Who performs the first longitudinal Moon-Bounce in history?

[lamare]

Started reading Dollards book in the train home.

WOW!

Really groundbreaking stuff! What he does is basically re-invent complex mathematics, but he takes it a giant leap further than that. I still can't get my head around it completely, but from what I understand now, I'm sure this is going to be the electrical engineering model of the 21sth century. Yes, it is THAT groundbreaking.

Anyway, I wanted to talk about this:
Tuks DrippingPedia : Sbarc Lecture

As wireless progressed, Tesla established the system where he could transmit [electrical power] longitudinally through the earth at a velocity of 291,000 mi./s. Also he developed a beam tube […] In the beam, Tesla found that he could transmit direct current energy over incredible distances, and this energy not diverging out of the beam, much tighter, more compact than any laser ever built.

Remember Dollard talking about the dielectric and the magnetic fields being opposites? One contracting, one expanding....

The magnetic component is a rotation in the ether. In order to make a beam, you need a ..... contracting force, a vortex.

So, what you need to do is to create a rotating surface wave across your sphere/coil. This way, you create a vortex going trough the centre of your sphere/coil, perpendicular to the rotational movement of the wave. This vortex expands into space, which is one and the same phenomenon we know as lightning. A very compact magnetic tube, a very compact vortex basically transporting DC magnetic energy. A steady-state rotating flow in the ether, which I think is also what binds atoms together. The "electrons" are stretched between the atoms such that they become vortex tubes, along which energy is transported between the atom nuclei in a crystal or molecule, which result in an attracting force between the atom nuclei.

The question is: how to create such a beam?

We don't know any more than that Tesla developed a beam tube. Did this consist of a sphere? If yes, then I would say he would have had his feed 90 degrees turned when compared to what he normally did. In other words, he would have fed his sphere along the surface of the sphere and not perpendicular to it. The wavelength he would have fed into the sphere would have to be 2 * pi * r in order to create a surface wave.

Another possibility would be to use a short-cutted coil, and feed that with one wire to put it into resonance, also creating a rotating surface wave around the coil, which would create a magnetic vortex stretching out into space.

If I had to make a bet right now, I would bet for the coil option, given what I wrote here:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...is-motors.html

With that in mind, we can find Gray's actual secret, the production of extreme pulses of magnetic foce using a negatice resistance device, in Eric Dollard's "Condensed Intro to Tesla Coils":

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_...Coils(OCR).pdf

The formation of the energy impulse involves the discharge of a capacitor with the highest practical stored energy into an impedance (inductive) of the lowest practical value, and the discharge path is coupled to an energy supply through a negative resistance device. This negative resistance is classically a spark discharge, but a superior plasma device needs to be developed to enhance efficiency. Under optimal conditions the exponent of oscillation amplitude will be positive over a sustained period of time.
The net result of this system is the production of an extreme impulse of M.M.F. (magnetic force).

What makes a negative resistance device so interesting for steering coils into resonance for applications in magnetic motors is that the current trough a practical negative resistance device, like a spark gap or lambda diode, is always positive!

So, if you can make an extremely strong magnetic field using an extreme inpulse traveling around your coil, I figure you can als make a magnetic field using an alternating wave traveling around your coil. And when you manage to get the coil into resonance, while the wave travels in one direction, you should be in business....

The bottomline is that you need a contracting force to get a beam, which would be a magnetic force and NOT a dielectric one...

[lamare]

What I am elluding to is can this be done essentially with one unit?

First acting in a transmit mode then acting in a receive mode.

I figure you are talking about the moon-bounce exercise here?

That depends on how much you want to say. Since the return time is about 1.6 seconds, you can speak for about 1 second before you release the "TX" button, after which you have about 0.6 seconds to bite your nails...

[lamare]

My understanding was that the tesla transmitter transmitted no energy without an active resonating receiver to receive the energy?

If it should require 2 resonators and another is set up on the ground, it will short cut and jump to the one on the ground bypassing the moon.

