COP 17 Heater | Rosemary Ainslie

[witsend]

H Mike

If I had to configure an ideal element here I'd have two of the curly wounds? with a third resistor between them. The third resistor with no wire connections and going straight into the water for faster conduction. Just a long thing. All the way through the cylider. Can't get over that there's something that can switch. a Triac? But from the sounds of it it's not fast. I wish MOSFET manufactures would make heavy duty numbers. Then we'd get the benefit of faster frequencies. I shall definitely be watching your thread.

edit BY THE WAY - We made our own resistors here with wire as thick as a shoelaces. Amazing resonance. I actually think that the third resistor would soak up some of that sound we produced. Anyway that was still 10 years ago when I was keen on experimenting. Now I'd sooner die than measure another resistor. But I'll tell you what. We were boiling water quick and cheap.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Two Element Bemf

New thread set up, TWO ELEMENT BEMF, all are welcome and I need ideas as to what is happening.

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Mike - actually I'm very interested in this. that's such an elegant solution letting the one element take the counter electromotive force from the other. But I can't understand why it isn't done at a 50/50 split? Are the two resistors so different? But I think this is really clever. Well done. I'd give my eye teeth to know how you switched the current at those high voltages? We tested utility power but through a variac. Again our best results were at resonating frequencies - but the noise was way too high. Needs some expensive muffling. Have you considered putting in a third resistor? Just see if it'll pick up the energy from the other two. It would have some interesting field effects. A sort of transformer principle. Never tested this - but would be curious to know. In any event. Well done. I'm definitely in the market when you've got production lines going.

Hi Rose

We are using Triacs as the switch, they will handle good current. There are two, one for the on time of the inductive element and the other switches on when the other switches off and discharges the inductive element, bemf, to the resistive element.

As far as the duty cycle, the lowest we could get it was 30% which I am told is a problem of the triacs being used, and yes I think that it would work equally well at 50% or even at 60%, the latter probably the most efficient if you think about the power % reduction, well that is what I am thinking at the moment.

Noise is not much of a problem at the moment, yes there is a high pitch whine but it is barely noticable. The triacs are on a heat sink and they are just warm, they are able to handle 20amps as we use them for switching compressor motors on heat pumps. Don't ask me the number as they have come from Toshiba as part of a computorised switching device on air conditioning for a hotel, but any high rating triac will do, it is only a switch which will pass DC or AC but only in one direction.

The heating elements are both rated at 1.5kw but the inductive element is made as a coil, a spiral wire wound around a ceramic former a bit like the very old electric fires which had a reflector dish with the coil in the middle, us older ones will remember them the other is a common copper rod with a resistive wire running through the middle, quite different.

@Peter, yes I agree with you it would be better in another thread, the problem is untill my ee friend is back the first week in september, I am a bit out on a limb as far as being VERY technical in electronics, but I will give it a go

Mike

[Aaron]

555 circuit

Interesting Joit!



Seems on the diagram, the 0.0033uf cap should be labeled
0.033uf.

However, I would think this would slow down the circuit
or make the duty cycle even bigger? Running test now so I
can't try it.

Anyway, the most recent schematic I posted does
what we need.

@Harvey, I saw your post on giving 12v straight to the chip.
The 555 runs at 85F or so, so I guess as long as it is only that -
just slightly warm, that it should be ok for now.

[Joit]

OMGOMG OH-MY-GOD This Nightwatchman cant even calculate Farads.
0.001MicroFarad are 1 Nanofarad, NOT 1000! 1000 = PICOFarad!
Hardly to believe, he did even did do one Grade in Electronics.

But well, its anyway not the first time, that he is wrong


But the Quantum Article has a Mistake there too, at the Picture it is 0,0033µF
but at the table it says 33nF.
The other Caps are 0,01µF and 0.047µF, like at the Parts table.
I think for the last Circuit postet here, it should be a 0,01µF or 10 nF, too?
The Stamp for it is 101.

[Joit]

@Harvey
Me think, the Chip is pretty stable, i give it hope.
there are other Circuits and Examples, where lesser Resistors are used.
Below is an internal Circuit too, i think, it does handle it.
And the Timer itself dont take much Power, as what i ve seen.

