around 83% efficiency. The 6.78 amp reading is deceptive because that is the combined current in that loop ( 4.47 + 2.18 = 6.65 amps ).

The output of the generator is 11.7 watts and the output of the 2nd boost is 10.57 watts, there we see around 90% efficiency. The battery is clamping the voltage at 12.2 with a .36 amp return or around 4.4 watts going back to the battery and 6.58 watts being dissipated by the load or 10.98 watts total.

[bistander]

Thanks

To me it looks like the battery is supplying 12.2 volts at 4.47 amps to the boost, 54.53 watts. The motor sees 20.6 volts at 2.18 amps or 44.9 watts. Around 83% efficiency. The 6.78 amp reading is deceptive because that is the combined current in that loop ( 4.47 + 2.18 = 6.65 amps ).

The output of the generator is 11.7 watts and the output of the 2nd boost is 10.57 watts, there we see around 90% efficiency. The battery is clamping the voltage at 12.2 with a .36 amp return or around 4.4 watts going back to the battery and 6.58 watts being dissipated by the load or 10.98 watts total.

I'm down in my basement lab running it as I type. The coupling is a bit noisy and irritating. But I have been poking around with the voltmeter and ammeter and coming to the same conclusions you just outlined.

I agree.

Thanks.

bi

[Matthew Jones]

To me it looks like the battery is supplying 12.2 volts at 4.47 amps to the boost, 54.53 watts. The motor sees 20.6 volts at 2.18 amps or 44.9 watts. Around 83% efficiency. The 6.78 amp reading is deceptive because that is the combined current in that loop ( 4.47 + 2.18 = 6.65 amps ).

The output of the generator is 11.7 watts and the output of the 2nd boost is 10.57 watts, there we see around 90% efficiency. The battery is clamping the voltage at 12.2 with a .36 amp return or around 4.4 watts going back to the battery and 6.58 watts being dissipated by the load or 10.98 watts total.

How does the current show up on the ground if nothing is being returned to the ground side?

I see what your saying though I am not arguing I just do not see the current path back to ground.


Matt

[bistander]

Thanks

Bi,
I guess you are going to have to call the free energy police and report me then, because as far as I am concerned there is no law or rule or regulation that “requires” me to prove ANYTHING to you, just as there is no law that requires you to build anything I suggest. If you don’t want to build the generator, DONT. But don’t come whining around for help in the future because you had your chance.

Turion,

If you recall, I got involved with you to try to help you understand why nobody, like that other forum, would take you seriously. Even back then, same thing: you making claims, remarkable claims, and providing absolutely no supporting evidence or proof. It's not a matter of free energy jail time or fines, just civilized human behavior.

I am assuming you believe the circuit you built on my recommendation is nothing special? Are you even LOOKING at your own data? I want you to remember this moment.

I've been pouring over the data for three days. I'll ask again. What is it you think is special about it? What did you see when you tested it?

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Ground

How does the current show up on the ground if nothing is being returned to the ground side?

I see what your saying though I am not arguing I just do not see the current path back to ground.


Matt

Matt, dragon,

Pardon me for jumping in but I've been perplexed with Matt's use of ground. Ground is arbitrary. It can be any node in the circuit you choose. Like the old Ford Model A 6 volt positive ground. In the circuit I just built and am running, there is no connection to Earth. I can call any node there "ground". So when you talk about "ground" it would be nice to have defined which node you have chosen. Especially in circuits where the negatives of the standard terminals of the components are not all tied together.

Regards,

bi

Edit:

Been running test for about 1.5 hours. Pretty steady at 42W from battery and 6W into the load resistor.

[dragon]

How does the current show up on the ground if nothing is being returned to the ground side?

I see what your saying though I am not arguing I just do not see the current path back to ground.


Matt

The boost circuit is separate from the motor circuit. I see the boost portion operating between the positive and negative of the battery - the motor circuit is operating between potentials of the boost coil with no connection to the battery negative.... basically two potentials in the same loop. This loop can't contribute anything to the battery's state of charge.

It appears to me that the generator is the sole contributor to battery charge in this case - or in other words - The motor/generator is the critical area where most of the losses appear to be.

Not being critical - just an observation...

Edit: "Ground" is sort of a universal term for zero voltage or negative. We tend to use the term loosely when we should be using "potentials" in reference to the connection. One might be more negative than the other making the other "more" positive, such as connecting between the negatives.

[Matthew Jones]

The boost circuit is separate from the motor circuit. I see the boost portion operating between the positive and negative of the battery - the motor circuit is operating between potentials of the boost coil with no connection to the battery negative.... basically two potentials in the same loop. This loop can't contribute anything to the battery's state of charge.

It appears to me that the generator is the sole contributor to battery charge in this case - or in other words - The motor/generator is the critical area where most of the losses appear to be.

Not being critical - just an observation...

Edit: "Ground" is sort of a universal term for zero voltage or negative. We tend to use the term loosely when we should be using "potentials" in reference to the connection. One might be more negative than the other making the other "more" positive, such as connecting between the negatives.

I appreciate your input Dragon never had a problem with it.

I ran some test today to look at this. The excess current on the negative potential or ground of the battery only shows up under this certain setup. With 3 batteries it doesn't act like this and with conventional setup both the positive side and negative side reflect each other.
I am going to isolate some stuff with diodes and see if the numbers change. From the ratios Bi's test showed.

Also going to put the OUTLINED circuit to a test using the correct equipment. Just got to get it together.

This is the sh*t I love, mystery!!! I want answers..

Cheers
Matt

[bistander]

Single battery test

Glad to see you into it Matt. I ended my test after 3 hours. It was still running strong but motor and generator were well done (very warm) and battery down to 12V. I took a round of data before turning it off. I'll put the data on the diagram like before and post it. I'll leave it together for a while. Just ask if you want additional test.

Regards,

bi

[altrez]

This is very interesting! I know that the 3 battery system that John shared so long ago works if you check my posts in the past you will see I have spent lots of money on that. However the one battery system is new. I ordered some boost modules that Matt posted a few pages back and will build / test the circuit and post some results.



-Altrez