Alum conversion for lead acid batteries

[naninano]

@naninano I used Epsom salt on a battery that was failing and it improved slightly, bit better charging, bit better voltage and amperage. I'd say it improved by 1/2V to a resting voltage of about 10.5V and would charge to 2A or so with 450mA small solar panels.
The quantity was about 4oz or so of the salts, if I remember correctly.
There are guides on Youtube about it all i'm sure. That battery ended up converted to Alum.

And, speaking of which, I seem to have fixed the lowly output of the other of the 2 car batteries here. On seeing Lidmotor's new video on Youtube, I realised i'd originally mixed the Alum with cold dstilled water !
AHA! warm water is needed to properly dissolve the Alum. So, I put the battery in the full sun and shook it around after a few hours.
The battery now charges to 11.5V and output is approx 3A (same 450mA solar charging in the day).
It's now in service, running a cooling fan on my work table...and runs it all day without issue - it couldn't do that before. Next is to add an inverter circuit and run more stuff, like the 13W CFL on the table etc.

Thank for your replay.
After doing the processes now the battery voltage is dropped to 9.8V ! but I think its ampere is improved because the start is strong (including some ECU error a bit after turn on the motor).
I saw one of 6 cells doesn't boiling while charging , probably it is shorted.
Can I solve a shorted cell??!

[Matthew Jones]

Thank for your replay.
After doing the processes now the battery voltage is dropped to 9.8V ! but I think its ampere is improved because the start is strong (including some ECU error a bit after turn on the motor).
I saw one of 6 cells doesn't boiling while charging , probably it is shorted.
Can I solve a shorted cell??!

You have to take the battery apart to do it. It not usually worth it. If it was a brand new battery maybe, but I wouldn't mess with it on an old one.

I posted a link 2 post up. That book tells ya how to take the case apart, put it back together and what precautions to take.

Matt

[Steve_Y]

I know this is an old thread, but since it seems like a repository of people's experiences experimenting with the alum battery conversion, I thought I'd add mine.

Wanting to understand the chemistry better, I posted on batteryuniversity.com, and the following exchange happened:

On June 23, 2013 at 2:01pm
SteveY wrote:

I have just discovered that people are replacing their old battery’s electrolyte with a solution made from alum and distilled water. The claim is that the battery then becomes capable of deep cycling without harm and capacity is restored. It sounded too good to be true, so I tried to research the chemistry of it. I didn’t find much, but I did find one guy say that the new, alum electrolyte (alum is used to keep pickles crisp and can be found in the supermarket’s spice section) desulfates the plates, regaining sulfuric acid from the positive plate. Is this worth trying or is it simply the process of washing out the crud from the bottom of the battery that resulted in the battery coming back to life? If that’s the case, I’d think I could just put the sulfuric acid electrolyte back in (after filtering it) to save on the expense of buying alum and disposing of lead-contaminated acid. The reason I ask is that I just bought an old trailer that has an old car battery (9 to 10 volts, so probably a shorted cell, right?) in place of the deep cycle battery. Until I can buy a proper battery, I just need something to charge the cell phone and run the little trailer lights for a few hours a night. The battery is working as is for this purpose, but if I could get more capacity, I’d be a happy camper. Literally. LOL.

On July 1, 2013 at 12:10am
Bevan Paynter wrote:

You have 2 o/c cells(pos grids crumble- low volts/ sulfation speeds it up) - the only way you & I will know is to try it ourselves-I will find a suitable batt to try on- however I am doubtful- then again, m-t-ying electrolyte & just using water, batt will charge! At increased rate! Never waited to see how long batt lasted @!.

On July 5, 2013 at 2:32pm
SteveY wrote:

Don’t you mean 2 shorted cells? I’ve read that o/c cells will cause either a zero volt reading or if they’re only open under load, the battery will still read full voltage until you apply a load.