That and another thing Eric was not clear on is when he said it travelled at 292 through the ground. I dont think he ever said it traveled through the air at that speed. Maybe I am being overly nit picky?

As I said before, my experiment is very different from what Tesla did with his TMT transmitter. With that one, the spheres are supposed to act as capacitors, while the action happens at the other terminal, either the "Earth" or the wire in his "one wire transmission" system, which is essentially the same thing.

Of course, the spheres also emit longitudinal waves, but in Tesla's system these are losses, while in my system I want to use these waves, so I focus them with a big dish.

The purpose of Tesla's system is to transmit power across the globe, while the purpose of my system is to transmit a signal back and forth between the Earth and the Moon. In an analogy: Tesla wanted to create enough wind power to turn all the windmills across the globe, while I just want to shout into a deep well to listen to the echo....

I know that most of the energy I transmit gets wasted into space. All I want to achieve is that a tiny part of the energy I send out returns to my antenna. I don't need to be able to light a light bulb from the return signal, I just want to "hear" the echo.

All I need is just enough energy to be returned to the antenna to be able to detect the signal. That's it.

[Kokomoj0]

Started reading Dollards book in the train home.

WOW!

Really groundbreaking stuff! What he does is basically re-invent complex mathematics, but he takes it a giant leap further than that. I still can't get my head around it completely, but from what I understand now, I'm sure this is going to be the electrical engineering model of the 21sth century. Yes, it is THAT groundbreaking.

yes that is what I have been doing as well, but unfortunately right now I am swamped so I have not been able to devote a lot of time to it right now. Maybe only 5 pages in so far, but I will keep pecking away at it

[Kokomoj0]

As I said before, my experiment is very different from what Tesla did with his TMT transmitter. With that one, the spheres are supposed to act as capacitors, while the action happens at the other terminal, either the "Earth" or the wire in his "one wire transmission" system, which is essentially the same thing.

Of course, the spheres also emit longitudinal waves, but in Tesla's system these are losses, while in my system I want to use these waves, so I focus them with a big dish.

The purpose of Tesla's system is to transmit power across the globe, while the purpose of my system is to transmit a signal back and forth between the Earth and the Moon. In an analogy: Tesla wanted to create enough wind power to turn all the windmills across the globe, while I just want to shout into a deep well to listen to the echo....

I know that most of the energy I transmit gets wasted into space. All I want to achieve is that a tiny part of the energy I send out returns to my antenna. I don't need to be able to light a light bulb from the return signal, I just want to "hear" the echo.

All I need is just enough energy to be returned to the antenna to be able to detect the signal. That's it.

just the magnetic portion would get lost in space, the longitudinal portion should be nearly as strong as your source.

I realize what you are trying to accomplish just pointing out certain concerns about things that are unknown at least to me, like can this be done with just one unit (sphere) and can simply firing a burst signal into a spherical antenna produce the desired result of a longitudinal wave or will it be transverse.

I have not been able to verify that anywhere and it just seems to me we need to know that before moving forward with the expense of a dish setup.

[Kokomoj0]

ok someone posted this I do not remember who, but I do not see that they have or claimed to have established a ground connection between Tx and Rx, which according to tesla is where the 292mps speed


Europhys. Lett., 59 (4), pp. 514–520 (2002)

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS 15 August 2002

Observation of scalar longitudinal electrodynamic waves
C. Monstein1 and J. P. Wesley2
1 ETHZ, Institute of Astronomy - Scheuchzerstrasse 7, CH-8092 Z¨urich, Switzerland
2 Weiherdammstrasse 24, D-78176 Blumberg, Germany
(received 18 February 2002; accepted in final form 14 May 2002)
PACS. 41.20.-q – Applied classical electromagnetism.
PACS. 41.20.Jb – Electromagnetic wave propagation; radiowave propagation.


If they do not have the units correctly grounded for their tests then I dont see this test as valid in as much as non-em longitudinal as tesla claimed.

