3 Battery Generating System

[Turion]

Answer

I thought I made that clear. Reading it I clearly see all I said was the effect is different. Duh. One that is thicker is better than two stacked that equal thickness of the bigger one.

[thaelin]

3D printing

Hey just got a CR10S and would love to work it. PLA and PETG

thay

[wantomake]

Mmmmmmmmm....

Just a bit more info. Two of the two inch by 1/4 inch thick magnets stacked does NOT have the same magnetic field affect on the coil as ONE two inch by 1/2 inch thick magnet. just so you know,

So two magnets back to back has different flux fields than one single magnet? I'm not trying to discuss magnetism here from lack of experience on my part. But I can see how smaller diameter mags could be used on a rotor and be secured in place.

I really enjoy the evolution of this generator as you share that story here.

Thanks for your time and sharing this journey with me,
wantomake

[Turion]

Two magnets

Yes. One thick one is better than two thin ones

[Turion]

Time for Wine and Wind

Finally had some time today. No bench space, but the top of my table saw was available. These are 11 lb spoils of # 23. I will wind 8!strands each 127 feet long onto a spool. When I have 3 of those spools wound, that will give me 24 strands and I can wind all 24 onto a single spool.

Will shoot a little video of my coil winder and post it in a bit.
https://youtu.be/E1g7xnizTsc

[liber63]

Hi Dave
Video was very helpful. You have a nice set of tools.
When you wind the coil, do you wind each set separately and then you join the sets together in one spool, or you wind all at the same time?

[Turion]

Winding

I don't have any kind of bearing under my spools of wire. They sit on the largest washer I could find ((and rotate) which is on a nut that is tightened down to keep the bolt the coil spins on in place. So there is a lot of drag. If I tried to wind from all 8 spools at once, it would probably burn up my drill. So I generally wind three wires to a spool, then put four of those spools onto one spool. That gives me a single spool with 12. Then I combine two of those onto the final spool. That step generally gets my drill pretty hot. That's why it takes me so long to wind a coil. I have done nothing but winding for three days now, along with repairing this or that I found broken or out of adjustment. I hope to be done winding coils today. Then all I will have to do is build the adaptors to use opposing magnets on my coil testing machine. That shouldn't take more than a couple days max. Problem is, I have no time the next five days that isn't already scheduled for something else, so it will be Tuesday before I get any time again. But I will get this machine put back together here soon. Then I will be able to show a few things. Probably around the end of July. LOL

[Turion]

TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK> IT CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS> Take every precaution you can think of when you do this, because batteries can explode and they will seriously injure you.

I may have already put this experiment out there, but here it is again. I did it for some folks last night and blew a couple people away. Here is one way to prove my theory that when you run a load l(ike an electric motor) on a battery, the energy in the battery is NOT consumed by the load. It actually goes from one side of the battery to the other side until both sides of the battery are equal. As it travels THROUGH the motor to get there, the motor runs. When the two sides have equalized, there is no movement of current from one side to the other, so the load quits running and we say the battery is "dead." Proof?

Take a battery and connect a 12 volt motor to it. Run it until it won't run anymore. According to what we have been taught, the battery is dead. Not so.

Take a D cell battery. Connect the negative of the D cell to the negative of your 12 volt battery. Now connect the motor between the positive of the 12 volt battery and the positive of the D cell battery. It will run until you blow up the D cell and kill yourself. Why will the Cell blowup?It is charging while the motor is completing the circuit, and charging to a much higher voltage than it was designed for.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi turion, thanks for sharing and yes, I think we only lose the losses in the motor.

Here is my thinking on that, let me know how it compares to what you think.

The 12 volt motor stops running, because the 12 volt battery can no longer push sufficient current through the particular resistance of the motor coils at the voltage the battery is now holding.
Though when we place the D cell battery, with the motor splitting the positives, the resistance is now higher and the 12 volt battery can give more voltage through the higher resistance loading and push some current through the motor, I think.
peace love light

[Vinyasi]

The 12V merely lost its amp-hours, not its voltage? -- my guess

TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK> IT CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS> Take every precaution you can think of when you do this, because batteries can explode and they will seriously injure you.

