Who performs the first longitudinal Moon-Bounce in history?

[Kokomoj0]

So, we get the situation that our transversal component has a resonance across the circumference of the sphere. while the longitudinal component resonates perpendicular with respect to the surface of the sphere.

However, since we feed the sphere from a point at the surface, you have just as much waves going "left" as waves going "right", so with a sphere the transverse (magnetic) components nicely cancel each other out at all times, regardless of resonance or not. (Is this true??)

Anyway, with the big "wok" sphere we have to choose our question mark such that we establish the same thing, transverse resonance as well, OR we choose to supress the transverse component over there.

I'm still puzzling about whether or not the transverse component is effectively canceled out in such a (partial) sphere arrangement. Yes, you have waves going in opposite directions, but they are also at a certain distance in space with respect to one another.

Something to think about further.

I think that you will still get TW's at some harmonic because you are technically feeding a coil (well sorta.....due to skin effect) between the balun and the sphere.

I am thinking that the only way you can avoid that is to center feed the sphere and terminate your transmission line centrally or directly on the surface of the sphere? By that I am thinking terminate your (transmission line) balun on the surface of sphere?

I believe your objective is to have anything that comes out of the transmitter to exit strictly by means of the sphere.

.

[lamare]

Longitudinal speed is NOT pi/2 times c....

As I posted, I found out that the transverse surface wave across the sphere can be expressed with the theoretical formula for Schumann resonance:

Schumann resonances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

f_n= c/(2*pi*r) * sqrt(n(n+1))

I calculated the diameter for a 1/2 lambda sphere using Dollard's formula that the speed of longitudinal waves is pi/2 times c, but then the corresponding Schumann resonance frequency turned out to be 1287 MHz, which should be 1296 MHz if Eric's formula is correct.

So, I compared the Schumann formula with the formula for resonance in a string, basically a 1/2 lambda resonance with closed ends:

f_n = (n * c_l)/ 2L

Since L = 2r, we can now calculate the theoretical speed c_l. When we take n=1 in the string formula and n=2 in the Schumann formula, we end up with matching resonance frequencies.

Since n(n +1) equals 6 for n=2, we get:

c_l / (4 * r) = c_t / (2 * pi * r) * sqrt(6)

This works out to:

c_l = 2/pi * sqrt(6) * c_t

This computes to 1,559393604, while pi/2 computes to 1,570796325, a difference of 0,7%.....

So, now we have a theoretical derivation for the longitudinal wave speed, which turns out to be just a tiny bit lower than Eric's pi/2...

[lamare]

I made a new version of my spreadsheet:
http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/lamare_dipole_calc_v2.xls

Also received some info from Eric trough the yahoo group:

Eric suggested more authors to study. He said look up the work of Helmholtz, "Sensations of Tone" (This seems to give insight into Eric's understanding of the music/electric relation) and that Helmholtz gave the equations for longitudinal transmission. Also Tesla liked Helmholtz. He also said to study everything by J.J. Thomson, especially "Experimental Researches into Electricity and Magnetism" (The only thing that I could find was "Elements of the mathematical theory of electricity and magnetism", maybe this is what he meant?).

I added Helmholtz' book to my list of references:
Tuks DrippingPedia : Links And References

The formula for describing a Helmholtz resonator, which is of course what my sphere with wip can be considered to be, can be found at WikiPedia:
Helmholtz resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or, in plain text: f_h = v/(2*pi) * sqrt ( A/(V_0 * L) )

With:
v - propagation speed
A - the cross-sectional area of the neck
V_0 - the static volume of the cavity
L - the length of the neck

There is also an interesting article on Helmholtz acoustic resonators here:

Helmholtz Resonant Absorber — Reviews and News from Audioholics
http://home.comcast.net/~wirebendera...20Absorber.doc

The Helmholtz resonator is a narrow-bandwidth device, designed and used to target specific single frequency anomalies. The margin for design or constructional error, therefore, is minimal. One area often overlooked is that of port end-correction, without which a design may be rendered ineffective. Basically speaking, the air immediately outside either end of the port acts in sympathy with the design air mass in the port. This has the effect of increasing the apparent length of the port (fig1), and hence affects the tuning frequency of the resonator.

