Who performs the first longitudinal Moon-Bounce in history?

[lamare]

From Radio Engineers Handbook:

These are all transverse electro magnetic modes. The dielectric longitudinal wave we are after is the one without magnetic component. The mode missing in ALL the textbooks I have seen this far.

We will see where this goes. I have the feeling that with my sleeve balun design we have a pretty good chance of success. So, I'm going to build one and if all goes well, I will have it tested at january 14th, 2012. Then there is a "measuring day" well known by the best radio amateurs in North Western Europe, where there is equipment available the avaredge radio amateur can only dream of.

So, wish me luck!




-- Arend --

[t-rex]

These are all transverse electro magnetic modes. The dielectric longitudinal wave we are after is the one without magnetic component. The mode missing in ALL the textbooks I have seen this far.

Just trying to post some correction of facts. I read the entire Terman book 3 or 4 times.

These are NOT Transverse E.M. waves, THEY ARE NOT!



Mind Virus Cancellation:

Tm (m is subscipt), Transverse Magnetic
A.K.A.
Ld (d is subscript), Longitudinal Dielectric.

Also,
"Te" = "Lm", etc.

Your "Tm(subscript) 01" Good Idea "Ld(subscript)" Longitudinal Dielectric.
That "Te(subscript) 01" fascinates me!

But don't let me distract you
Good luck with the...

Lamare Lunar Initiative, L.L.I.

[lamare]

Just trying to post some correction of facts. I read the entire Terman book 3 or 4 times.

These are NOT Transverse E.M. waves, THEY ARE NOT!



Mind Virus Cancellation:

Tm (m is subscipt), Transverse Magnetic
A.K.A.
Ld (d is subscript), Longitudinal Dielectric.

Also,
"Te" = "Lm", etc.

Your "Tm(subscript) 01" Good Idea "Ld(subscript)" Longitudinal Dielectric.
That "Te(subscript) 01" fascinates me!

But don't let me distract you
Good luck with the...

Lamare Lunar Initiative, L.L.I.

You are right in that these are not standard transverse E.M. waves aka "Hertzian waves", BUT they all are E.M. waves because they all have a magnetic component. I think the dielectric longitudinal wave does not have a magnetic component. In other words: it does not create rotational disturbances in the ether a.k.a. the magnetic field. At least they should be much smaller in magnitude.

Some time ago, I made an analysis of how waves propagate along a coil:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post75837
Article:Free Electric Energy in Theory and Practice - PESWiki

Let's look a bit deeper into resonating coils. As I stated before, Stifflers circuit resonates a coil at a multiple of its natural ground resonance frequency. Since the coil windings have a parasite capacitance towards one another, part of the electric energy, which is a wave, travels across these capacitances.

Usually, these parasite capacitors are only considered as a whole in order to calculate the natural ground resonance frequency of a coil. But they are very significant when we want to understand what happens with Stifflers circuit, the Joule Thief, Stanley Meyers stuff and all other resonating free energy coil systems.

I have been thinking about this for quite a while, but up to yesterday, I never understood what is actually happening inside a coil and wondered wether or not you could get the same effect by putting a bunch of caps in series and put those in resonance.

Then I realised that a coil wire is round and that the current, the electrons, actually travel across the surface of a wire. If we only consider the longitudinal component of the resonating waves along a coil, we are looking into the electrical wave traveling along the coil, perpendicular to the coil wires. In other words: we consider an electrical component that travels perpendicular to what we usually consider the direction of the currents going trough the wire.

I made some sketches which I have attached. The first page is just a rough sketch with some notes illustrating my line of thinking, but not much more.

If you take a look at the second pge, you see at the top-left two parts of coil windings, with at the top-right a model made up of capacitors, which is how you would usually think about these kind of things. If we consider the wire in the model connecting the different capacitors, and consider a current going trough there, you will have a magnetic field H curling around the wire.

However, the real parasite capacitors at the surface of coil wires are not at all connected to one another with straight wires. It’s a round surface, so the electrons will make curves, spirals, moving between the “capacitor plates”. So, you won’t get a H field curling around, but you will get an H field in parallel with the coil wires!

When I made this second page, I assumed there would be a resulting current spiraling around the surface of the wire. Then I realised that there is actually no reason to assume this spiralling current to have any preference for a particular direction. In other words: half of the electrons traveling between the capacitor plates will go in one direction, the other half will go in the other direction. And that is very interesting, since we now have an electric field propagating between the coil windings, *without* a resulting magnetic field!!!

