Underground horticulture

[future pather]

No bugs required for healthy plants, unless you are talking about pollination and that can be done with a paint brush.

Yes I was thinking of pollination and about whatever in the soil break nutrients down enough for the plants to use.

If we are missing something feel free to shed light. Or were you just "nicely" saying our ideas suck, lol. Either way I'm reluctant to propose further ideas at this point. . .Is this a riddle or what?

[David Barclay]

Never intended to suggest anyone's ideas sucked and I don't see this thread as a riddle.

I just think underground horticulture is extremely interesting and further study could lead to some innovative methods by which to feed hungry people.

And considering the level of pollution on our planet these underground sites are pretty much pollution free.

There is a site in the eastern USA where they grow mushrooms underground, tons of them each year. They pretty much pack and ship them 24/7.

If you were growing bean sprouts underground you might have a difficult job packing them fast enough, because production would over take your packaging capacity.

[David Barclay]

Yes I was thinking of pollination and about whatever in the soil break nutrients down enough for the plants to use.

If we are missing something feel free to shed light. Or were you just "nicely" saying our ideas suck, lol. Either way I'm reluctant to propose further ideas at this point. . .Is this a riddle or what?

In respect to underground horticulture you bring nutrient rich soil from the surface, but no fertilizers or pesticides are required.

Pollination would have to be done by hand because there are no bugs of any kind down there. Bugs don't venture underground more than a few feet from the mine entrance.

No, the plants grow faster. So much faster that at the Creighton site they are getting 2 year old seedlings from seed in just a few months, which is incredible.

If you had plants, such as green beans, which took 60 to 70 days from seed to maturity at surface you would have the same beans in less than 2 weeks or 10 to 12 days, which in my view is amazing.

[David Barclay]

So, what kinds of grow lights did you use?

I'm just an interested observer...but I believe they are sodium lights.

[David Barclay]

On a semi-related note, I am fascinated by the postulation that Buckminster Fuller came up with that a large globe (geodesic, of course) filled with plants would float above the earth if it was just a few degrees warmer than ambient temperature kind of like a hot air balloon. He thought that the sun's radiation would naturally make it a few degrees warmer and that all we would need to do is tether it to keep it from getting blown away. They could be used in places where no one lives, thus freeing up valuable real estate for other uses. If I remember correctly, his main impetus for doing this was to eliminate pests and pesticides from our food supply.
I'm liking the idea of this underground thing, though. If we end up in an ice age, underground is going to be the place to be. We would have to be very conscientious about replenishing the soil it would seem. It would be interesting to find out the minimum distance required for optimum growth. This would probably work well in areas that are deserts now but with flowing water underground with solar cells and/or wind generators to provide the necessary electricity.

I believe the optimum depth depends to some extent on the species of plants involved.

You would grow different plant types at different levels.

For plants that like it warm, 3000 meters would provide roughly 30 degrees C year round, which is very cozy warm.

Solar power could or would provide all required electrical power.

[future pather]

. . .And considering the level of pollution on our planet these underground sites are pretty much pollution free.

There is a site in the eastern USA where they grow mushrooms underground, tons of them each year. They pretty much pack and ship them 24/7.

So are you saying you believe it is the lack of pollution that causes the increased growth in plants grown underground?

Do the mushrooms grown underground also grow at a faster rate than we see up here? (If so is there a cause sited?)


Jessica

[don3332]

1500 meters below sea level = 20% higher kPa (approx.)

Here's a somewhat related discussion found elsewhere:


Self Service Science - ABC Science Online Forum

From: Dez 17/11/2008 9:30:50 AM
Subject: Atmospheric pressure post id: 3892405
Hi, I work in an underground mine. It was brought up the other day that the atmospheric pressure got higher as we went deeper. The lowest part of the mine is 700m below sea level. I was wondering how much more pressure would we be under, or if it would be noticable at all?

From: Wattie ® 17/11/2008 11:43:23 AM
Subject: re: Atmospheric pressure post id: 3892535
Good question Dez,

Looking forward to the answer.....

Based on the same question, most of the mines around here.(Kalgoorlie) are below 1km so would like the same question based at this depth.