[lamare]

ok someone posted this I do not remember who, but I do not see that they have or claimed to have established a ground connection between Tx and Rx, which according to tesla is where the 292mps speed


Europhys. Lett., 59 (4), pp. 514–520 (2002)

EUROPHYSICS LETTERS 15 August 2002

Observation of scalar longitudinal electrodynamic waves
C. Monstein1 and J. P. Wesley2
1 ETHZ, Institute of Astronomy - Scheuchzerstrasse 7, CH-8092 Z¨urich, Switzerland
2 Weiherdammstrasse 24, D-78176 Blumberg, Germany
(received 18 February 2002; accepted in final form 14 May 2002)
PACS. 41.20.-q – Applied classical electromagnetism.
PACS. 41.20.Jb – Electromagnetic wave propagation; radiowave propagation.


If they do not have the units correctly grounded for their tests then I dont see this test as valid in as much as non-em longitudinal as tesla claimed.

I posted that article in my very first post in this thread:

So, I went looking for some information on how to do this in practice, and it seems that all you need to be able to transmit and/or recieve longitudinal waves is spherical antenna:

Monstein, Wesley - Observation of scalar longitudinal electrodynamic waves(2002).pdf

Mathematically a spherically symmetric source can generate only scalar waves; so the ball antenna can only generate a Φ-wave, and, thus, only a longitudinal electrodynamic E -wave. The spherically symmetric current density J within the ball, that gives rise to the pulsating surface charge source, is divergenceless, ∇ · J = 0; so ∇ · A = 0 and ∇× A = 0; and no transverse wave can arise. The ball antenna as a receiver detects the net charge induced by the component of the incident E field normal to the front surface; so only longitudinal E-waves can be detected.

This is the sketch of the aluminium ball antennas from the pdf:

And you are right, they did not use the ground wire/mantle as wave guide in their system as Tesla did. So, this is very close to what I'm aiming for.

The mantle of their coax cable was even floating which means the mantle may (also) have been emitting transversal waves, so unfortunately it is easily claimed that you can't draw definite conclusions out of this experiment. However, their observations with their "polarizer-analyser" are very encouraging. Page 4:

Since transverse electrodynamic waves with the E vector perpendicular to both the wires and to the direction of propagation would pass unhampered through the polarizer-analyzer, the observed absorption of the signal for φ = 0 is clear evidence that a longitudinal wave is involved and not a transverse wave. This then demonstrates that longitudinal electrodynamic waves can, and do, exist.

So, my antenna is basically the same as theirs, only with a second concentric sphere and a balun/feedline, so you do no longer have the floating mantle problem and you can transmit much more power with it because of the proper impedance matching with the balun/feedline.

[lamare]

New drawing of dipole

Hi all,

I made a new drawing of the lamare longitudinal dipole antenna, with dimensions for 1296 MHz:

Updated spreadsheet with my calculations:
http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/Lamare_dipole_calc.xls

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Aluminum and copper can be soldered together:

solder-aluminium

Aluminium antenna designs are often limited by the difficulty of performing a metal joining operation where the RF impedance is low, for example at the centre junction of groundplane antenna or at the centre of a dipole element. There then follows the very real difficulty in terminating the copper coaxial conductors onto an aluminium driven element. Those with experience know too well the corrosive effect of two dissimilar metals exposed to weather. The feed point impedance of a driven element in a multi element yagi array is of the order of five ohms or less and I suspect that many of my failed antennas were merely defective only at this feedpoint.

For RF conductivity, the only true options are all copper elements permitting well soldered , low impedance joints; at the cost of heavy weight and monetary cost. My most successfull yagi antennas all had copper driven elements. If only it were possible to make a true metalurgical bond to aluminium at moderate temperature that would be compatible with copper.

It is possible, sometimes, and with exotic alloy solders and exotic fluxes. Aluminium soldering is nothing new, however, manufactures keep their methods to themselves and makers of the solders will not release usage notes. Here I present a highly reproducible method that a competent Radio Ham can replicate using only a simple and inexpensive propane gas torch.