And, if there’s no magnetic component, there’s no Poynting vector, and therefore no radiation of energy…

Very interesting, because this might give us some hints on how to make signal guides for longitudinal electric waves. One tends to think in the direction of putting several isolated wires in a row. Then, you would have the capacitive coupling to propagate the energy, while the spiralling currents prevent any magnetic component to spring up and radiate our precious energy away into outer space……

The sketches, page 2:

Conclusion: The longitudinal component of the wave across coil windings has the magnetic field component H in parallel with the wire, while the current moves perpendicular to the coil wire, across the surface. In order words: when f goes to infinity, the external supplied current goes to zero.

Page 3:

There is no reason to assume there is a difference between I_l and I_r. Probably 50% of the electrons go left, 50% go richt. So, H_left == H_right. Or: H_result == 0.

Conclusion: Because of the shape of the coil wires, a pure electrical wave is possible, without magnetic component and without et electrical current to feed in from the outside.

Also see: The L.M.D./T.E.M.Test

So, we are looking for a propagation mode without magnetic component, which is a different mode than a TM mode, since a TM mode still has a transverse magnetic component along with a longitudinal electric component, which eventually is why the TM mode will almost certainly still propagate at a speed of c, and not pi/2 times c.


It is interesting to look at the probes they are using with the TM mode (left part of fig 129):

It looks like they are also using a sleeve balun, only this one is placed at the outside of the wave guide, while the ground / reflector plane is at the feed point, at the point where your feed current activates your wave, which means eddy currents, etc. will be induced in the plane, which appears to be the mechanism to create the conditions for a magnetic component to propagate along the surface of the pipe.

I suspect that when I place the ground/reflector plane at a tip of a dipole, where there is no current in the propagation direction, that you can get rid of this magnetic component, at least to a much larger degree than with the feed used for the TM modes.

The longitudinal antennae ideas seem stuck in the mud. Seems everything is quasi E.M. "Electrical Soundwaves in the Aether", Tesla. Only two ways I see; a form of open ended circular waveguide. One mode, hard to excite, is longitudinal. Please post circular waveguide mode chart (Frederich Terman)!!

I think the mode we're after is a mode without magnetic component, which I think is actually very easy to excite with the proper probe, because the diameter of the pipe is one of the most important parameters in all these E.M. modes, because the conductor surface has to support the magnetic component, which is why only certain diameters work.

However, for the longitudinal dielectric mode, the diameter is not critical at all, just like in the acoustic world of Helmholtz. So, any diameter that is smaller than required for any E.M. mode to propagate should do.

[lamare]

Today, I made a new probe according to the new design:

I used a 5 cents coin to close the top of the sleeve and solder the coax feed line in. For the ground plane reflector I used a piece of PCB, where I scratched away the copper from the center, while the dielectric material gives some mechanical support to the coax feed line. I took that one 15 cm, which should be a half wave length, considering the propagation speed factor of the aircom plus dielectric which I used in the coax feed line, which is a piece of 10 mm diameter 0,6 mm thickness copper tube, where the dielectric and core of a piece of Aircom plus coax fits very nice.

The length of the sleeve is adustable, because it can move back and forth within the socket. And the length of the whip is also adjustable, because I added a tube that fits just around the core of the coax, which can move back and forth around the whip.


More photos here with some construction details:
Dropbox - Photos - Longitudinal_Probe_V2

[t-rex]

Lamare Dialogue

It is great to find a point of discussion, the Energetic Forum has been very boring to me, like talking to my own echo. However bickering like that with Light Ship seems to be more what interests everyone, a good fight!

When considering waves on coiled windings, leave out the electrons, let us forget them once and for all. They are for electronic devices (RG) NOT for electrical devices (LC). Forget the electrons, forget it!

It is generally considered that any wave must consist of a conjugate pair of energies, magnetic and dielectric let's say. Only then an interaction between time and space is possible. As I have shown recently it is through the union of a conjugate pair (L and C) that the dimension of time is produced. The propagation constant is then equal to:

(1) Negative Gamma Square

Having a pair of imaginary roots, plus j Gamma and minus j Gamma

It is however that the JJ Thompson Longitudinal Dielectric Motions cannot have a periodic solution, there is one energy only, dielectric. This needs to be resolved.

There are four distinct forms of energy stored in a winding,
Magnetic Pair:

L, Leakage Inductance, Henry
M, Mutual Inductance, per Henry

Dielectric Pair:

C, Leakage Capacitance, Farad
K, Mutual Capacitance, per Farad

The Magnetic Distribution along the coil axis is given by

(2) Epsilon to the square root of LM power. It is an exponential curve along the axis.

The Dielectric Distribution along the coil axis is given by

(3) Epsilon to the square root of CK power. It too is an exponential curve along the axis.

LM an CK are time scalars hence it can be seen that these initial distributions at t = 0 give rise to complex energy exchanges because of the exponential space distributions. We have now a fourth order differential in space and time. Alice lands in Wonderland. Forget Maxwell, forget the Corums, dead ends, forget them once and for all!!