Anyway, as a test case, I used a 6 volt 5.5 ah motorcycle battery that was bad when I bought an old motorcycle. Then it sat for years. I charged it, and it was only 5.7 volts. Then I connected it to a 12v headlight, and it hardly turned on. Then I replaced the electrolyte with alum solution, after washing the battery out a bit with baking soda. (Black gunk never stopped coming out, though, so after awhile I gave up.) I charged it, and then, wow, the light came on much brighter and lasted longer. It still went fairly quickly, though, so I did a few charge/discharge cycles, using the headlight and a 12v heater/fan. First couple times, I discharged to 1.5v or so. The charger I’m using is a Schumacher XC6 in 2 amp mode. I’m not sure, but I think the battery improved after a few of these cycles, but only coming up to approx 5.7 volts still. Then I started discharging to .3-.5v for a few cycles, leaving the fan hooked up to it all night. Now, the charger turns off, but the battery is only 3.9v. What happened? The alum conversion definitely helped in the beginning, but now the battery is worse. I wonder if it was because I discharged to such a low voltage, or is it because 2 amps is charging it too fast? Another theory is that some sulfation is breaking off, liberating sulfuric acid back into the solution, which when mixed with the alum causes it to not work right. Any ideas?

On July 5, 2013 at 2:50pm
John Fetter wrote:

SteveY - You washed the active material out of the plates of a worn-out battery.

On July 5, 2013 at 4:26pm
SteveY wrote:

Do you mean when I washed it initially or during the charge/discharge? If initially, why then did it work better for awhile?

On July 7, 2013 at 7:39am
John Fetter wrote:

SteveY - While the charging would have the effect of improving the battery, washing it out would have the effect of destroying it. At some point the two cross, producing a small peak. You are wasting your time and energies.

Does this seem right? I mean, I washed it out first, so wouldn't it be "destroyed" right away? Why did it improve?

[Zardox]

Hi Steve
I have done an alum conversion on a new battery that I use on bench daily. The one I did contains a few other chemicals. A formula that John Bedini gave us on another forum. Although it seems that there isnt much difference between that formula and what I have seen others achieve with just the alum.
The converted batteries do not have as high a standing voltage as with sulphuric acid. Mine sets at about 10.8 volts when fully charged. The advantage from my point of view is a battery with strong output that you can have in your house or camp trailer without the worry as with sulphuric acid. Alum in a water solution is only slightly acidic and if it spills or you get it on your fingers it is not going to burn you like acid. Also if you don't abuse it, it should last a lot longer than the acid battery
When converting batteries a lot of people think they can take a really sick damaged battery and make it well again and it just isn't the case. Also charging with too high of amperage boils the battery and eats the plates. I have a battery out in my shop that still shows 12.6 volts but does not put out enough amperage to turn my truck over. I would say that that one probably has sulphated plates and I will put it on a pulse charger for a while and then try to convert it.
I hope this is of some sort of help.

[djbuggybee]

My first lead-alum conversion

So I have watched John create lead-alum batteries and seen their performance characteristics, so I thought I would give it a go and see if this really works. I have read a lot of people referring to these batteries as lead-alkaline; well that is just plain wrong! The pH wikipedia provides on aluminum sulfate is 3.3-3.6, and I myself have tested alum solution with litmus strips, yielding a red strip between 2-3; So the electrolyte is acidic.

Anyways, I finally bought a new 6v 2Ah flooded lead-acid battery (xtreme xt6n2-2a unv) and charged it up to 6.25v and discharged it down to 5.8v a few times to form the plates. Then I added a small amount of epsom salt and distilled water to the electrolyte to de-sulfate the internals and discharged/charged once more. Next, I emptied the acid and 'neutralized' the internals with distilled water and wash soda (sodium carbonate) until there was no more reaction bubbles, finally rinsing it out with distilled water until the pH was almost neutral (It was about pH 7.5). Now I have filled the battery with aluminum sulfate dissolved into (Just boiled) hot distilled water until no more alum would dissolve in. The first thing I noticed is the solution seems to have attacked the ('shiny') stainless steel silverware I used for stirring, leaving a tarnished gray color where alum solution contacted the material. Okay, now I have filled up the battery with solution and set it on the charger, which is a simple wall adapter with adjustable voltage from radio shack (Charge rate: 7.5v, 0.3a; dc). Hooray!

My final goal for this battery is to become a solid lead-alum crystal power cell that I can use in a retrofitted 6v flashlight for use during camping.

