The reason for 1/4 wave length

[Leviathan]

Leviathan, your drawings correspond quite amazingly to the pyramid set up and HM 7 / 1/4 wave :





Very interesting Set up .... Thank you for sharing your experiences

interesting, now that you mention it it does seem to have a similar geometry to the pyramids, looks like I would be worth some thinking about

[Leviathan]

I personally think the wave length corresponds with the harmonics of the system..

yup thats true the harmonics of a system is determined by the geometry of the coil and its surroundings, when running my transmitter coil I can change the operating frequency up to around -100 kHz just by putting my hand next to the coil, also it seems to have differently shaped waves depending on what substance is near the coil, pretty interesting stuff

[packetizer]

Naudin Coil

these are some of the coils I've been using, I run them at around 250-350 KHz
using a slayer circuit with a TIP2N3055. With the big fat coil I can transmit enough energy up to 2 feet away to light a low powered led, the circuit driving it was pulling .04 amps at 4.16 volts, thats about .16 watts. The receiver I use is just separated conducting masses that I connect to the led, it doesn't use a induction coil as a receiver it would be quite impossible to transmit that much energy with induction using the power levels that its running at. Also the denser the mass the more energy is received, this next week I will be casting some lead to make some very sensitive receivers I hope to have some more pictures of my device in operation soon and more details on the receivers.

Hi, thank you for your posting those. Have you seen the Naudin coil (see)

JLN Labs - TEP Project - EM Vortex generator

regards,

[Savvypro]

ah yes very good question, when running this system with an AC signal my coils would have to be 1200-857m, however I am running these coils on pulsed DC with a very short on-time, which means that my signal can never be more that 1/4 wavelength. To make more sense of this look at the drawings I made, the cone with the 1/4, simply means that the coils field is at its largest while the current is flowing in one direction, therefor if I attached a DC power supply the em field would be equivalent to a AC signal at 1/4 wavelength. So even though my coils aren't 1200-857m long I can run a pulsed DC wave for and get the same effect if I used a AC signal at 1/4 wave length, the less on and off time(aka higher frequency ) for my DC wave the better.

How are you determining that your DC pulses are within the 1/4 wavelength limit. How long are your DC pulses "on" for?

How can the pulsed DC produce the same effect as an AC signal, seeing as with AC, you would get a reversal in the field each time the AC wave crossed over from positive to negative, or are you comparing to rectified ac, where you only get one part of the output?

I'm not saying your wrong or anything like that. I am just trying to understand how to replicate your setup. How to achieve 1/4 wavelength with pulsed DC, while using shorter wire lengths.

[kcarring]

@Leviathan

Thanks for your contribution. I won't pretend to understand what you are getting at, it seems I am having quite the mental block trying to determine how you take the Slayer circuit, which seemingly "does what it shall do", i.e. - it picks a frequency and runs at it, there are no capacitive tuning elements to the primary, nor the secondary - though they can be added... but nonetheless... you state that your winds are not long enough to emulate the proper 1/4 wave "wire length" but you obtain the same thing by using pulsed DC... which would seemingly require quite a fine tuning (or at least I'd think it would...) so, what exactly then, are you doing differently?

In this example I took my coil and struck a 15 watt fluoro to light end to end on the tube and it did not flicker in my view, though the cam shows it... at 1.2V and 13 mA, approximately 16 milliwatts.

The odd thing about it was, that, in order to get it to illuminate I had to 1. attach my output to the tiny hole in the actuall Fluoro electrode, so literally connect it, but more oddly, I had to hold the bulb at 90 degrees to the tower, close to the top. Once struck, I could then lean it closer to the tower. That I found strange.

I will read over your stuff a bit more, I would like to learn to fully understand the Slayer circuit and tune it to maximum potential, thus far everything I have done, has been tedious trial and error. And yet I read a lot of stuff; i.e. the mass of the copper in the primary should equal the mass of the copper in the secondary... but a lot of the information pertains to a true tesla coil, so I don't know how relevant it really is.

Thanks though!
Cheers
Kyle

[Leviathan]

Thanks for posting kcarring look like you have some experience with the slayer circuit. The secret to tuning you coil with the slayer circuit is to position the primary in the right spot, usually it is a little less than 1/4 the way up from the bottom. This is how you tune it to 1/4 wave length, the transistor shuts off from the feed back of the secondary, now when the voltage is high enough to shut off the transistor in a correctly tuned circuit on the other side of the primary will be oscillating at 1/4 or less wavelength A neat thing to do is to connect a oscilloscope to the emitter and collector of your transistor and slide the primary up and down, you'll see quite and interesting wave, and if you have a led on an av plug or something similar you can find where it is the brightest which is the sweetspot.

[Leviathan]

How are you determining that your DC pulses are within the 1/4 wavelength limit. How long are your DC pulses "on" for?

How can the pulsed DC produce the same effect as an AC signal, seeing as with AC, you would get a reversal in the field each time the AC wave crossed over from positive to negative, or are you comparing to rectified ac, where you only get one part of the output?

I'm not saying your wrong or anything like that. I am just trying to understand how to replicate your setup. How to achieve 1/4 wavelength with pulsed DC, while using shorter wire lengths.

ah good question, if you have a AC signal tuned coil to 1/4 wavelength there will be no reversal of the voltage that the coil will see, so if you looked at a sin wave and shaded in 1/4 wave length on every period you would see what the coil "sees" and that is a pulsed DC signal

[MonsieurM]

interesting, now that you mention it it does seem to have a similar geometry to the pyramids, looks like I would be worth some thinking about

Thanks for posting kcarring look like you have some experience with the slayer circuit. The secret to tuning you coil with the slayer circuit is to position the primary in the right spot, usually it is a little less than 1/4 the way up from the bottom

Just wanted to share with you the schematic of the Pyramid ... hope this inspires you

imagine it is your coil



also mentioned , the 1/4 wave that is in the following presentation:

Bosnian Pyramids - Exotic Energy Generation - ICBP 2011 - YouTube

[kcarring]

@Leviathan Yes, indeed I have played with and noticed the importance of the positioning of the primary and it's height and I agree, it is best exactly where you talk of. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind...