The method requires the use of a now commonly sold aluminium brazing rod. This rod is made under the trade name Alumalloy and sold in the United States under the name Durafix. It , I believe, is a ternary alloy made from aluminium, copper and magnesium with a melting point of 430 degrees C. It has been available under various trade names in Australia for a number of years, it is known here in Oz as " aluminium rubbing solder". There is absolutely no application information published about it. (conspiracy theories welcomed here!) I have recently learned how to apply this remarkable alloy to make aluminium to aluminium brazed joints, after watching some Youtube videos. Search Youtube for the term "Alumalloy" and see for yourself. I have used it with success to make some antenna elements with it. Only the next step remained....bonding copper conductors to my aluminium antenna elements.

[...]

The technique.

The Alumalloy braze melts at about 430 degress C, pure Al and its common alloys at about 700 degress. 400 degrees is well within the power of a propane torch, but utterly beyond the upper range of a soldering iron.

Heat the base metal from below. Touch the brazing rod to the base metal. Do not heat the brazing rod directly with the torch...it will just melt and oxidise.
When the metal is at the right temperature the braze will begin to melt. As it melts rub the base metal with the rod. This breaches the oxide monolayer and permits an instant metal-metal bond to form under the molten surface. The Oxide monolayer is unstable on the brazed surface and liquid braze will literally burrow underneath it. Rub the molten braze bead with a stainless steel knife and "tin" the surface of the base metal. The purpose of rubbing with the steel blade is to breach large areas of the oxide layer under the braze melt. Continous heating is required while you are doing this. The initial bead of molten braze will not wet the Alumium surface untill that surface is scratched UNDER the bead. The molten bead temporarily excludes atmospheric oxygen and only then will it bond with the base metal.

Wipe the layer of oxidised dross with the knife blade away from the brazed surface and allow to cool. Reheat from below. Apply conventional 60/40 lead-tin resin fluxed solder to the brazed surface and do not overheat or permit the resin flux to burn. A perfectly formed solder bead will form ! Allow a large bead to form on the surface and cool. Your copper conducter can now be reflow soldered to this surface. At this point a very heavy 100W iron may have enough power , gas is better because of the very high thermal conductivity of Aluminum metal. A perfect copper to aluminum solder bond is thus made.

The base metal should be prepared by filing to bare metal with a very fine bastard file to produce the smoothest surface possible. Polish with a FINE wire brush, a suede fabric brush is what is really needed here. If the surface has been anodised, this must be completely abraded away to bare metal.

[Web000x]

Lamare,

I just got off of the phone with Eric. I asked him about your proposal for using a dish structure for propagating a longitudinal wave towards the moon. He told me that longitudinal waves generally don't need the structure of a dish to begin to propagate. He said that you could possibly use such a structure but would need to see the schematics of the setup to help direct you. If you want to compile a schematic and send it to his Lone Pine address, he would be more than willing to direct you.

Dave

[lamare]

Lamare,

I just got off of the phone with Eric. I asked him about your proposal for using a dish structure for propagating a longitudinal wave towards the moon. He told me that longitudinal waves generally don't need the structure of a dish to begin to propagate. He said that you could possibly use such a structure but would need to see the schematics of the setup to help direct you. If you want to compile a schematic and send it to his Lone Pine address, he would be more than willing to direct you.

Dave

Already mailed him the contents of this thread last thursday. Shoule be in LP within 4-9 working days, which would be between the 16th and 23d of november...

Would be nice if I could get a reply before november 26th if I want to keep my schedule aiming for december 21st, the shortest day of the year for publicity reasons. So, hopefully it arrives nicely at the 16th...

[lamare]

Filling in the ? mark...

First, let's get back the picture of my design:

So far, I regarded the question mark as "don't care". Oops.

Let's first take a look at the small sphere. It has a radius of 1/4 lambda longitudinal, which means it has a circumference of 2 * pi times 1/4 lambda longitudinal. Since transverse waves travel at a speed pi/2 times as slow, we have to divide by pi/2 to get the circumference in terms of the corresponding transverse wave, which gives us: ( 2 * pi * 1/4 lambda) / (pi/2) = (2 * 1/4)/(1/2) lambda = 1 lambda.

