Alum conversion for lead acid batteries

[mauiflipper]

That sounds really interesting, but I think I remember John saying something about alum batteries doing that in the videos or maybe it was at the last convention. I was thinking of testing this on a brand new battery that was already activated with sulfuric acid. When and if I do, I will post.

My 2 volt cell is charging well. The Electrolyte has risen a lot and actually spilled out, so it must be working. I had to siphon out quite a bit.

[mauiflipper]

Looks like the rejuvenator is just not going to work with a 2 Volt cell. It generates too much heat, because it is meant for a 12 battery. I supposed I could convert 6 2 volt cells and try again, but that's a lot of work for a test. I will try it on a single 12 volt battery first.

[JamieM]

Slider,
Further to your comments,
My experience is that I converted a 12 volt car battery with NaSO4 (Gauber Salt) and the battery produced a standing voltage of 11.5v. With this you would wonder if would work ok. Funny enough even on the colder days down to lowest of 2deg Celsius it turns over the motor. Not with the normal confidence of a lead acid, but a slightly longer build up to the cranking of the engine. But constantly and reliably. There may be something in your comments about the build to maximum current.

Here's my hypothesis.
A lead acid cell is more able to deliver current more readily due to the fact that the H+ ions are so light so have little inertia.
In a salt battery the metal ion (that replaces the H+) is about 11-13 x the weight so takes more time to get going. When its get going it creates a better internal (current) flow due the the multi charge of the ion for instance the Al ion in Alum is a Al3+. Thereby delivering 3 sulphate ions for each 2Al3+. In essence the Lead acid is 2H+ versus 1SO4-- (exchanging 2 charges at a time) and the salt (Alum) is 2Al3+ versus 3SO4--(exchanging 6 charges at a time).

Furthermore I think that the process can be reproduced by any soluble sulphate that does not cause a metal (or inorganic solid) to precipitate out when electrons are donated to it by the electrolysis process. COPPER SULPHATE as a consequence does not work!
Funnily enough Mg, Al and Na cannot exist in native form in water due to their reactivity and could possibly be creating OH complexes with the metal instantaneously when this occurs. This may significantly complicate working out the chemical equations as it is likely that we liberate some H+ ions creating a weak acid. We then may have both a salt and an acid present.

My prediction based on my hypothesis is that Potash (Potassium Sulphate, KSO4) could also work. Ammonium Sulphate ((NH4)2)SO4) is a fifty fifty chance of working as there is a chance of ammonia gas being produced (not good).


BTW When I had my batteries tested at the local battery place they were shocked that they were outputting at least 2/3 of the original CCA of the battery. Considering that these were rubbish batteries that they themselves were generous enough to supply. They were astounded.

[JamieM]

mauiflipper,
I think it may be more productive to try and charge up the batteries when in the lead acid state with the rejuvinator in order to remove as much lead sulphate as possible before you start. Then try the alum. Its better to improve the battery as much as possible to begin with even if it just produces a higher fluffy charge.
This seems to be doing ok for me.
Cheers

[Matthew Jones]

I finally am getting some results recorded for this conversion. To bad the thread is all but dead.

Anyway I have had a 12 year old set of Golf Cart batts that cam with my golf cart when I bought it used. They are 220 amp hour battery tied in serial for 36+ volt. They all have Plante plate arrangement
The capacity meter has registered them at 90 amp hour. They were pretty bad shape with alot of visible sulphation, bulging sides, and slightly warped plates. No shorts though.

I tried using a radiant charge to bring the capacity up with no luck. I also tried a cap dump method with no luck.

Finally I have run across articles at different places about using Epsom Salt to desulphate batteries and decided to give it a try.
I mixed 2 cups of Epsom with one quart of boiling water and let it cool.
I sucked the acid off the top of the plates with turkey baster and refilled the cells with the Epsom mix to fill line. Closed them up and gave them a couple of shakes to mix the fluids.
I wire the batts for a 12 volt configuration.
I charged the batteries with 10 amp straight charger until they registered on the charger as full and measured them with the capacity meter. They registered the first time at 130 amp hour. The voltage was 12.3 ... Success!!

Then I discharged them at 10 amp for 8 hours. and they dropped to 11.5.

I recharged them again with the ten amp hour charger until done. The resting voltage was 12.6. The capacity meter read 156 amp hour. I discharged them too 11 volt again shut the load off and let them rest the rested out at 11.5 +-. It was a 10 amp load for 11 hours.

I did this several times making sure as the batteries came up I increased the amp draw on the load and ran them longer.

Finally wound up with 6 batteries recovered and I serialized the again to see the capacity at 36 volt arrangement and they registered at 205 amp hour.