The spreadsheet link in the article is dead, but I managed to grap a copy from archive.org:
http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/modecalc.xls

So, a Helmholtz resonator has a narrow bandwidth, but it can be tuned by varying the length of "the neck"...


So, next thing I will do is to add these formulas to my spreadsheet and see where that gets me. As far as I can tell now, the neck should be considered to be the part of the whip without the balun, because we are working with a closed pipe (the balun part) and the Helmholtz equations assume an open pipe...


Also see:
Engineering Acoustics/Noise control with self-tuning Helmholtz resonators - Wikibooks, open books for an open world
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...microwaves.pdf
woofertester.com

[OrionLightShip]

Lamare, you and Raui make available a large collection of reference material and it is very much appreciated!

[lamare]

New antenna design: the longitudinal "cantenna"

Yesterday, I studied some information on wave guides and I found out that the transverse wave propagation modes trough a hollow tube are only possible with a minimum diameter of 0.59 λ:

http://www.w1ghz.org/QEX/circular_wg.pdf

In order for the waves to travel with low loss, the pipe dimensions must be large enough for the lowest-order waveguide mode, the TE 11 mode, to propagate. In circular waveguide, the cutoff wavelength for this mode is 1.706×D (diameter) so the minimum waveguide diameter is 1/1.706, or 0.59 λ. The diameter of the copper water pipe I used is nominally 3/ 4-inch, type M, which has a larger inner diameter than other types. The typical inner diameter is 0.81 inches, but that may vary slightly because this is not precision tubing. Thus, the cutoff wavelength is 1.38 inches, so the minimum frequency is 8.55 GHz. Clearly, 10 GHz is comfortably above the minimum.

Moving in the other direction, a large waveguide diameter would permit additional higher-order waveguide modes to propagate. While the additional modes also propagate with low loss, they often arrive at the far end with different phase, so that they interfere with the TE11 wave and we are unable to extract them without losses. The next mode, TM 01, needs a minimum diameter of 0.76 λ to propagate, setting the maximum operating frequency without any additional modes. For the 3/4-inch pipe, this upper frequency limit is 11.08 GHz, but it isn’t a hard limit like the lower cut-off frequency.

On the same site, you can find an interesting "Online Microwave Antenna Book": Table of Contents - W1GHZ Microwave Antenna Book ONLINE

This chapter describes the so-called "coffee-can" or "cantenna" feeds:
http://www.w1ghz.org/antbook/chap6-3.pdf

These are very simple to make:
How to build a tin can waveguide antenna
Wlan waveguide antenni

And are ideal for feeding satellite dishes:
Use a Surplus Primestar Dish as an IEEE 802.11 Wireless Networking Antenna

Being an expert on longitudinal acoustic resonance ( http://www.tuks.nl/img/Arend_ossenhoorn_klein.jpg ), I figured that it must be possible to make the same kind of cantenna for longitudinal use.

After some thinking, I came up with this:

(High res version here: http://www.tuks.nl/img/Lamare_Longit...ntenna_big.jpg )

The idea is to place a 1/4 λ whip antenna at the bottom of the can, and load that with a circular disc, which would be a flat radiator, comparable to the conus of a speaker. The disc adds some extra "length" to the whip, so the whip will will have to be shorter than actually 1/4 λ. A first guess may be something like 1/4 λ minus the radius of the disc radiator. However, the disc also adds a capacitative load to the 1/4 λ resonator, so the whip will have to be a bit more shortened. How much will have to be experimentally established.

The length of the tube should be a little less than 3/4 λ, just as with an open cylindrical acoustic tube, which is very comparable to the longitudinal dielectric antenna we are talking about:

Acoustic resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Open cylindrical tubes resonate at the approximate frequencies

where n is a positive integer (1, 2, 3...) representing the resonance node, L is the length of the tube and v is the speed of sound in air (which is approximately 343 meters per second at 20 °C and at sea level).

