Who performs the first longitudinal Moon-Bounce in history?

[s e t h]

\o/ go Dave45!!!

[lamare]

The cats out of the bag.

Very cool stuff, Dave.

I have seen some experiments with star-shaped coils before, but your vortex in water (at about 0 degrees Celsius??) is very interesting. How do you drive the coils?

Either way, what you are showing is all about the nature of the magnetic field, which is a rotation in/of the aether. It is not directly applicable for my moon-bounce project, because the goal is to work with longitudinal waves which do not have a magnetic (rotational) component. See my posts here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post230287
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post230301


I think your experiments connect nicely to the work of David LaPoint, who experimented with magnets in a vacuum chamber and was able to create a sun-like structure in the laboratory:
David LaPoint - YouTube

Very interesting video's.

However, as I said, this is not directly applicable for my moon-bounce experiment, which is what this thread is about. So, if you want to discuss this stuff, I would appreciate if you start another thread in order to keep this thread a bit more on topic. Please do post a link to your thread, if you make one. I am interested in your work, but I'd rather keep this thread a bit on topic.

[Dave45]

Hey Lamare not a problem

[lamare]

As I posted on the Eric Dollard thread, I did some calculations and simulations with a TM_01 mode waveguide:

Further, I finally found some time to work on the moon-bounce project again. I simulated a TM_01 mode "cantenna", whereby I chose the radius to be 10 cm, thus a diameter of 20 cm. For that diameter, we get a "group velocity" of sqrt(3) times the speed of light using the formulas from Terman's Radio Engineers Handbook at the design frequency of 1296 MHz:

When I take the length of the waveguide to be 3/4 of the group wavelength (about 27 cm, IIRC), I get a nice dip at the design frequency of 1.3 GHz of about -16 dB in the s-parameters.

The far-field simulation shows no radiation in the length direction of the waveguide, but the transformation by which the far fields are computed - after the near-field calculations are finished - does not account for the existence of longitudinal waves and is therefore unreliable.

I will try and make two of these waveguides and perform some measurements the coming weeks/months. I have a low-power 23cm ATV transmitter, an old analog satellite receiver and a "sat finder" power meter, so I can do some experiments when I get all that up and running.

I put the formulas from table 7 into a spreadsheet, which you can find here: http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/TM_01_Mode_...guide_calc.xls

I calculated the dimensions using a velocity factor of 0.92, which was obtained by simulating a 1/4 wave whip antenna (the probe). The calculated length for the whip was 5.783 cm (calculating with c=299792458 m/s), while the optimal length as simulated was 5.336 cm.

The calculated (and simulated) length of the waveguide is 27.7 cm for the design frequency of 1296 MHz. Furthermore, for calculating the desired group wavelength, I calculated with a propagation speed of sqrt(3) * c for the propagation speed of longitudinal waves, instead of the pi/2 * c I used earlier, because of the theoretical basis for that (see post quoted above).

Some more on this velocity factor in this post:
http://www.energeticforum.com/166020-post37.html

Update:

Some documentation I used:
Directory contents of /pdf/Reference_Material/TM_mode_waveguide/

[lamare]

Simulation results.

I made some screenshots of the simulation results. First of all, a 3D view of the antenna:

The project file for CST Microwave Studio can be found here:
http://www.tuks.nl/Spice/TM_01_Mode_...antenna_v1.cst

Then, one of the most important graphs, the S-Parameters:

S-Parameters for Antennas (S11, S12, ...)

In practice, the most commonly quoted parameter in regards to antennas is S11. S11 represents how much power is reflected from the antenna, and hence is known as the reflection coefficient (sometimes written as gamma) or return loss. If S11=0 dB, then all the power is reflected from the antenna and nothing is radiated.

Here's a handy page where you can convert the S-parameters into a/o VSWR and Reflection coefficient:

VSWR - Return Loss - Reflection coefficient

For a return loss of -17 dB, we get a VSWR of 1.33:1 or a reflection coefficient of 0.14.

For a return loss of -6 dB, which is the value used to determine the bandwidth of an antenna, we get a VSWR of 3:1 or a reflection coefficient of 0.50, which means that half the power sent to the antenna by the transmitter is reflected back to the transmitter. So, according to the simulation, this antenna should be usable between about 1275 and 1335 MHz.