Oops. I first made a little calculation error. The circumference of a circle is 2 * pi * r, not pi * r.

So, we get the situation that our transversal component has a resonance across the circumference of the sphere. while the longitudinal component resonates perpendicular with respect to the surface of the sphere.

However, since we feed the sphere from a point at the surface, you have just as much waves going "left" as waves going "right", so with a sphere the transverse (magnetic) components nicely cancel each other out at all times, regardless of resonance or not. (Is this true??)

Anyway, with the big "wok" sphere we have to choose our question mark such that we establish the same thing, transverse resonance as well, OR we choose to supress the transverse component over there.

Since in that case we don't have a closed circle, but an open end, we have to account for that. As our antenna behaves as an open cylinder, because it is fed from a voltage node in our feed-line, we get (voltage) resonances at every odd multiple of 1/2 lambda:

Acoustic resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Open cylindrical tubes resonate at the approximate frequencies

f = (nv / 2L)

where n is a positive integer (1, 2, 3...)

Now with a half-sphere fed from a the central point as shown in the picture, you basically have an infinite array of (multiples of) half-wave antenna's arranged in a circle. So, in a "bowl" shaped partial half-sphere, you get an infinite set of half wave "antenna's" arranged in a circle.

Because we feed our half wave antenna from a voltage node in our feed line (basically high voltage, low current), we get our current hot spots about at 1/4 lamda away from our feed point, so we get a circular current "hot spot".

Since the outer sphere has a circumference of 3 lambda, we can take either 1/3 or 2/3ds and we get it in the same kind of resonance mode as our inner sphere.

I'm still puzzling about whether or not the transverse component is effectively canceled out in such a (partial) sphere arrangement. Yes, you have waves going in opposite directions, but they are also at a certain distance in space with respect to one another.

Something to think about further.

[lamare]

Man, is this hard to get straight!

Longitudinal waves have a higher propagation speed and therefore a longer wavelength than transverse waves.

So, in a given length or circumference, more transversal wavelengths fit in the same distance compared to longitudinal wavelengths.

Therefore, my calculation should have been:

The small sphere has a radius of 1/4 lambda longitudinal, which means it has a circumference of 2 * pi times 1/4 lambda longitudinal. Since transverse waves travel at a speed pi/2 times as slow, we have to multiply by pi/2 to get the circumference in terms of the corresponding transverse wavelength, which gives us: ( 2 * pi * 1/4 lambda) * (pi/2) = pi^2 * 1/4 lambda = 2,4674 or just about 2 1/2 lambda....

All right, so the circumference of the outer sphere is very close to 2 1/2 lambda transversal, so it is very close to a transverse resonance frequency, but there's a phase difference of 180 degrees between the transmitted and returned wave, so we do get an almost canceling out of the transverse waves after all....

And since we have 5/2 lambda in a whole circle/sphere, we should take 1,2,3,4 or 5 fifth of a whole sphere for our outer sphere to get a cancelling-out transverse resonance.

Right?

Update:

Compare this to the resonant circular loop antenna:
Loop antenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The large or self-resonant loop antenna can be seen as a folded dipole which has been reformed into a circle (or square, etc.). This loop has a circumference approximately equal to one wavelength (however it will also be resonant at odd multiples of a wavelength). Compared to the dipole or folded dipole, it transmits less toward the sky or ground, giving it a somewhat higher gain (about 10% higher) in the horizontal direction.

Contrary to the small loop antenna, this design radiates in the direction normal to the plane of the loop (thus in two opposite directions). Therefore these loops are normally installed with the plane of the loop in the vertical direction, and may be rotatable. Further directionality can be obtained by using a loop whose circumference is not one but 3 or 5 wavelengths.

So, when we take multiples of a whole wavelength, we get a transversal resonance mode that does not cancel out, while if we take odd multiples of a halve wave, we get a transversal resonance mode that does cancel out.