All right, that was the easy part. Now how big should the diameter of the tube be?

As I wrote above, the minimal diameter for transverse use is about 0.59 λ. And since we don't want any transversal junk in our longitudinal antenna, it is clear that this limit is our maximum diameter! However, this is expressed in terms of the transverse wavelength, so in terms of longitudinal wavelenghts the diameter of the tube should be maximal 0.59/1.56 = 0.38 λ (note that in the drawing I took the "popular" 0.67/1.56 = 0.43 λ as maximum, which should be 0.59 λ transverse). For 1296 Mhz, this works out to a maximum diameter of about 12.5 cm.

Now the diameter of the disc. A hard upper limit for that one is 1/4 λ transverse, because the last thing we want is our disc to radiate transversal junk from a resonating radiator. So, the diameter of the disc should be signficantly smaller than 5.4 cm on 1296 Mhz.

If we assume the radius of the disc, together with the length of the whip, should be about 1/4 λ longitudinal, a radius of about 1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16 λ longitudinal may be a good first guess, which works out to a radius of about 2.1 cm (or a diameter of 4.2 cm, of course). A coin, like 5 Euro cents, may be perfect for this kind of duty...

Update: Further ideas for optimizing this design can be found in the theories about acoustic wave guides, like for example:
Practical DIY Waveguides - Part 1

[lamare]

Someone mailed me this question:

Since it cannot be shielded by metal or even dielectric material, why do you think you can feed a dish with a spherical termination and reflect it, concentrated, to the moon? Why do you think it will be reflected by the moon? Two big problems to my thinking.

I believe the statement that longitudinal waves cannot be shielded is a myth, which appears to have originated by Meyl. He used two TMTs to transmit energy "into a Faraday cage", but a TMT transmits its power from transmitter to reciever by means of a wave guide, either the earth or a ground wire. So, the guiding "ground wire" nicely guides your "scalar wave" into the Faraday cage.

Also see this post: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post165383

Tesla also talked about unshieldable waves, but these were IMPULSES, not nice harmonic waves:

Nikola Tesla - The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla - The Man who invented the 20th Century
"Broadcast Power" - Nikola Tesla

Instantaneous applications of high current and high voltage could literally convert thin wires into vapor. Charged to high direct current potentials, his capacitors were allowed to discharge across a section of thin wire. Tesla configured his test apparatus to eliminate all possible current alternations. The application of a single switch contact would here produce a single, explosive electrical surge: a direct current impulse resembling lightning.

[...]

Placing a large glass plate between himself and the exploding wire, he performed the test again. Bang! The wire again turned to vapor...but the pressured stinging effect was still felt. But, what was this? How were these stinging effects able to penetrate the glass plate? Now he was not sure whether he was experiencing a pressure effect or an electrical one. The glass would have screened any mechanical shrapnel, but would not appreciably shield any electrical effects.

Through careful isolation of each experimental component, Tesla gradually realized that he was observing a very rare electrical phenomenon. Each "bang" produced the same unexpected shock response in Tesla, while exploding small wire sections into vapor. The instantaneous burst produced strange effects never observed with alternating currents. The painful shocking sensation appeared each time he closed or opened the switch. These sudden shock currents were IMPULSES, not alternations. What surprised him was the fact that these needle-like shocks were able to reach him from a distance: he was standing almost ten feet from the discharge site!

[...]

The secret lay principally in the direct current application in a small time interval. Tesla studied this time increment, believing that it might be possible to eliminate the pain field by shortening the length of time during which the switch contact is made. In a daring series of experiments, he developed rapid mechanical rotary switches, which handled very high direct voltage potentials. Each contact lasted an average of one ten-thousandth second.