From: mollwollfumble (Physics) 17/11/2008 12:14:52 PM
Subject: re: Atmospheric pressure post id: 3892559
Your own answer will depend on the variation of temperature and relative humidity in your mine, but the U.S. standard atmosphere says the following:

Depth_below_sea_level , Pressure(kPa)
0 , 101.3
500 , 107.5
1000 , 113.9
1500 , 120.7
2000 , 127.8
etc.

Published figures for temperature, pressure and density go down to 5000 m below sea level.
------------------------------------------------------( after this topic they drift off into figuring out the air pressure in the old "tunnel through to the center of the earth" scenario.........
__________________________________________________ ______________

This seems like a noticeable increase in air pressure. Higher pressure would mean more air molecules for the plants. I don't remember the name of the researcher, (just that he was in Japan) that grew a tomato plant in a chamber with increased air pressure and the thing grew HUGE (like two stories or more tall) and was placed into a pressurized chamber in some shopping mall or something like a mall. Supposedly, he got truckloads of tomatoes from this one plant. High quality fruit, healthy plant.

Hyperbaric chambers (with extra O2) are used by many people to treat various illnesses and injuries. Pro-football teams in the US all use them for the players. It forces extra oxygen into the whole body system, flushes out toxins, etc.

Fossils of giant dragonflies, pterodactyls, etc. are the norm, yet apparently there seems to be arguments as to how they could have been able to fly. A higher overall air pressure on the earth would have been an asset for flying animals that were "too big to fly".
Maybe the plants we have today aren't "normal" but just "stunted". The original, higher air pressure allowing a more lush, user-friendly environment for the "normal" plants and creatures then.

for what it's worth,

Don

[David Barclay]

The important part of the scale shown is "below sea level".

Neither of the mines I mentioned are below sea level or are any of their work areas below sea level, so pressure is not a factor.

What I am suggesting is that there is a distinct increase in energy underground which increases with depth.

The point is that the plants grow faster in all cases and the rate of growth increases with depth.

[David Barclay]

So are you saying you believe it is the lack of pollution that causes the increased growth in plants grown underground?

Do the mushrooms grown underground also grow at a faster rate than we see up here? (If so is there a cause sited?)


Jessica

Yes, there is less pollution, that's for sure, but I do not consider that the reason why plants grow so much faster underground with the rate of growth increasing with depth.

Yes, mushrooms grown underground grow faster than at surface.

Any and all plants will grow faster underground, but once transplanted to surface sites their growth rate returns to normal, but at the same time they are more resistant to fungus and disease.

No cause is sited, and no peer reviewed papers available.

The only explanation I have come across suggests it is due to their being no wind and rain underground, but I don't think this is the cause of accelerated growth rates...at least not to the extent of 400 to 500% faster growth rates, which is nothing short of astounding.

[David Barclay]

Hyperbolic chambers are amazing, but like you say there is added oxygen under pressure which explains the process.

Underground there is no additional pressure, unless you are below sea level, which is not the case at the sites I am familiar.

Big is one thing, faster is another thing.

Underground you get the normal size of a plant but in a much shorter time frame, such as a 500% increase in the rate of growth and development.

It would be equivalent to having a child who had in their first year of life grown into a healthy five year old child, who was now quite ready to head off to school and was found to be resistant to all the normal childhood illnesses their classmates might have to suffer through.

I think someone would want to know what caused this to happen...but in the case of plants there doesn't seem to be the kind of interest one might otherwise expect.

[David Barclay]

Here's a somewhat related discussion found elsewhere:


Self Service Science - ABC Science Online Forum

From: Dez 17/11/2008 9:30:50 AM
Subject: Atmospheric pressure post id: 3892405
Hi, I work in an underground mine. It was brought up the other day that the atmospheric pressure got higher as we went deeper. The lowest part of the mine is 700m below sea level. I was wondering how much more pressure would we be under, or if it would be noticable at all?

From: Wattie ® 17/11/2008 11:43:23 AM
Subject: re: Atmospheric pressure post id: 3892535
Good question Dez,

Looking forward to the answer.....

Based on the same question, most of the mines around here.(Kalgoorlie) are below 1km so would like the same question based at this depth.