[witsend]

Hi Aaron, just seen the post.

Here in Spain they use a lot of inductive resistive heating elements, they are a spiral wound on a ceramic former and this slips inside an iron tube which is glass lined. This is so you do not have to drain the tank to change the element. These elements are very inductive. The other element I had was a British element and is resistive, we cut a hole in the tank along side the other file pocket and welded a screw flange to accomodate the element. It was pointed out at the time that we probably have quite a large capacitance between the elements as they are so close!!!!!!!!

The rest is as I have explained, we are switching the inductive element on and off using an IC, not 555, and also the same is switching on the resistive element only when the inductive element switches off, and in doing so absorbs the bemf of the coil and heats up. The resistive element only sees the bemf, it does not see the mains supply. Further tests will be coming at the end of the month as to what is actually going on, but it is very interresting and I think more than one effect is taking place. The first thing I think is that the bemf is totally free.

Inductive element 1.5kw
Resistive element 1.5kw
Duty on inductive 30%
Duty on resistive 70%
Reduction in power consumption over base line of direct power to inductive element only= 39% over same time period and temp: differencial

Any thoughts anyone?

Mike

Mike - actually I'm very interested in this. that's such an elegant solution letting the one element take the counter electromotive force from the other. But I can't understand why it isn't done at a 50/50 split? Are the two resistors so different? But I think this is really clever. Well done. I'd give my eye teeth to know how you switched the current at those high voltages? We tested utility power but through a variac. Again our best results were at resonating frequencies - but the noise was way too high. Needs some expensive muffling. Have you considered putting in a third resistor? Just see if it'll pick up the energy from the other two. It would have some interesting field effects. A sort of transformer principle. Never tested this - but would be curious to know. In any event. Well done. I'm definitely in the market when you've got production lines going.

[Harvey]

Hi Aaron,
The problem with that reduction is when the pot is zeroed out and the 555 is in the discharge state, you are dropping 12V across that 110 Ohm resistor through the chip. That is why I moved the discharge wire to the other side of the fixed resistor and increased it back to 1K.

Cheers,

[Aaron]

schematic clean up

Update on schematic - I didn't change anything but I cleaned
up the schematic near the filter cap because
it was kind of jumbled there as well as some of
the connection.

I also re-labeled the 555 so it is easier for anyone to see
the what is what.

[Joit]

I will rebuild this Timer Circuit too, right now i did build up 3, but they are handy anyway, nothing wrong, to get one more or less.

But i think i will replace the Cap with an adjustable one, for any case.
But need to order few more 555chips, a few PG50, because i buried again one, and couple fast Diodes.
Conrad got the irfpg50 too, but i guess i need 5000 Volt Transistor, to be safe.

witsend, yes, that was, what i did mean
>>I agree that the heat is a function of the current.

It more or less the current, what is moving through, or even 'something'.
Just thinking about, when you got thicker Wires, you can push a lot more Amps through.

[Aaron]

quantum schematic update

Thanks Harvey,

Here is another update of the schematic.

All I did was just reduce the 1.5k resistor I had down to 110 ohms
and it gives me every range that is needed for duty cycle and
frequency.

Anyway everyone, this might be the final circuit that seems to
deliver the exact ranges needed. It is final for now at least. lol

[Peter Lindemann]

Fantastic

Hi Aaron, just seen the post.

Here in Spain they use a lot of inductive resistive heating elements, they are a spiral wound on a ceramic former and this slips inside an iron tube which is glass lined. This is so you do not have to drain the tank to change the element. These elements are very inductive. The other element I had was a British element and is resistive, we cut a hole in the tank along side the other file pocket and welded a screw flange to accomodate the element. It was pointed out at the time that we probably have quite a large capacitance between the elements as they are so close!!!!!!!!

The rest is as I have explained, we are switching the inductive element on and off using an IC, not 555, and also the same is switching on the resistive element only when the inductive element switches off, and in doing so absorbs the bemf of the coil and heats up. The resistive element only sees the bemf, it does not see the mains supply. Further tests will be coming at the end of the month as to what is actually going on, but it is very interresting and I think more than one effect is taking place. The first thing I think is that the bemf is totally free.