Ok, now is there anything in particular I need to know about these cells? For example, John said to charge them at low amperes; what will happen if I allow the electrolyte to become a solid crystal?

I am really excited about this new project! Wish me luck!

[macksrs]

renew not so dead battery

had a battery that failed to start the car. it was a five year old battery from walmart. jumped the car and battery worked fine for some time. i decided to mod the battery. did the cleaning, baking soda, flushing and filled with water/aluminum sulfate. 10:1. charged the battery and it's been in the car for over 4 months now and no failures. it's a 525 CCA battery but at fully charged it only shows about 346 CCA or so. going to run until it quits. down south so we don't need a high CCA.

[wsxian2]

What to do with the lead

Just a quick question.
I want to convert a 12 volt battery to Alum
But I am worried about the contents on the battery.
It must contain acid and lead.
What should I do with the acid and lead?

[jack82721]

Hello Guys.
After reaching the peak a few yrs ago and been involved in family matters for several yrs I want to get back into the fray.Has anyone used a real charge
charger on these critters.A electrcal charge is different than a carrier charge used by most.

[Laser]

hi masters this is my 1st post

because this thread is so streaky,I will give you guys some points

1: before to proceed to replace electrolyte in a battery you must be sure the battery is working ok with normal acid, in the case of 12v car batteries charged must read between 12.5 v and 12.8v

2: if the battery is not working ok, proceed to desulphate

3: desulphate can be done easily, you do not need baking soda or epsom salt


steps

a: throw the acid,wash the battery with normal water, refill with normal water and charge for about 2 hours,throw the acid, refill with water again,charge for 2 hours etc etc etc

b: repeat the process 3 or 4 times, remember to throw the water just after you disconnect your battery charger

4: purchase acid for batteries in a drugstore and refill your battery, charge the battery for some hours and make sure it read at least 12.5v

5:changing electrolyte

a. purchase Aluminium sulfate in a drug store (Aluminium sulfate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

b:mix 1/9 Aluminium sulfate/destiled water ( 1 liter is enough for 1 battery car)

c:throw the acid of the battery and wash the battery with normal water intensively

d: refill the battery with your new mixed electrolyte

6:you are done: test the battery now (must read equal or better compared with acid)

*****PLEASE NOTE******

using Aluminium sulfate as electrolyte have advantages and disadvantages

**** using Aluminium sulfate the battery will have less amperage compared to normal acid,so it is not recommended to use it in a car,unless you want to push your car sometimes

****using Aluminium sulfate ..if not used the battery can retain energy for a longer period of time compared to normal acid

****Aluminium sulfate electrolyte do not damage plumb cells

if you have questions ask

[wantomake]

Test?

Laser,
Have you conducted experiments to determine this? How did you test alum vs acid to know alum has less amp power?

I have converted several batteries and see little difference.

Just curious how you tested to know this.

wantomake

[Laser]

Laser,
Have you conducted experiments to determine this? How did you test alum vs acid to know alum has less amp power?

I have converted several batteries and see little difference.

Just curious how you tested to know this.

wantomake

I know alum converted batteries have less amperage because is obvious,
If you put alum battery in a car,electric windows works slower and the starter motor is weaker compared with idem battery+normal acid
( you can feel it, you do not need any amperage device to test it)

however this problem maybe could be solved inserting in the car a battery of higher amperage than the one specified for the car
or
try to enhance this alum electrolyte with some other element

anyways

I think alum batteries are not ideal for cars, are ideal to add some batteries in parallel for your house as backup energy or permanent energy charging them using solar panels,windmills etc

[Joit]

I know alum converted batteries have less amperage because is obvious,
If you put alum battery in a car,electric windows works slower and the starter motor is weaker compared with idem battery+normal acid
( you can feel it, you do not need any amperage device to test it)

however this problem maybe could be solved inserting in the car a battery of higher amperage than the one specified for the car
or
try to enhance this alum electrolyte with some other element

anyways

I think alum batteries are not ideal for cars, are ideal to add some batteries in parallel for your house as backup energy or permanent energy charging them using solar panels,windmills etc

Seriously,
I think you have no clue what you are talking about but only here to decry something.
"Electric Windows works slower " O really.......
It doesnt comes into your mind that the speed how the motor works there depends on the VOLTAGE and not at the Amperage?? But use it as valid point, oh right.
This motors really dont suck that much out that a Battery drops down at her Capacity. and if it would do, you never could even start a Car.
Seems more, its time for you to get a new Battery because yours one is simple junk allready.