I may have already put this experiment out there, but here it is again. I did it for some folks last night and blew a couple people away. Here is one way to prove my theory that when you run a load l(ike an electric motor) on a battery, the energy in the battery is NOT consumed by the load. It actually goes from one side of the battery to the other side until both sides of the battery are equal. As it travels THROUGH the motor to get there, the motor runs. When the two sides have equalized, there is no movement of current from one side to the other, so the load quits running and we say the battery is "dead." Proof?

Take a battery and connect a 12 volt motor to it. Run it until it won't run anymore. According to what we have been taught, the battery is dead. Not so.

Take a D cell battery. Connect the negative of the D cell to the negative of your 12 volt battery. Now connect the motor between the positive of the 12 volt battery and the positive of the D cell battery. It will run until you blow up the D cell and kill yourself. Why will the Cell blowup?It is charging while the motor is completing the circuit, and charging to a much higher voltage than it was designed for.

The voltage in a car battery must be governed by the mass of lead vs the acidity of the electrolyte?

While the amp-hours of a battery is the displacement between the two?

Since lead salt still contains the same quantity of electrolytic ions as before, no voltage has been spent? It has merely been converted from a more usable form into a less, or non-usable, form as far as amp-hours are concerned?

So, your experiment validates that voltage can be borrowed without any further cost since the car battery is already dead to prove this point?

The amp-hours of the car battery are also not undergoing any cost since they've been already spent?

The experiment is spending the amp-hours of the D-cell at a ridiculous rate of voltage -- determined by the dead car battery's latent voltage -- causing the D-cell to explode?

I suspect that the car battery's voltage was kinetic and then became potential? This is confusing since we often times call voltage a potential? I guess this is not necessarily true dependent on whether or not the battery is dead? Then, its voltage is in potential form, while a "live" battery's voltage is in kinetic format?

The D-cell must have reorganized the potential voltage of the dead car battery into a more active format to engage the amp-hours of the D-cell, but at the wrong rate of discharge more suitable for the car battery and dangerous for the D-cell?

[Turion]

Battery

When you connect a fully charged battery to a load, all the ions or WHATEVER (I'm sure someone will dispute my terminology, so I'll state right up front that I don't give a crap. I'm talking concepts here, not nit picking terms) are on ONE SIDE of that battery. They are FORCED there by the charging process which wastes an inordinate amount of energy to accomplish the task of charging that battery. You have a potential between one side of the battery and the other, so current will flow. It will flow through the electrolyte if given enough time and the battery will "go dead" or it will flow between the terminals through a load connected to the two terminals of the battery. The point is, nature WANTS the two sides to equalize. One way or another, they will eventually.

When the load, like a motor, is connected and gives a path of LEAST RESISTANCE for the flow of current, these charges, like water, want to EQUALIZE on the two sides of the battery. They will attempt to do this by moving THROUGH the motor and causing it to run until the two sides have equalized, or come close to it (a motor needs a certain amount of amps to even spin, so once the difference between the two sides is lower than that threshold, the motor will no longer turn, even though charge remains higher on one side than the other.) At this point you could use a light bulb to REALLY make sure the two sides have equalized as a light bulb needs very LITTLE amperage to operate.

Now make no mistake, a battery will accomplish EXACTLY THIS PROCESS if left to sit long enough. The charge that you heaped up on one side through the charging process will make its way through the electrolyte to the other side until the two sides of the battery are equal. but the electrolyte is a far less conductive medium than the copper wire in a motor or the filament in a light bulb, so it takes longer. Still gonna happen though.

Now the battery is "dead", because you have eliminated (most of) the potential difference between the two sides. no potential difference, no current flow. ALL THE POTENTIAL IS THERE, just split in half.

So when you connect the motor between the battery and a D cell, you have HALF the potential you started out with, which is a CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT minus what is in the D cell. To best see what is possible, drain the D cell before you start. Now you are starting with TWO "dead" batteries. That's according to what we have been taught. All the energy was used up by the loads. NOT!!! If you connect the motor as I have described, it will run. Because the potential between HALF the 12 volt battery and the dead D cell battery is enough to run the crap out of the motor, and will overcharge the D cell and may cause it to explode.The motor sees Half the 12 volt battery on one side, and half what was in the D cell battery on the other side (The D cell went through the same process as the 12 volt battery did) and that potential difference is huge. Current will flow and the motor will run until the 1/2 12 volt battery is equal with the 1/2 the 1.5 volt battery, the current flow drops lower than what the motor requires to run, or the small battery explodes.

[Vinyasi]

Brilliant, dude!

.....