Exposing himself to such impulses of very low power, he discovered to his joy and amazement that the pain field was nearly absent. In its place was a strange pressure effect, which could be felt right through the copper barriers. Increasing the power levels of this device produced no pain increase, but did produce an intriguing increased pressure field. The result of simple interrupted high voltage DC, the phenomenon was never before reported except by witnesses of close lightning strokes. This was erroneously attributed however to pressure effects in air.

[...]

Analysis of this situation proved that electrical energy or electrically productive energies were being projected from the impulse device as rays, not waves. Tesla was amazed to find these rays absolutely longitudinal in their action through space, describing them in a patent as "light-like rays". These observations conformed with theoretical expectations described in 1854 by Kelvin.

In another article Tesla calls them "dark-rays", and "rays which are more light-like in character". The rays neither diminished with the inverse square of the distance nor the inverse of the distance from their source. They seemed to stretch out in a progressive shock-shell to great distances without any apparent loss.

Eric also makes clear distinction between 4 types of waves in his "Symbolic Representation of the Generalized Electric Wave", one of them being "impulses". ( http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_...%20Dollard.pdf)

Tesla also wrote a lot about various "rays", which appear to connect to these impulses and to electric phenomena as well:

Nikola Tesla : Nikola Tesla Plans to Keep "Wireless Thumb" on Ships at Sea

As far back as 1897, I disclosed before the New York Academy of Sciences the discovery that Roentgen, or X-rays, projected from certain bulbs have the property of strongly charging an electrical condenser at a distance.

Googling for "rays site:rastko.rs" gives more info on this, like:

Nikola Tesla : Radio Power Will Revolutionize the World

I have disintegrated atoms in my experiments with a high potential vacuum tube I brought out in 1896 which I consider one of my best inventions. I have operated it with pressures ranging from 4.000.000 to 18.000.000 volts. More recently I have designed an apparatus for 50.000.000 volts which should produce many results of great scientific importance.

But as to atomic energy, my experimental observations have shown that the process of disintegration is not accomtpained by a liberation of such energy as might be expected from the present theories.

And as for the cosmic ray: I called attention to this radiation while investigating Roentgen rays and radioactivity. In 1899 I erected a broadcasting plant at Colorado Springs, the first and only wireless plant in existence at that time, and there confirmed my theory by actual observation, My findings are in disagreement with the theories more recently advanced.

I have satisfied myself that the rays are not generated by the formation of new matter in space, a process which would be like water running up hill. According to my observations, they come from all the suns of the universe and in such abundance that the part contributed by our own sun is very insignificant by percentage. Some of these rays are of such terrific power that they can traverse through thousands of miles of solid matter.

Be aware that when you read Tesla's work on rays, etc. that his discoveries and understanding grew over time. So, material from say 1890 may contain different statements than material from say 1930.

Anyway, it seems to me that "ray" phenomenon are related to "impulses" and "particles", which can penetrate "transparant" material, depending on the size of the particles. But normal harmonic "alternating" waves behave very much like sound waves.

And this is also what Eric suggested when talking to Dave:

Yahoo! Groups

Eric suggested more authors to study. He said look up the work of Helmholtz, "Sensations of Tone" (This seems to give insight into Eric's understanding of the music/electric relation) and that Helmholtz gave the equations for longitudinal transmission. Also Tesla liked Helmholtz. He also said to study everything by J.J. Thomson, especially "Experimental Researches into Electricity and Magnetism" (The only thing that I could find was "Elements of the mathematical theory of electricity and magnetism", maybe this is what he meant?).