From: mollwollfumble (Physics) 17/11/2008 12:14:52 PM
Subject: re: Atmospheric pressure post id: 3892559
Your own answer will depend on the variation of temperature and relative humidity in your mine, but the U.S. standard atmosphere says the following:

Depth_below_sea_level , Pressure(kPa)
0 , 101.3
500 , 107.5
1000 , 113.9
1500 , 120.7
2000 , 127.8
etc.

Published figures for temperature, pressure and density go down to 5000 m below sea level.
------------------------------------------------------( after this topic they drift off into figuring out the air pressure in the old "tunnel through to the center of the earth" scenario.........
__________________________________________________ ______________

This seems like a noticeable increase in air pressure. Higher pressure would mean more air molecules for the plants. I don't remember the name of the researcher, (just that he was in Japan) that grew a tomato plant in a chamber with increased air pressure and the thing grew HUGE (like two stories or more tall) and was placed into a pressurized chamber in some shopping mall or something like a mall. Supposedly, he got truckloads of tomatoes from this one plant. High quality fruit, healthy plant.

Hyperbaric chambers (with extra O2) are used by many people to treat various illnesses and injuries. Pro-football teams in the US all use them for the players. It forces extra oxygen into the whole body system, flushes out toxins, etc.

Fossils of giant dragonflies, pterodactyls, etc. are the norm, yet apparently there seems to be arguments as to how they could have been able to fly. A higher overall air pressure on the earth would have been an asset for flying animals that were "too big to fly".
Maybe the plants we have today aren't "normal" but just "stunted". The original, higher air pressure allowing a more lush, user-friendly environment for the "normal" plants and creatures then.

for what it's worth,

Don

I think the subject of additional O2 and H2O2 would make an interesting thread, as oxygen therapy is nothing short of amazing.

[Cloxxki]

It would not be overly hard to try and grow a mustard plant inside a large glass chamber, held at over-athmospheric pressure, and/or increased O2 + CO2 percentage. Compare groth with same plants in ventilated or otherwise conditioned chambers.

Who knows, maybe in a few years greenhouse farmers will have Oxygen and CO2 be blown over the plants? Pressurizing the greenhouses may be a bit harder.

Once you're doing this, adding fruit flies to one chamber would be mighty interesting as well, but the next logical step would freak me out a bit.

[CosmicFarmer]

Earth current

Plants are electrical creatures too http://www.electrotherapymuseum.com/...DSC00600_A.jpg

I belive the plants love earth currents. They want to get as much as they can. I have read that plants use electric potential differences between grounded roots and aerial branches to draw moisture up. So it is not suprising to me to read this thread, it just makes sense to me that the plants are getting more earth energy the deeper they go. Plants have been known to grow in a darkened box connected to copper outside and a ground (copper plate sunshine antenna connected to box-garden copper top, plants, and bottom plate is grounded) and also plants have been known to speed their growth using static HV in various places and times, at a much more efficient rate then sunshine. (kw/h spent in sq/ft over time compared to what device powered the plants)

Plants that are being treated with electrotherapy require more water. It would be interesting to see how these speed-trees were fed.

Also plants speed up (protein?) production when they 'hear' the exact protein resonance frequency (acoustic, em pulse, light pulse, etc) and I believe some birds naturally use those tones in their songs. not explaining why the cave works the way it does, just another thing to think about.

One last thing. CSE from Viktor G. Anyone have any ideas if that plays a part? IMHO CSE is same force as the one Reich discovered.

of course, its the life energy. You feel that when you go gardening or in a cave. The book "Shape power" by Dan Davidson explains some at the end, how there are exercises you can do to sensitize yourself to the energies.

Its hard to separate the crazies from the truth, the only way is to keep an open mind, learn the universal truths, and try yourself.

[cherylk]

Underground Horticulture

I think Underground Horticulture overcomes all the associated traditional problems like change in weather (except when its below the sea level), drought etc.

Also, Soil profiling is an important step in Underground Horticulture.

By the way, I came across a preview of a book on another type of Horticulture called 'High Plains Horticulture'.

Regards,
Cheryl