The VSWR plot:

The E(lectric) field at 1296 MHz as seen from the side of the antenna. As you can see, it points nicely in the length direction of the antenna:

The H (magnetic) field at 1296 MHz as seen from the open end of the antenna. As you can see, it points nicely in circles:

What we see is what we expect to see when a TM_01 mode wave is present in the waveguide and it shows that power is being transmitted based on the near-field calculations which should be realiable, so to me this is an encouraging result. Encouraging enough to try and make a pair of these to see what they do in practice. If Eric is right, then we should see a longitudinal wave being transmitted right in the length direction of the waveguide:

Note to Lamare from Eric Dol lard-

[...]

Steinmetz sphere equations in the "Transient Phenomena" book may be of use. The 1920 edition has the right equations. I think your sphere should be driven by a self resonant coil, cut short to resonate with sphere capacity. Sphere capacity equal to coil self capacity is maximum sphere capacity allowed. Use my formula in "Theory of Wireless Power". No guesswork here, just basic high school math. Forget the physics of gobble-gook. For "Can" antennas if you want what is known as a Transverse Magnetic, TM waveguide mode. Here the dielectric is longitudinal along direction of propagation. See "Radio Engineer Handbook", Terman, and "Reference Data for Radio Engineers" I.T.T. published. Here your waveguide modes are presented. One in particular is very interesting as its lossed decrease with frequency but it is very hard to excite this mode. Check this out as it is directly regulated to your efforts in "moonbounce". Show modes on forum for others to see!

Also a "Tao" has his own great representation of the "Four Quadrant" "Eight Pole" representation on forum.

73 DE N6KPH SK

Looks like I should have listened to Eric right from the beginning and should have started with a TM mode waveguide instead.

Either way, I learned a lot so far, even though I chose the hard way to do so.


Finally, the far field at 1296 MHz, which predicts that the antenna radiates the most energy sideways from the open end of the antenna:

However, I don't trust the far field calculations of the simulator, because these do not account for longitudinal waves to exist.

73's!

[lamare]

Testing...

Today, I made two antennas according to the new design. I scored two tin cans of exactly the right dimensions in my mother's kitchen

I made a setup with my old MSX computer as video signal generator, a small 23cm ATV transmitter, an old analog satellite receiver, a television set and a "satfinder" power meter. Of course, this is nothing like professional measuring equipment, but at least I can do some screening.

I did some experiments in my shack. First of all, I was able to transmit the test signal to the sat receiver and make it visible on the TV set, using pieces of about 5,7 cm wire as whip antennas. So, both the transmitter and the receiver work. The receiver even worked without antenna... Then I connected the power meter and played a bit with it. It worked as expected.

Then I connected one of the waveguide antennas to the transmitter and also got a nice picture on the TV set. It wasn't completely stable 100% of the time, but I can't seem to program the receiver with my replacement remote control. However, it's good enough for my purpose.

I played a bit with the wire antenna to try and get some idea about the radiation pattern. I also experimented with a small sphere antenna made of aluminum foil as replacement for the wire antenna. Finally, I played a bit with both waveguides connected, using the power meter.

The results were mixed. At some points, it seemed that a strong signal was present along the desired radiation direction, along the length of the waveguide, and sometimes it seemed like most power went sideways as the simulation predicted. So, no clear results but all in all not too bad.

However, I tested with a distance of about 2-3 meters using 75 Ohm coax cable (which is OK for the receiver which is 75 Ohm, but not for the transmitter which is 50 Ohm) and the transmitter nearby, so there may have been all kinds of reflections on the walls and wires in my shed, which make the measurements unreliable.

So, the next step will be to take some measurements outside in the garden over a distance of about 20-30m.

Now tomorrow is mother's day, so I don't think I will be able to do measurements tomorrow. We will have to save that for another day.

[lamare]

'Twisted' waves could boost capacity of wi-fi and TV

Someone pointed me to an interesting development in radio engineering:

BBC News - 'Twisted' waves could boost capacity of wi-fi and TV

In the simplest case, putting a twist on the waves is as easy as putting a twist into the dish that sends the signal. The team split one side of a standard satellite-type dish and separated the two resulting edges.