[jpolakow]

Tesla transmission through the earth

Hi lamare,
I spoke with Eric today and he wanted me to send the following transmission to you regarding your moonbounce project. He thinks the moon bounce will be difficult (due to it not having been done before), and thinks it would be easier to take an already engineered approach such as sending a longitudinal signal through the Earth:
Any competent engineer should be able replicate the transmission of longitudinal waves through the ground. Moon bounce gives the most definite results, but there's no existing engineering information available regarding how to do it. The 160 HAM band coils are shown in the longitudinal wave Borderland videos- flat spirals. The construction techniques are shown. The Theory of Wireless Power has calculations for the solenoid coil. All you have to do is connect the neutral side of the coil with the ground system and excite the coil - with HAM rig. Eric already did this on 40 meters between Bolinas and Los Angeles. Picture a loaded vertical antenna, coil at the bottom, tower in the air, shorten the antenna, make the coil bigger, keep going to the limit, hence a resonant coil, and no antenna. In this condition the ground current will be maximum. Hereby is effected longitudinal transmission into the ground. Ground Requirements:
Need a really good ground - 120 wires in the ground in a 50 to 100 foot square. It's that simple, not that complicated. One coil transmits to the other through the ground, longitudinally with no antenna.

Eric can read the forum now so I'm sure he will see any reply from you

[jpolakow]

Hi Lamare,
Eric wanted you to see these pages out of Steinmetz's book "Transient Electrical Phenomena and Oscillations". Pg 400:

[LetsReplicate]

Near field vortex?!?!

As I was reading this thread (specifically the supposed document from Tesla) and I got to thinking about intentionally producing longitudinal interference. Now I have never personally witnessed a longitudinal-only wave (only seen them claimed to be on video), but I did read a paper by an MIT engineer that described the Hutchison effect.

The Hutchison effect is caused by two longitudinal transmitters which are having their phase angle "rotated" at high frequency. It seems to me that would cause a "1 dimensional" vortex in the ether at the center field between the transmitters. To add a second dimension to this (and possibly create ball lightning if enough energy is added into it), all you would need to do is add a third transmitter to create a triangle: then use a "circular" phase angle. That would allow you to rotate an "infinitely small" high voltage point (in the area where the wave compresses to a point) along a 2 dimensional plane which should cause the ether itself to begin rotating with it (form a current because the "forward<->backward" motion of the longitudinal wave is a current instead of a magnetic field). Add enough current to the ether and it should start to act like a magnetic bottle allowing you to put as much energy as you want inside. Using a forth Tesla coil above or below the plane (or possibly a specific phase angle signal?), you could then "launch" the vortex upward. I have NO idea how you'd be able to know it it left the earth's atmosphere though.

Just an idea of course, mostly thinking out loud, I'm aware Hutchison was working with in the THF band when he was messing with matter (or at least the phase variance was in the THF band, but I don't know what his main frequency was off-hand).

Assuming the Tesla document wasn't a forgery, would there be any chance that is right!?!?!?!? I welcome dissenting opinions.

[exnihiloest]

All experiments pretending to show longitudinal waves are perfectly explained by the coupling of resonant circuits in near field. Maxwell's electrodynamics perfectly modelizes this kind of situation which is called the "quasi-stationary approximation" (the involved dimensions of circuits and distances between them are short in comparison with the signal wavelength). In near field, the source doesn't radiate, the electric or magnetic field expands from the source and contracts at each period of the signal, the energy going back and forth between the field and the circuit(s) but doesn't propagate by itself.
I saw only Monstein who provided an experiment at a much longer distance than the wavelength. I have a long experience as radio-amateur, and I can say that a conventional electromagnetic wave reflecting on the ground could very well explain Monstein's observations. The evidence he pretends to give with his polarization filter is far from being able to discard an EM wave.
As so-called longitudinal waves have not even been demonstrated at some hundred meters distances, imho it is a waste of time to expect for moon-bounce signals and wishful thinking just for fun.

[OrionLightShip]

>>>>As so-called longitudinal waves havenot even been demonstrated at some hundred meters distances, imho it is a waste of time to expect for moon-bounce signals and wishful thinking just for fun.<<<<<


Your login name speaks volumes. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, and even if you are correct; most new technology has been dicovered while looking for something else. To state that any free research is a waste of ones time is a display of ignorance of the past.

You might as well sifay it is a waste of time to get out of bed each day through the logic that you will only have to return to bed.

"geniuses" (sp?) have been overlooking the magic laying in front of them since the beginning of time, just as historians have been rewriting history with each stroke of their subjective pens.