So now I washed them out real good and soaked and charged them with just distilled water. They didn't take the charged but the water did get acidic.
The flushed and dried them out added alum to them. And charged them on the 10 amp charger.

The voltage in a 12 volt config is 12.35. I can run a 40 amp load for 5 hours and drop the batts to 10.9 volt. Rested they come up to 11.6.
The capacity meter says they are 14 amp hour batts so I am not sure whats going on with that but I know I can pull 200 amp out at a 40 amp rate pretty easy.
As far charging them they take 21 hours at 10 amp to charge and then they deliver 40 amps for 5 hours.

So not only is this really efficient thing to do for your batteries, Its great thing when it comes recycling.

Everyone who had something to do with coming up with this, have really done us all a favor. I really do appreciate that this info is out there.

Thanks Alot
Matt

[radiant]

This alum thing has got me thinking chemistry. Aluminium Sulphate can be created using the following process:

2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2SO4 → Al2(SO4)3·6H2O

Basically adding Aluminium hydroxide to sulphuric acid yields hydrated Aluminium sulphate...

Aluminium Hydroxide can be bought as an ant-acid called Alu-cap.

Wondering if adding Alu-cap capsule powder into the cells will convert the battery over....

Has anyone tried this?

[Slider2732]

Interesting comments, including the Alu-cap (haven't tried it).
Sorry I didn't reply to your thoughts JamieM, though your posts were read with keen interest.

As an update....the battery that was rising slowly in amperage when loaded, is now sat outside. I was daily charging it for around 2 months, until a week or so ago. I was charging it up with 3 small solar panels, giving a total output of approx 0.5A and 12V via an LM317T regulator. It would drop overnight to the same approx 9.5V and 1A as it has for months and would charge to 11.3V and 3A by the end of a strong summer days sun.
If used immediately in the evening, I could run up to 3A continuous, but overnight running has never been a test.
So, i've disconnected, due to it never really going anywhere as a powerful source for general 12V car battery usage. When tried on our car immediately after a days charge, the lights on the dash came on, but then just a click from the starter.

Would folks recommend to simply redo the alum conversion and, if so, at what dilution ?
Or, does experience suggest this one is probably as good as it could ever be ?
I dont have a car charger with 5A output to throw at it, hence the solar route.

[Nick_Z]

Slider:
My car battery just went out on me. I do have 10 amp car battery charger, but even though I charge this battery all night until it feels warm to the touch, it does just what yours is doing, and won't start my car. New one is needed.
I will use that battery on my Exciter circuits to see what it can do. I feel that what is needed is a 12v source, but, with only 200 mA of current, so that the transistors don't get too hot.

NickZ

[JamieM]

Guys I was just reading a post by John Bedini on another forum and he suggested that high voltage low current may help deal with sulphate on the plates if that is the problem. Slider can you adjust the regulated voltage of your pv output to 15-16v. That might do the trick! My only concern is that you are getting warm batteries which suggests possibly warped plates.
The other thing you could try is deep discharging the battery. Provided it has an alum salt it can handle it. I took mine down to 1volt and then recharged.
I did this about 3 times. They like to be exercised.
Btw the Gauber Salt battery is still working in my car!
That's 5 months!

[Slider2732]

@Nick - That battery is a prime candidate for radiant charging. That's how the other of my batteries went. Failed on the car and then did nothing with a borrowed standard auto charger.

@JamieM - It doesn't get warm at all under charge or discharge, just doesn't really hold much beyond 9.5V and 1/2A for long periods. In some respects, if I could just take it off charge and use it right away, then the issue wouldn't be there ! Arguably it likes to be used and kind of folds its arms at me if it isn't lol
I'll bet there's a bad plate. It was in the backyard for 2 years. Yeah, I built a voltage settable LM317T circuit some time back...so i'll dial that up to 15V or so, thanks for the tip. With it never getting to 12V, the 12V regulation was thought adequate.
It was initially rejuved on an SSG and probably needs a bit more of that treatment. One of our cats knocked the SSG onto the floor though and it smashed up...again...for the third time. So, I have to rebuilt it and then move it.

I think I know the course of action

[naninano]

Dear friends,
I have a 66Ah Pb Ca acid battery which worked 3 years.
Recently in one day it stopped its strong starting, one day after adding Sulforic acid instead distilled water to the low level cells.
Today, I bought 4 litter of battery acid and replaced the acid after draining old acid and washing the cells by baking soda.
I used the mixture of 1 teaspoon to 3 litter water and filled the cells, but I didn't see any tangible boiling due to baking soda just some poor bulbs visited.