Inductive element 1.5kw
Resistive element 1.5kw
Duty on inductive 30%
Duty on resistive 70%
Reduction in power consumption over base line of direct power to inductive element only= 39% over same time period and temp: differencial

Any thoughts anyone?

Mike

Mike,

This is fantastic!!! My only thought is to start a new thread to discuss your "industrial scale water heater" so this thread can continue to focus on the replications of Rosemary's original circuits. What you are doing is what I have wanted to start exploring!!!

Peter

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Hi Michael,

You mentioned the water heater elements are actually inductive resistors. I never knew that. I thought they were some straight resistive element.

It that the case in the states? Are all the elements simply inductive resistors?

If so, that explains a lot!

If it is operating at 60Hz for example at 220v, then it probably has horrible power factor and simply correcting with the right capacitor will probably drastically increase the efficiency.

My tank probably uses 3500 range when it is on. By simple power factor correction, it will probably only use 2500.

I always thought they were 100% efficient at making heat because I thought it was some straight non-inductive heating element.

Hi Aaron, just seen the post.

Here in Spain they use a lot of inductive resistive heating elements, they are a spiral wound on a ceramic former and this slips inside an iron tube which is glass lined. This is so you do not have to drain the tank to change the element. These elements are very inductive. The other element I had was a British element and is resistive, we cut a hole in the tank along side the other file pocket and welded a screw flange to accomodate the element. It was pointed out at the time that we probably have quite a large capacitance between the elements as they are so close!!!!!!!!

The rest is as I have explained, we are switching the inductive element on and off using an IC, not 555, and also the same is switching on the resistive element only when the inductive element switches off, and in doing so absorbs the bemf of the coil and heats up. The resistive element only sees the bemf, it does not see the mains supply. Further tests will be coming at the end of the month as to what is actually going on, but it is very interresting and I think more than one effect is taking place. The first thing I think is that the bemf is totally free.

Inductive element 1.5kw
Resistive element 1.5kw
Duty on inductive 30%
Duty on resistive 70%
Reduction in power consumption over base line of direct power to inductive element only= 39% over same time period and temp: differencial

Any thoughts anyone?

Mike

[Aaron]

another quantum circuit video test

Another short vid showing the oscillation effect on screen up close.
It doesn't settle at zero - ALWAYS LOOK FOR THIS. Zoom in enough to verify it is not settling at zero. If you have that and there is no space from one pulse/spike to the next, then you have the real oscillation necessary for this circuit to show the biggest gains.

YouTube - Quantum Circuit 555 test on Rosemary Ainslie COP 17 Heater Circuit

[Aaron]

oscillation

@Aaron - interesting to read that it's the "original" Ainslie circuit that only seems to produce the aperiodic waveform. While my BU208 circuit seems to produce a far better signal than my lone PC50 mosfet did, try as I might, I cannot get it to do anything unusual

Hi Sprocket,

When I finally built the quantum circuit and tested it out, I had to laugh pretty hard. One of those things that goes full circle. I'm really glad I didn't built it first though because I learned so much.

It does do the aperiodic waveform without all the spikes in between. With Peter's circuit, I can get the aperiodic waveform with as many spikes as I want between pulses. Will just have to do the tests later to see if those spikes (each is a ringing waveform) actually add to or take away from results.

This quantum circuit does give much more aperiodicity to the pulses if set to do so. However, in full blown steady oscillation, it seems to be very periodic in frequency but the amplitude seems to vary quite a bit when seeing enough samples.

Not sure about any other mosefets than the one I'm using but it definitely needs to be at preferable frequencies and duty cycles for each setup...and of course combined with the right gate resistance. Everything happens within the first 100 to 200 ohm range at the gate. No more is needed.

With zero resistance at gate, it oscillates really easy. However, it isn't too efficient. With a little resistance it dampens the oscillation. THEN, just past that with a little more resistance, it is back in oscillation, this is where we want it. At that point - it only oscillates if frequency and duty cycle is just right.

So 0 resistance oscillation, little resistance no oscillation, little more oscillation (this is the area we want only when frequency and duty cycle is just right.