The fun and magic lie in the search. Sometimes, the truth will make itself known.

Good luck with the lifepath you have chosen.

You can reply to this if you wish, but; I can assure you that it will be a "supreme waste of your time".

Orion

[boguslaw]

I heard that power transmission of 1kW and much more was proved via single wire by Avramenko. It looks viable for me. I agree that in near field the same effects can be made with normal EM transmitter but OU is very hard due to radiation in far field region. But I'm not expert...

[OrionLightShip]

I heard that power transmission of 1kW and much more was proved via single wire by Avramenko. It looks viable for me. I agree that in near field the same effects can be made with normal EM transmitter but OU is very hard due to radiation in far field region. But I'm not expert...

As I said in another thread, in reference to Dollard's video showing transmission down onto the beach; I don't know that he wasn't just transmitting through the light bulb and ground plane.

The only way to prove it is through time/velocity measurement showing superluminal transmission. If that can be proven, who cares if it is through the earth or the air! No overunity required, just a waveform thought to be non-existent. I believe in magick (technology and innovation) so I remain optimistically skeptical.

I applaud Lamare's thoughts and efforts what ever may come.

Orion

[jpolakow]

Note to Lamare

Note to Lamare from Eric Dollard-

Glad you like my complex algebra paper. The "square root of minus one" was taken away from the parrot here!

Philo Farnsworth started me on that project in 1980. He stated that I should develop a Steinmetz type of Versor (AC) operator adapted to hyperbolic rather than circular functions, hence a versor (I.C.) operator. Philo stated this as the "Holy Grail" of "Theoretical Electrical Engineering". He then started it off by giving me a book "Physics and Mathematics in Electrical Communication", Perine.

It took me 8 years until I finished "Symbolic Representation of the Generalized Electric Wave". However note that the space versor part is not there , it is at the end of "Theory of Wireless Power". Fortunately The Dumpsters or Olin Bales of SwinePlanet did not get these. They were 8 years of hard work every day on my part.

The entire working Telluric system WAS working at Landers. There WAS your velocity greater than c. It was based upon a navy situation of transmitting direct to deep submerged submarines through water, and through the metal hull of the sub.

Anyway the Mojave Research Facility at 57474 Linn Road Landers, is in the hands of criminals. Our Navy is N.F.G. now.

Steinmetz sphere equations in the "Transient Phenomena" book may be of use. The 1920 edition has the right equations. I think your sphere should be driven by a self resonant coil, cut short to resonate with sphere capacity. Sphere capacity equal to coil self capacity is maximum sphere capacity allowed. Use my formula in "Theory of Wireless Power". No guesswork here, just basic high school math. Forget the physics of gobble-gook. For "Can" antennas if you want what is known as a Transverse Magnetic, TM waveguide mode. Here the dielectric is longitudinal along direction of propagation. See "Radio Engineer Handbook", Terman, and "Reference Data for Radio Engineers" I.T.T. published. Here your waveguide modes are presented. One in particular is very interesting as its lossed decrease with frequency but it is very hard to excite this mode. Check this out as it is directly regulated to your efforts in "moonbounce". Show modes on forum for others to see!

Also a "Tao" has his own great representation of the "Four Quadrant" "Eight Pole" representation on forum.

73 DE N6KPH SK

[lamare]

Hi lamare,
I spoke with Eric today and he wanted me to send the following transmission to you regarding your moonbounce project. He thinks the moon bounce will be difficult (due to it not having been done before), and thinks it would be easier to take an already engineered approach such as sending a longitudinal signal through the Earth:
Any competent engineer should be able replicate the transmission of longitudinal waves through the ground. Moon bounce gives the most definite results, but there's no existing engineering information available regarding how to do it. The 160 HAM band coils are shown in the longitudinal wave Borderland videos- flat spirals. The construction techniques are shown. The Theory of Wireless Power has calculations for the solenoid coil. All you have to do is connect the neutral side of the coil with the ground system and excite the coil - with HAM rig. Eric already did this on 40 meters between Bolinas and Los Angeles. Picture a loaded vertical antenna, coil at the bottom, tower in the air, shorten the antenna, make the coil bigger, keep going to the limit, hence a resonant coil, and no antenna. In this condition the ground current will be maximum. Hereby is effected longitudinal transmission into the ground. Ground Requirements:
Need a really good ground - 120 wires in the ground in a 50 to 100 foot square. It's that simple, not that complicated. One coil transmits to the other through the ground, longitudinally with no antenna.