1. Of those three conical shapes straight cylinderical, slight conic, exaggerated conic (funnel) .. do you see one being better than the rest?

2. What do you make of the importance in mass of wires (primary vs. secondary) or perhaps the primary being fractional length of the secondary... anything?

I guess it would totally depend on what driver we were discussing but the Slayer circuit and the standard spark gap Tesla coil, are the two, that immediately come to mind.

I have noticed on very low voltage input a variable capacitor in parallel with the primary 0-500pF can be beneficial, but also have noticed that in higher voltages, it seems to make less of a difference, as learned from Gbluer.

[Leviathan]

1. Of those three conical shapes straight cylinderical, slight conic, exaggerated conic (funnel) .. do you see one being better than the rest?

2. What do you make of the importance in mass of wires (primary vs. secondary) or perhaps the primary being fractional length of the secondary... anything?

I guess it would totally depend on what driver we were discussing but the Slayer circuit and the standard spark gap Tesla coil, are the two, that immediately come to mind.

I have noticed on very low voltage input a variable capacitor in parallel with the primary 0-500pF can be beneficial, but also have noticed that in higher voltages, it seems to make less of a difference, as learned from Gbluer.[/QUOTE]



1. there isn't really a better coil but the different geometries allow different shapes of fields around them, so your coils shape mostly depends on what your using it for.

2. I haven't had done much experimentation with masses of the wires I would like to in the future, maybe it will create stronger fields that way.


Interesting note about the capacitor I think Ill try it with a scope hooked up and see how it changes the wave form

[tekmann]

in reference to the 1/4 wave tuning

Lets say we have a 100hz coil secondary. In tuning the primary do we use a 25 hz primary or a 400 hz primary? Both of these are correct are they not? What is 1/4 wave?

Bud

[dR-Green]

Lets say we have a 100hz coil secondary. In tuning the primary do we use a 25 hz primary or a 400 hz primary? Both of these are correct are they not? What is 1/4 wave?

Bud

Quarter wave refers to the conductor/antenna length relative to the full wave length (I.E. the operating frequency). If you want your 100 cycles per second secondary to resonate at 100 CPS then you must use a 100 CPS oscillator and everything must be tuned to work at 100 CPS, though technically your physical length of wire is a FULL WAVELENGTH at 400 CPS, but you are not trying to fit a full wavelength on it so forget that. At 100 CPS there will be a 1/4 wave distribution over the conductor/antenna. That is, the conductor is 1/4 of the length of a 100 CPS wave, everything must be worked around this 100 CPS regardless of the lengths of individual components.

[tekmann]

Quarter wave refers to the conductor/antenna length relative to the full wave length (I.E. the operating frequency). If you want your 100 cycles per second secondary to resonate at 100 CPS then you must use a 100 CPS oscillator and everything must be tuned to work at 100 CPS, though technically your physical length of wire is a FULL WAVELENGTH at 400 CPS, but you are not trying to fit a full wavelength on it so forget that. At 100 CPS there will be a 1/4 wave distribution over the conductor/antenna. That is, the conductor is 1/4 of the length of a 100 CPS wave, everything must be worked around this 100 CPS regardless of the lengths of individual components.

Hi DR-Green, Thanks for the reply. Correct me if I am wrong......but the way I see this is to use a 100 CPS natural resonant primary with a 400 CPS natural resonant secondary. Am I seeing this correct?

I have built tesla coils before but they have always been resonant primary and resonant secondary.....1 to 1. I have never tried a 1/4 wave or 1/2 wave as I do not understand the relationship/concept.

Bud

[Joit]

Hi tekman,
The relation is pretty simple. Figure a Sinewave. ~
You have a positve wave and a negative one when you draw a line through it ~-. 1/4 from the lenght would start at the Zero point in the middle, and raise until the first top Point. But i still dont really know too why it fits into most Configurations at best. It would be more logical that you can use 1:1 too.
Maqybe because you have lesser losses at the Pickup as with the full Sinewave?

[dR-Green]

Hi DR-Green, Thanks for the reply. Correct me if I am wrong......but the way I see this is to use a 100 CPS natural resonant primary with a 400 CPS natural resonant secondary. Am I seeing this correct?

I have built tesla coils before but they have always been resonant primary and resonant secondary.....1 to 1. I have never tried a 1/4 wave or 1/2 wave as I do not understand the relationship/concept.

Bud

It's not quite correct because it's a 1/4 wave resonator, so the natural resonant frequency is still 100 CPS.

The resonant frequency is a function of the inductance and capacitance, which are functions of the wire length and coil geometry, how the wire is distributed in space.



Ideally you would design the secondary to operate at a certain frequency and this sets the system frequency. A primary coil of any number of turns or wire length has an inductance, and so with a parallel capacitance it can be made to operate at any frequency within reason, so it can be tuned to engage the secondary.

Also this doesn't show 1/4 or 1/2 wave actions, but it's good for visualising such things. Note the reflection at the free end of the machine (coil).

AT&T Archives: Similiarities of Wave Behavior (Bonus Edition) - YouTube