In this way, different points around the circumference of the beam have a different amount of "head start" relative to other points - if one could freeze and visualise the beam, it would look like a corkscrew.

In a highly publicised event in 2011, the team used a normal antenna and their modified antenna to send waves of 2.4 GHz - a band used by wi-fi - to send two audio signals within the bandwidth normally required by one. They repeated the experiment later with two television signals.

Here's a picture from the dish they used:

Another article on the subject:
Pasta-shaped radio waves beamed across Venice

A group of Italian and Swedish researchers appears to have solved the problem of radio congestion by cleverly twisting radio waves into the shape of fusilli pasta, allowing a potentially infinite number of channels to be broadcast and received.

Furthermore, the researchers have demonstrated this in real-life conditions by beaming two twisted radio waves across the waters of Venice.
Their results have been reported on March 2, in the Institute of Physics and German Physical Society's New Journal of Physics.

I made a copy of the journal article at my site:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...0vorticity.pdf

It is an interesting construction and I wonder if they may be accidentally transmitting longitudinal waves with this construction. I haven't studied the material yet, so I have no idea whether or not that is the case. Either way, it's an interesting construction....

[lamare]

Some "measuring"

Yesterday, I did some experimenting with the two antennas in the garden over a distance of 25-30m.

I used my old MSX computer as a signal generator for feeding the 23cm ATV transmitter hooked up to one of the antennas:

And I used a Nokia Sat 1200S satellite receiver, hooked up to the other antenna at the other end of the garden. If anyone has some info on how to program this thing, I'd be grateful, btw.

It was pretty hard to receive anything and there did not appear to be a beam in the length direction of the antennas. It appeared as though the simulator was correct and most of the radiation went sideways.

Then I found out that the receiving antenna was hooked up to the wrong antenna input of the reciever.

Because I did not have an original remote control, I had to switch the receiver to a channel which happened to already be at the frequency of the transmitter. Now because the receiver has two antenna inputs, I did not notice that the channel I was using yesterday used the other input. I already noticed that my satfinder did not appear to get any power, but it did not cross my mind I may have been using the wrong input...

When I switched to the channel I used previously, I suddenly got a christal clear reception, such that it did not matter in any way how I was aiming the antennas.

So, I will have to reduce the transmission power before I can do any reasonable measurements. And I may also have to use 50 Ohm Coax instead of 75 Ohm between the transmitter and the antenna, since it may very well be that it is actually the coax cable acting as transmitter antenna.

In other words: it looks like most of the energy is transmitted as normal transverse waves, be it by the antenna or by the coax cable. It is unclear if any longitudinal waves are being transmitted. If at least a portion of the energy is radiated longitudinally this way, I can see if I can reduce the transverse transmission. If not, I'm back to square one.

So, I will first see what happens if I feed the transmitter with a lower voltage the next time I can do some experiments.

[lamare]

When looking for capacitive loads on antenna, I found an interesting patent which uses a (partial) sphere in an antenna structure:

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Brown...US2059186A.pdf

Related patents:
Directory contents of /pdf/Patents/Brown_Nickle_Antennas/

Also found some interesting info on capacitive antennas:
Directory contents of /pdf/Reference_Material/Capacitive_Antennas/

[lamare]

Got pointed to some very interesting documents regarding longitudinal antenna:

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...rs%20Space.pdf
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...%20Antenna.pdf

And I downloaded the accompanying patents:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...A2469325A1.pdf
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...A2441882A1.pdf


Also some more documents on "faster than light" experiment in the directory:
Directory contents of /pdf/Reference_Material/Fast_Light/

[BoJonson]

Hej lamare!
I'm new here and absolutely in awe of what you guys are doing. I confess that I have only the slightest comprehension, though.

I read many of the earlier posts in this thread regarding waveguides. It occurred to me that you should investigate Viktor Schauberger's work as it might pertain to vortex flow (in the Aether?).

Another thought was the use of a Torroidal shaped antenna coil...

Just curious

[Robert-in-the-UK]

Is it even possible?

Hi,

Is it even possible to transmit longitudinal electric waves between a transmitter and a receiver when either device, but particularly the receiver, is not Earthed? If it has been done then please provide link to the experiment.