Eric can read the forum now so I'm sure he will see any reply from you

Thank you for relaying this information here.

To me, that is quite an operation to perform. I don't have much time to build things and I am not too good at actually building things.

I have found some interesting info on Tesla's system. First of all, there's a pdf with some rare notes by Tesla himself:
http://www.capturedlightning.com/temp/Rare_Notes.pdf

I started OCR'ing this pdf, which is not yet finished:
Tuks DrippingPedia : Tesla Rare Notes On Wardenclyffe

And I found an interesting drawing, which shows the whole tower, including the subground system:
http://www.tuks.nl/img/Anderson%20Drawing.jpg
More on these tunnels here: Wardenclyffe Tunnels Investigation

And some guy made a very nice 3D model of the tower, based a.o. on this Anderson drawing:
Free : Tesla Magnifying Transmitter, AKA Wardenclyffe Tower. A Technological Work of Art.
Tesla Wardenclyffe Magnifying Transmitter Tower Walkthrough 3d Animation by Leo Blanchette - YouTube


All right. Now let's draw in the discussion over at the other thread:

The T.E.M. wave is always along the axis of the metallic geometry, tangent to the metallic boundary. Such is given by the “Co-axial Cable”. Conversely, the L.M.D. wave is always perpendicular to the axis of the metallic geometry, normal to the metallic boundary. Such is given by the “Transformer Winding”. The resulting complex propagation of v and u is a spiral with a tilt angle from the metallic axes of the coiled winding. Where T.E.M. waves drag into the metallic (electron flow) the L.M.D. wave bypasses the metallic (no electron flow) hence no Ohmic resistance. The factor pi over two is the composite propagation for only a unique set of parameters. See “The Oscillating Coil” part of the “Theory of Wireless Power” E.P. Dollard. Note here that errors found a way into the tables, but the equations are right. Now why could not the Corum’s figure this out? Why is it they make no reference to any work on this by Blume, Bewely, Dollard, and etc? The Corums, Well?

This may be true when you are talking about ideal metallic surfaces, but in practice you have to deal with the skin effect:
Some Skin Effect Notes

The skin depth is essentially the wave length in the metal. The main thing to notice are that the free space wave length is enormously larger than the skin depth.

Here I posted some things about Schumann resonance in ideal metalic spheres:

I finally found some formula that describe surface resonances occuring on an ideal sphere. We all know them. Schumann resonances:
Schumann resonances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, I entered this formula in my spreadsheet:
http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/Lamare_dipole_calc.xls

Turns out that when I calculate with a velocity factor of 0,91, the formula for the small sphere *exactly* matches the Schuman resonance mode 2 for a frequency of 1286 MHz (which rolls out independent of the chosen velocity factor because the radius of the small sphere depends on the velocity factor, btw), while I am designing the antenna for 1296 MHz.

Based on this, I figured both resonances had to match, so I thought I could theoretically derive the propagation speed of longitudinal waves with this:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post168233

Well, that was a mistake. BUT, the coupling of transverse surface waves with longitudinal waves trough the interior of a non-ideal sphere at the ground resonance frequencies is real as far as I can tell, and certainly if we are dealing with a hollow sphere.

In other words: in practical metals, you can have longitudinal waves going trough the interior of a practical metal sphere, which is consistent with what Eric said.