I reinstalled the battery and started after half of hour strongly and I drove it about 1 hour.
After 4 hours, I checked its voltage that was 10.11 V and started again. Its starting was not bad. After above steps I think my battery is working too better but the voltage is dropping after several hours.
Now I want to know does the Epsom Slat is useful for revive my battery ? And how?

Thank for your replays.

[naninano]

Today(16hrs after last measurement) I checked the voltage again it is equal to 11.5V.
I removed the battery and drained its electrolit and washed and refilled it by warm water. I checked its voltage containing water is 11.68V and strongly power up a 55w headlight. I am wonderful.
Now I recharging it by a 19V 2A non smart charger and water containing.
I want to resolve the sulfates in water, because read in an article that water can resolve the sulfate better than sulfuric acid.

But I need you guides, because I don't know my method is correct or not.

[Slider2732]

@naninano I used Epsom salt on a battery that was failing and it improved slightly, bit better charging, bit better voltage and amperage. I'd say it improved by 1/2V to a resting voltage of about 10.5V and would charge to 2A or so with 450mA small solar panels.
The quantity was about 4oz or so of the salts, if I remember correctly.
There are guides on Youtube about it all i'm sure. That battery ended up converted to Alum.

And, speaking of which, I seem to have fixed the lowly output of the other of the 2 car batteries here. On seeing Lidmotor's new video on Youtube, I realised i'd originally mixed the Alum with cold dstilled water !
AHA! warm water is needed to properly dissolve the Alum. So, I put the battery in the full sun and shook it around after a few hours.
The battery now charges to 11.5V and output is approx 3A (same 450mA solar charging in the day).
It's now in service, running a cooling fan on my work table...and runs it all day without issue - it couldn't do that before. Next is to add an inverter circuit and run more stuff, like the 13W CFL on the table etc.

[kcarring]

I finally am getting some results recorded for this conversion. To bad the thread is all but dead.

I have a 27 series battery RV, deep cycle, that is similar in nature. It will charge and hold to 12.4, but left alone will sink to 11.0V. Lousy, but good enough to believe there are no shorted cells.

Like you, after many attempts using SS SSG, air core, and TSO SS SSG air core... I'm never able to raise the voltage to equalization, say 14.8 or so... despite having run through many discharges, re-tries, etc. It's been through at least 6 or 7 runs. It will handle a load, but does not like to hold above 12V while operating. In essence, it acts like a 20 a/H battery instead of say 75 or 80 - I believe it was rated at 80.

I'm doing one more attempt at TSO, and if unsuccessful, I'm going to tip it over, flush it with RO water and then use epsom salts.

The funny thing, to me, is though: this:

Epsom salts MGSO4

Alum KAl(SO4)2·12H2O

In looking at those formulas it's relatively easy to guess that the magnesium and Aluminum in each, respectively, will form the catalyst or conductive element... but ...

what is left?

Is it not the recipe for yet again, making new sulfuric acid H2S04?

[Matthew Jones]

I have a 27 series battery RV, deep cycle, that is similar in nature. It will charge and hold to 12.4, but left alone will sink to 11.0V. Lousy, but good enough to believe there are no shorted cells.

Like you, after many attempts using SS SSG, air core, and TSO SS SSG air core... I'm never able to raise the voltage to equalization, say 14.8 or so... despite having run through many discharges, re-tries, etc. It's been through at least 6 or 7 runs. It will handle a load, but does not like to hold above 12V while operating. In essence, it acts like a 20 a/H battery instead of say 75 or 80 - I believe it was rated at 80.

I'm doing one more attempt at TSO, and if unsuccessful, I'm going to tip it over, flush it with RO water and then use epsom salts.

The funny thing, to me, is though: this:

Epsom salts MGSO4

Alum KAl(SO4)2·12H2O

In looking at those formulas it's relatively easy to guess that the magnesium and Aluminum in each, respectively, will form the catalyst or conductive element... but ...

what is left?

Is it not the recipe for yet again, making new sulfuric acid H2S04?

You do not want to use the epsom salt with alum. You add epsom salt to the acid prior to converting to alum. This helps remove sulphation. Or if not removing sulphation it does lower the internal resistance a good bit. Either way it allows a battery with decent plate material, that has just been cooked to much to start to function correctly.

The alum mix will never allow the voltages to go to high. They will always be lower because of the PH of the solution.

Besides all the post's on the subject you can read.
Battery Builders Guide .

It pretty insightful and straight forward on the different types and solutions around those types of LABS.

Mine are still holding up good. They cycle out everyday and have nothing but a big transformer rectified hooked to mains to charge them. I have not seen either a loss or gain in the performance since I switched them out.

Matt