Since 1/5 of the total circumference equals 1/2 lambda in transverse mode, we should take 1, 3 or 5/5th for our outer sphere in order to suppress the transversal junk we don't want...

Update 2:

As I said, it is hard to get this all straigt out.

Since the circumference of the small sphere is about 5/2 lambda and the outer sphere is 3 times as big, we get 3 times 2 1/2 = 7 1/2 or 15/2 lambda across the circumference of the large sphere.

So, one fifteenth of the big sphere equals 1/2 transverse lambda. Fortunately, three times this number, 3/15th or 1/5th, gets us 1 1/2 lambda, which is what I calculated with....

So, we have some more choices for our outer sphere, but 1/5th should be fine.

[lamare]

New design

Based on the above posts, we now have a new design, version 3:

High res version: http://www.tuks.nl/img/Lamare_Longit...ole_v3_big.jpg

[lamare]

Design v4 and v5....

Based on the last update in the above post explaining we can choose any odd multiple of 1/15th of the circumference of the big sphere, we can also opt for 5/15th, which would be 1/3d.

Therefore version 4 of the design:
http://www.tuks.nl/img/Lamare_Longit..._dipole_v4.jpg

Grrrrr.

How much is 360 divided by 3??

Right, 120...



Yep, that's another number than 90....

So, back to the drawing board....


Update: Here's version 5:

With a high-res version for printing, etc:
http://www.tuks.nl/img/Lamare_Longit...ole_v5_big.jpg

Update 2:

I have done some calculations on the surface area of these so called "spherical caps", which you can find in my spreadsheet:
http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/Lamare_dipole_calc.xls

It turns out that a cap for 1/5th has a surface area of about 86% of the surface of the small sphere, while a 1/3 cap will give avout 225% of the surface of the small sphere.

So, I think we'll go for version 3. Easier to make, and more in balance with respect to surface area's (== self capacitance and/or charge density):
http://www.tuks.nl/img/Lamare_Longit..._dipole_v3.jpg
High res version:
http://www.tuks.nl/img/Lamare_Longit...ole_v3_big.jpg

And that's it for today...

[lamare]

Back to the drawing board. Again.....

I finally found some formula that describe surface resonances occuring on an ideal sphere. We all know them. Schumann resonances:
Schumann resonances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basic theory

Lightning discharges are considered to be the primary natural source of Schumann resonance excitation; lightning channels behave like huge antennas that radiate electromagnetic energy at frequencies below about 100 kHz.[20] These signals are very weak at large distances from the lightning source, but the Earth–ionosphere waveguide behaves like a resonator at ELF frequencies and amplifies the spectral signals from lightning at the resonance frequencies.[20]

In an ideal cavity, the resonant frequency of the n-th mode fn is determined by the Earth radius a and the speed of light c.[11]

f_n= c/(2*pi*a) * sqrt(n(n+1))

The real Earth–ionosphere waveguide is not a perfect electromagnetic resonant cavity. Losses due to finite ionosphere electrical conductivity lower the propagation speed of electromagnetic signals in the cavity, resulting in a resonance frequency that is lower than would be expected in an ideal case, and the observed peaks are wide. In addition, there are a number of horizontal asymmetries – day-night difference in the height of the ionosphere, latitudinal changes in the Earth magnetic field, sudden ionospheric disturbances, polar cap absorption, etc. that produce other effects in the Schumann resonance power spectra.

So, I entered this formula in my spreadsheet:
http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/Lamare_dipole_calc.xls

Turns out that when I calculate with a velocity factor of 0,91, the formula for the small sphere *exactly* matches the Schuman resonance mode 2 for a frequency of 1286 MHz (which rolls out independent of the chosen velocity factor because the radius of the small sphere depends on the velocity factor, btw), while I am designing the antenna for 1296 MHz.

I also found some further references on Schumann resonance:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...nce%20Data.pdf
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...20Research.pdf
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...resonances.pdf

So, it looks like we need to account for this Schumann resonance effect, one way or the other...

Some quick investigation suggests we may have to double the radius of the small sphere in order to avoid transverse Schuman resonance.