So when you connect the motor between the battery and a D cell, you have HALF the potential you started out with, which is a CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT minus what is in the D cell. To best see what is possible, drain the D cell before you start. Now you are starting with TWO "dead" batteries. That's according to what we have been taught. All the energy was used up by the loads. NOT!!! If you connect the motor as I have described, it will run. Because the potential between HALF the 12 volt battery and the dead D cell battery is enough to run the crap out of the motor, and will overcharge the D cell and may cause it to explode.The motor sees Half the 12 volt battery on one side, and half what was in the D cell battery on the other side (The D cell went through the same process as the 12 volt battery did) and that potential difference is huge. Current will flow and the motor will run until the 1/2 12 volt battery is equal with the 1/2 the 1.5 volt battery, the current flow drops lower than what the motor requires to run, or the small battery explodes.

Oh,...
I get it...
By following the line of reasoning in the last paragraph, above, a new battery has been constructed out of two dead batteries! Voila! Brilliant, dude!

In other words, the displacement of amp-hours via a difference of potentials between two batteries may be carried on indefinitely until we run out of smaller batteries with which to reconstruct (ad hoc) a new, but temporary battery of lower overall amp-hours than the first in a long chain of temporary marriages.

So, once the D-cell explodes (well, wait a minute; we could put a resistor inline to thwart its explosion)....
Rewritten,...
Once the D-Cell is drained, a new battery could be constructed out of a hearing aid battery and the "dead" D-cell. This pairing won't be able to run the same motor (more likely run a flashlight), but will be a thematic replica of the prior makeshift pair of batteries (the D-cell plus the dead car battery).

-------------------

Well...what I was going to say (to clarify myself) before I read your last paragraph...
The displacement of the car battery's amp-hours turns the acidic electrolyte into lead salt. This is the chemical equivalence of equalizing the voltage at both terminals.

Yet, I'm not contributing much of any significance to this discussion. You're right on, there. Time for me to bow out.....

[Turion]

A footnote

I have been doing these experiments for years. To charge a 12 volt lead acid battery you must hit it with 2 volts higher than its standing voltage, with some amps, at the proper frequency. It has tremendous resistance to overcome, and much of the energy put into the battery is wasted trying to charge it. I challenge you to take a dead battery, put it on a battery charger to charge it, and connect the battery charger to a kilowatt meter to see just how much energy was consumed charging that battery to a full charge. MOST of the energy is wasted in overcoming the natural barriers in the battery. The smaller the battery the higher the wall you have to try to push energy over.

This is why MOST people have no luck with the 3 Battery system. They have no idea what they are doing. If they tried it with LifePo4 batteries it would blow their mind. If they could get it to work. LifePo4 batteries have internal electronics that monitor each cell and they do NOT like beige charged on the 3 battery system. All the electronics have to be removed, and they have to be closely monitored. Sensors and a simple Arduino can be used to do that, but that kind of research is beyond most folks here for one reason or another.

Still, once you understand what is going on with batteries and how to use them to your advantage, amazing things can happen.

[Turion]

3 Battery system

That is why the 3 battery system IN THEORY works perfectly.
Two batteries in series give you 24 volts. Then you put the third battery in parallel with these two, and run the load between the positives. As the voltage tries to equalize between the 24 volt side and the 12 volt side the motor runs and consumes almost nothing.

But in REALITY there are losses. What is REALLY lost here is that the potential between 24 volts and 12 volts is only 12 volts. You can't charge a 12 volt battery with 12 volts. To charge a battery CORRECTLY you must have at minimum 2.5 volts over the standing voltage, and you need some amps, and you need to PULSE the battery you are charging to give it some off time to absorb the pulse.
Without all that in place, you have a total LACK of efficiency. Plus there is IMPEDANCE in the battery that resists charging, and the smaller the battery, the higher the resistance. Big batteries work best. But you STILL need the pulse and the higher voltage. The boost module we showed gives you that higher voltage. Matt's motor gives you the pulse at the right frequency that the boost module does NOT. Now if you use LifePo4 batteries you don't need Matt's motor and it is hit or miss whether you even need the boost module. The impedance is almost non existent.

[altrez]

Now if you use LifePo4 batteries you don't need Matt's motor and it is hit or miss whether you even need the boost module. The impedance is almost non existent.

Hello Dave,

Can you explain this a bit more for me?

Thank you,

-Altrez