I disagree with close all from your Points, also with how to clean the Plates, i am just to tired to bother with guys like you obviously are. Claiming wild things about Devices what you seems did not test proper or dont want to test proper.

I did not see any drop at the total Amperage from the Batteries i did convert and so did not a lot others.
Its even the opposite, this converted Batteries are more stable during the cold days as if they are filled with acid and have longer lifecycles.
Therefor your Posts and Points are pretty useless.
Greetings to that car-lobby, what you are working for.

[Laser]

Seriously,
I think you have no clue what you are talking about but only here to decry something.
"Electric Windows works slower " O really.......
It doesnt comes into your mind that the speed how the motor works there depends on the VOLTAGE and not at the Amperage?? But use it as valid point, oh right.
This motors really dont suck that much out that a Battery drops down at her Capacity. and if it would do, you never could even start a Car.
Seems more, its time for you to get a new Battery because yours one is simple junk allready.

I disagree with close all from your Points, also with how to clean the Plates, i am just to tired to bother with guys like you obviously are. Claiming wild things about Devices what you seems did not test proper or dont want to test proper.

I did not see any drop at the total Amperage from the Batteries i did convert and so did not a lot others.
Its even the opposite, this converted Batteries are more stable during the cold days as if they are filled with acid and have longer lifecycles.
Therefor your Posts and Points are pretty useless.
Greetings to that car-lobby, what you are working for.

electric windows depends of amperage not voltage,
when you go to purchase a new battery for your car, some sellers ask you if your car have electric windows or not, if you reply yes my car have electric windows.. they will recommend u a bigger battery
they know that a low amperage battery ( less than 60 AH ) will not move electric windows very well ,they recommend it because ppl after a few days will return for a biggest battery when realize the new purchased battery sucks

also this guy noted that alum' converted batteries have less amperage
check
Restore Old Car Batteries Using Alum

[Joit]

electric windows depends of amperage not voltage,
when you go to purchase a new battery for your car, some sellers ask you if your car have electric windows or not, if you reply yes my car have electric windows.. they will recommend u a bigger battery
they know that a low amperage battery ( less than 60 AH ) will not move electric windows very well ,they recommend it because ppl after a few days will return for a biggest battery when realize the new purchased battery sucks

also this guy noted that alum' converted batteries have less amperage
check
Restore Old Car Batteries Using Alum

"Some seller ask.." Sorry, But what is this for a Nonsense, any car has a Batterie inside what the Manufacturer put in to cover up all load.
Putting in a bigger Batterie as it is recommended can cause Problems.
If you dont know why, go and inform yourself better, why that is so, before making here another wild assumption.

"Also this Guy Noted" That "Guy" is not a trustworthy Page, all his Collection point to other Pages, looks pretty more like another Scam Site.

Also go and learn the Basics about Voltage and Amperage, you may find a beginner site at the web when you search for it and what fits for you.


Nice Try, but you failed 2 Times, Scambot

[Laser]

"Some seller ask.." Sorry, But what is this for a Nonsense, any car has a Batterie inside what the Manufacturer put in to cover up all load.
Putting in a bigger Batterie as it is recommended can cause Problems.
If you dont know why, go and inform yourself better, why that is so, before making here another wild assumption.

"Also this Guy Noted" That "Guy" is not a trustworthy Page, all his Collection point to other Pages, looks pretty more like another Scam Site.

Also go and learn the Basics about Voltage and Amperage, you may find a beginner site at the web when you search for it and what fits for you.


Nice Try, but you failed 2 Times, Scambot

the link I posted is not a scam
you must learn basics about voltage and amperage:
connect a small 12v battery to your car ie those small low amperage batteries for motorbikes , then try to move the electric windows in your car, you will note that such battery have not enough power to move them....
( idem voltage but low amperage= electric windows not works)