Now back to Tesla, as I posted here:

<snip>

You can also read Tesla's statement here, which was written in 1906:
The Tesla Magnifying Transmitter

Stated otherwise, the terrestrial conductor is thrown into resonance with the oscillations impressed upon it just like a wire. More than this, a number of facts ascertained by me clearly show, that the movement of electricity through it follows certain laws with nearly mathematical rigor. For the present it will be sufficient to state, that the earth behaves like a perfectly smooth or polished conductor of inappreciable resistance, with capacity and self-induction uniformly distributed along the axis of symmetry of waves propagation and transmitting slow electrical oscillations without sensible distortion and attenuation. Besides the above, three requirements seem to be essential to the establishment of the resonating condition.

1. The earth's diameter passing through the pole should be an odd multiple of the quarter wave-length, that is, of the ratio between the velocity of light and four times the frequency of the currents.

2. It is necessary to employ oscillations, in which the rate of radiation of energy into space in the form of Hertzians or electromagnetic waves is very small. To give an idea I would say, that the frequency should be smaller than twenty thousand per second, through shorter waves might be practicable. The lowest frequency would appear to be six per second, in which case there will be but one node, at or near the ground plate, and, paradoxical as it may seem, the opposite the transmitter. With oscillations still slower the earth, strictly speaking, will not resonate, but simply act as capacity, and the variation of potential will be more or less uniform over its entire surface.

3. The most essential requirement is, however, that irrespective of frequency, the wave or wave train should continue for a certain interval of time, which I have estimated to be not less than one twelfth-or probably 0.08484-of a second, and which is taken in passing to, and returning from the region diametrically opposite the pole, over the earth's surface, with a mean velocity of about 471,240 kilometers per second......"

Note that he estimates a velocity of 471,240 kilometers per second for the surface waves he was using. And this tells us exactly what kind of waves he was using: longitudinal surface waves, which can likely also be described with the formula for Schumann resonances, as I posted earlier for the transverse case:

<snip>

All right. Let's first take a look at all the possible resonances in a sphere like the Earth. There are two kinds of waves: longitudinal and transverse. And there are two ways by which these can propagate trough a hollow sphere: trough the interior and along the surface. So, we got ourselves 4 distinct resonance modes a hollow or non-perfect conducting sphere can support. And you have to keep these properly apart when you want to study or describe these kind of phenomena.

Now that we understand Schumann's formula, it is clear that Tesla's TMT can only work when there are a whole number of longitudinal wavelengths across the surface of the Earth, because otherwise you will not get resonance since the surface of the earth is kind of a closed loop, just like a loop antenna.

Now if you want to use a wire (or coil) in the place of the Earth and you want to mimic Tesla's TMT, you do want to make sure that you take your wire a whole number times 1/2 longitudinal wavelength for your chosen frequency. You can take 1/2 lambda with a wire, because as far as I can tell it doesn't matter wheter or not transmitter and receiver are in phase when they are not radiating into space and you want to make sure you have longitudinal waves along your resonating wire, because a transverse resonating wire radiates like a properly designed antenna. Not a good idea...

So, when we are talking about transmitting waves trough the Earth, I sincerely doubt these are longitudinal by definition.

As far as I can tell, you can emit both transverse as well as longitudinal surface waves from basically "an antenna burried upside down in the ground". I don't think it is stated explicitly in the rare Tesla notes posted above, but I do think Tesla designed his subground system to be resonating in a longitudinal resonance mode.

Interesting detail is that he burried a disc-like structure at the bottom of his "antenna", which is exactly what I intend to put on top of my transmitter antenna in my longitudinal cantenna design, which is essentially a 3/4 lambda open pipe resonator with a diameter such that it cannot act as a transverse wave guide, BUT should be perfect as a longitudinal waveguide. And this thing is then fed by a 1/4 lambda whip, loaded on top with a small dish, like a 2 cents copper Euro coin.

So, I'm not going to continue with my spherical design. First of all, it is difficult to make, and secondly it radiates in all direction, so there is no way I'm going to get permission to mount that in the 25 meter dish we have at our disposal, basically in my back yard (less than 2 hours drive).