The Tesla patents and the modern experimental setups (on Youtube) that I have seen all have an Earth connection on both transmitter and receiver. That is, a planet (Earth) that is common to both transmitter and receiver, or at least an "Earth" wire between both transmitter and receiver.

"Common" is the key concept, because different planets used as "Earth" don't count (or do they?).

If transmission without a common Earthing at both ends isn’t possible, then (it seems to me) that there can’t be any “moon bounce,” nor any transmission to aircraft or spacecraft.

Edit: A further thought: The Moon might be thought of as a mirror rather than a receiver, with the "receiver" actually being the detector back on Earth. OK, then the question becomes: Is it possible to reflect longitudinal waves (in a small-scale lab setup) from, say, a "mirror" (and I don't know what that might be) that is insulated from the Earth. The goal would be to send the longitudinal wave on an arbitrarily long path instead of the usual straight line between transmitter and receiver/detector.

If you'll pardon what may seem a naive question: Could it be that only transverse waves can be reflected from anything? What unambiguous lab demonstrations of reflection of longitudinal waves have been performed?

[lamare]

Hi,

Is it even possible to transmit longitudinal electric waves between a transmitter and a receiver when either device, but particularly the receiver, is not Earthed? If it has been done then please provide link to the experiment.

The Tesla patents and the modern experimental setups (on Youtube) that I have seen all have an Earth connection on both transmitter and receiver. That is, a planet (Earth) that is common to both transmitter and receiver, or at least an "Earth" wire between both transmitter and receiver.

"Common" is the key concept, because different planets used as "Earth" don't count (or do they?).

If transmission without a common Earthing at both ends isn’t possible, then (it seems to me) that there can’t be any “moon bounce,” nor any transmission to aircraft or spacecraft.

Edit: A further thought: The Moon might be thought of as a mirror rather than a receiver, with the "receiver" actually being the detector back on Earth. OK, then the question becomes: Is it possible to reflect longitudinal waves (in a small-scale lab setup) from, say, a "mirror" (and I don't know what that might be) that is insulated from the Earth. The goal would be to send the longitudinal wave on an arbitrarily long path instead of the usual straight line between transmitter and receiver/detector.

If you'll pardon what may seem a naive question: Could it be that only transverse waves can be reflected from anything? What unambiguous lab demonstrations of reflection of longitudinal waves have been performed?

You bring forth many good points and questions. I think it is possible to transmit longitudinal waves between a transmitter and a receiver. Someone recently pointed me to some papers by the Erdmann brothers, which suggest they actually succeeded in doing this:
Directory contents of /pdf/Reference_Material/Fast_Light/

Another example of longitudinal waves is the famous dual slit experiment with light, whereby you get interference patterns. This experiment has been vastly misinterpreted and gave rise to the current quantum mechanics crackpot theory, whereby particles are supposed to be capable of existing at multiple places at the same time, etc. In reality, what happens of course, is the changing of propgation mode from "transverse" particle mode into longitudinal mode at the slits, which is what gives you the interference pattern.


The reflection part is a much more difficult question to answer. It may very well br that longitudinal waves will reflect nicely on a dish and a planet. It may also be that the reflected wave is a "transverse" wave. And it may also be that the waves simply pass trough the dish/planet and hardly reflect. I suspect the waves will reflect though, because in water, for example, longitudinal waves reflect the same way as transverse waves to a wall, etc.

[Robert-in-the-UK]

I understand and accept that longitudinal waves exist and have been transmitted.

My uncertainty, and hence my questions, is around this whole matter of "grounding."

From my (Faraday-like) physical understanding, I can see how both the transmitter and the receiver need something to "push against" in order to resonate from a wave, in the same way that an oscillating spring has to be fixed at one end.

So if the transmitter is sending a wave into space then it is pushing against the Earth, and (from your comment about Wardenclyffe) if it is transmitting into the Earth then it has to push against the aether. Either way, it has to push against something much bigger than itself in order to transmit (or receive, i.e., resonate to) waves.

[kunkmiester]

It's an issue I've looked at before too. I'm looking at a simpler lack though--there are a few video clips of Meyl's boat and airplane, and they seem to be the only ones showing a non-wire connection. All the other experiments seem to use a wire to simulate ground. One of my first plans once I get around to serious Tesla experiments(will I ever?) is to do this.