Break, more to follow

DE N6KPH

[OrionLightShip]

No one is interested in a fight, least of all me. I have ceased all activities which could even remotely be considered as hostile days ago and have apologized profusely.

People may be silent, Eric, but I assure you that all eyes and ears are on you.
Your efforts and those of Lamare are admired and appreciated by all on this forum.

Carry on

Orion

[lamare]

It is great to find a point of discussion, the Energetic Forum has been very boring to me, like talking to my own echo. However bickering like that with Light Ship seems to be more what interests everyone, a good fight!

When considering waves on coiled windings, leave out the electrons, let us forget them once and for all. They are for electronic devices (RG) NOT for electrical devices (LC). Forget the electrons, forget it!

Let's not go too fast with completely writing electrons of. I think electrons are a real phenomenon, but I think they have multiple distinct modes of existence. The most simple one is what we call a "particle", which in reality is a standing EM wave in the shape of a self-contained vortex structure. Something like this:

I think these are the basic shapes any simple particle takes in the ether, whereby you can have multiple vortexes forming a complex structure. Depending on the specific structure, you get a netto rotation in the ether at some distance from the particle, which means a magnetic component, or you get canceling out of all rotational components, which means a non-magnetic particle, molecule or crystal.

The electric field is a steady state flow in the ether, which occurs in the case there is a netto flow of ether trough the "pumping" vortexes. Since gravity is the gradient of the electric field, you can have mass-less and charge-less particles whenever the steady state ether flows cancel one another out.

However, these kinds of structures describe "free flowing" particles. What is interesting is to think about what a covalent binding between two atom cores would be like. I suspect you get a very thin, long vortex, "an electron", which connects two "vacant electron orbits" (in reality: vortexes trough the center of the structure) from one atom to another. Depending on the direction of rotation of the vortex you get either a positive or a negative polarity.

So, currents flowing trough a metal are not really just electrons jumping from one atom core to the next. What happens is that these connecting vortexes, trough which a steady state flow of ether is transported, are re-aligned and therefore the paths along we have steady state flows of ether trough the material are constantly re-adjusted. So, the electron jumping from one atom to the next is not a marble or something, it is more like a caterpillar with two suction feet at the end of it's body that flips trough the crystal structure of a conductor.

This re-aligning of ether pumping vortexes phenomenon in a conducting material can support the propagation of electro-magnetic waves along the surface of the conductor at pretty high speeds, like 0.95 c in the case of waves along the surface of copper tubes.

Interestingly, apparently it is also possible to get an ether flow trough a metal without this re-tubing effect, as shown by the Leedskalnin perpetual motion holder experiment:
Edward Leedskalnin's Perpetual Motion Holder

And I think in this configuration, you have a steady-state flow of ether maintaining the magnetic field, while there is no electron-based "current" flowing trough the material.

So, I think we can have tube-like vortex structures running all the way round a transformer core ("field lines") trough which a steady-state flow of ether is flowing.

I thinks it is possible to modulate this steady-state flow of ether without re-aligning the vortex structure ("electrons") in the material, which is what happens with longitudinal dielectric waves, because these propagate at speeds considerably higher than c, so re-alignment of "particles" is very unlikely, because these cannot go beyond the local speed limit c just like that.

So, to me, electrons are kind of like the plumber's tubes that can be bent in any desired form and are capable of interacting with a medium with fluid like properties in various ways. This is the mechanism by which waves in the medium itself can be created and manipulated.

[lamare]

It is generally considered that any wave must consist of a conjugate pair of energies, magnetic and dielectric let's say. Only then an interaction between time and space is possible. As I have shown recently it is through the union of a conjugate pair (L and C) that the dimension of time is produced. The propagation constant is then equal to:

(1) Negative Gamma Square

Having a pair of imaginary roots, plus j Gamma and minus j Gamma

It is however that the JJ Thompson Longitudinal Dielectric Motions cannot have a periodic solution, there is one energy only, dielectric. This needs to be resolved.

In its very essence, all electro(-magnetic) phenomena are motions in the ether, a medium with fluid-like properties in terms of it's capability of sustaining the propagation of electro(-magnetic) waves. Since transverse waves cannot propagate trough a fluid-like medium and magnetism is a rotational component in the ether, all electro-magnetic propagation must consist of some kind of space-bound dynamic flowing structure, which is some kind of wave phenomenon with a distinct frequency f. So, there is a one to one relation between all the parameters related to the phenomena, such as spatial distributed impedance and other parameters of the medium, and that frequency with has a dimension "per time".

The propagation speed of such a "transverse spatial wave structure" has a maximum of c. Whereby c is not a Universal constant, but depends on the local parameters of the medium, which depend on things like the density and temperature of the medium.

So, with all electro-magnetic phenomena, we have a maximum local propagation speed c.


Now let's suppose what I posted above is true, that you can have "steady state" ether flow, electrostatic-only waves. Phenomena that propagate at a speed of pi/2 times local c. That is too fast a speed for electro-magnetic phenomena to keep up with!

So therefore, you have wave phenomena that sees no inductance, only capacitance at its resonance frequencies. This is frequency dependent, but the frequency is such that the electro-magnetic wave with the same frequency can hardly propagate, because it does not resonate. So, you get a standing electrostatic wave, and a tiny electro magnetic wave. So, the magnetic component is suppressed significantly, which is why you can ignore the inductance for the longitudinal dielectric wave, at least in the particular situation whereby any electro-magnetic modes are out of resonance.

Of course, this phenomenon also has a coupling to time trough it's frequency, but some parameters are different. Most strikingly, its propagation speed is pi/2 times local c, which relates trough the spatially distributed capacitance to spatial dimensions.

[t-rex]

Lamare Discourse Continued

Continuing with the four energy co-efficients:

LC, this gives the space scalar frequencies of oscillation, having no distribution in space, only in time (dot product)

MK, this gives the "Tesla Vector" normal to the coil windings, a counter-velocity in per centimeters per second. (axial product)

Also,

L/K this gives the clockwise "Poynting Vector" around the circumference of the coil windings, a velocity in centimeters per second (cross product)

C/M, this gives the counter-clockwise "Poynting Vector" around the circumference of the coil windings, a velocity in centimeters per second (cross product)

(4) Hence (LC + MK(k^2)) + k(L/K - C/M)

(5) a +kb
The Heaviside relation for the dimension of space. For the condition of balance,

(6) L/K = C/M
The T.E.M. component vanishes and the "Poynting Vectors" cancel out. The resistance of the coil also cancels out giving rise to a very great magnification factor, as well as a pure longitudinal wave, a "Tesla Coil".

Forget the Corums, the Bewelly-Dollard Theory has made them obsolete. Also it is my own belief that we have outgrown Maxwell. The path started by Tesla, Through Steinmetz and Alexanderson, to L.V. Bewelly has taken us far beyond the primordial physics interpretation of J.C. Maxwell. Leyden Jars and scales have grown to giant substation transformers and high speed oscilloscopes. We are entering a brave new world of electricity, electricity without electrons.

[t-rex]

Accompanying Pictures

[t-rex]

[t-rex]

[t-rex]

[lamare]

Today, I made a new probe according to the new design:

The design:

More photos here with some construction details:
Dropbox - Photos - Longitudinal_Probe_V2



Just got word from the ham that tested my antenna, and it is looking good.



The SWR (Standing Wave Ratio) in the upper limit of the band (1299 MHz) is nearly perfect, while at the lower limit (1299 MHz) it is somewhat less, but that is logical.

So, now we have to make a waveguide to put it in.

[madhatter]

I wanted to bump this thread and see if you've made any further progress.

Also I was doing a bit more research and reading through Heaviside late last night I came across an interesting note, "Electrical notes Volume 3 Page 89"

"There are several cautions to be expressed regarding the
above. First the investigation has no reference to ordinary
waves along wires. They do not behave in the above way, even
if all resistance were done away with. The above waves are
forced waves, whether u be less or greater than v, although
only in the latter case is there permanent activity on the
average. If we want to represent waves of this type along
a wire, we require a continuous distribution of impressed
electric force along the wire, or something equivalent. That
is, the wire is to be a source of energy, instead of a sink, as
is usually the case with waves along them, for the loss of
energy by radiation of the heat is a separate matter, which
does not come in question."

in this same volume of papers Heaviside also talks about that induction can be absent when there is an infinite in length in the plane, then there is no way for it to terminate and thus it can not develop. Given how k is transverse to C if the wave of k is moving faster than v then the field would not have a termination point and induction would be absent from the coil.

I'm grossly simplifying here as I need to connect the dots with more formalism. However based on a number of things posted and read I see this,

the geometry of the secondary with it's inter-turn spaced wires is specificaly done to remove coil induction and enhance the k factor so that the transverse longitudinal wave will emerge, the primary coil being of coax could be considered the 'tickler' it's function is to get the secondary coil to be the source of energy and not mutually inductive to the primary, the extra coil is other node point for the wave and this increases the tension needed to keep the secondary as the source.

now this brings up the point of one of Erics earlier posts in reference to the geometry of the antennae, the single wire is not going to have the ability to generate the wave, I'll do my best to dig up the relevant Eq from Heaviside to try and support my comment.

Heaviside; Volume 3 page 30:
chapter 9
paragraph 465
The steady Rectilinear Motion in its own line of a Terminated
Electrified Line when u>v, and interpretation of the
Impure Conical Wave following an Electron.

Now if I'm wrong or off in anyway, Eric please point this out.